RTE Primetime on 'Housing Crisis'

Idioteque

Just watching this now, some interesting things coming out of it...if you can put up with the melodramic narration with sad music on the opening piece.

Developer Brian McKeown who owns lots of development land in Swords: "Currently building 56 apartments....currently wouldn't stack up to sell because prices aren't strong enough...current 2 bed prices in Swords are between €130k and 160k, I can't construct it for that so there'd be no margin"...he's says he'll rent them all.
He also blames the central bank rules and "particularly the 3.5times salary restriction"

Tom Parlon "the banks are extremely cagey about lending to developers now"....no sh1t Tom!!

God, think I'll read some Sindo articles to boil my blood even further...

At least Conor Skehan is a voice of reason badly needed....

MarkAnthony

I caught some of it. Then I started watching the Episode of Star Trek I recorded today and was brought back closer to reality!

The beardy bloke did seem to have some good points though, no not Riker.

fret_wimp2

Shock Horror - A developer thinks the problem is buyers should be able to borrow much more than current lending rules will allow.

No thought however on:
-why prices of even 1 & 2 bed apartments in swords are beyond the reach of the vast majority.
-why building costs are so high.
-what else could be pushing up the costs of property beyond the attainability of regular people under the 3.5x salary rule.

gaius c

Building in Ireland is like the opposite of Moore's law, in that improvements in technology and working practices exponentially increases rather than decreases the price.

In any other medium-sized European city, the notion that apartments in the far subhurbs should cost six figure sums would be considered preposterous. The sooner 3D printing technology puts these chancers out of business, the better.

MarkAnthony

Is €150,000 really that propsterous though? As I stated in the other thread compared with other European cities we seem preety cheap. I'd welcome an opposing point of view backed up with property listings.

That said what is going on with building costs? It seems mad a profit can't be made at that price.

BoJack Horseman

MarkAnthony wrote: »

That said what is going on with building costs? It seems mad a profit can't be made at that price.

I don't have data, but its my understanding that the construction of a generic property costs much more today vs 15 years ago.

Again, much of this extra cost is government mandated by regulations.

fret_wimp2

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

I don't have data, but its my understanding that the construction of a generic property costs much more today vs 15 years ago.

Again, much of this extra cost is government mandated by regulations.

What do you mean "government mandated by regulations"? Do you have an example?

BoJack Horseman

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

What do you mean "government mandated by regulations"? Do you have an example?

Eg: Minimum insulation standards wrt material used & thickness.

Tefral

fret_wimp2 wrote: »

What do you mean "government mandated by regulations"? Do you have an example?

Dwellings these days are practically passive houses, the levels of airtightness, the insulation etc are far above other EU countries.

To get an Airtight house the works must be done with extra diligence and care, this is a labour costs that equals more money. Our VAT rate here at 23% doesn't help in the purchase of materials either.

Im a Quantity Surveyor so have seen the costs of building materials rise exponentially as the standards rise.

Idbatterim

they didn't do much to address building prices during the downturn. Unit sizes are still too big IMO, should be 40sq m or so for one beds. Also allow properly build and sized family friendly apartments, this would involved several things, but one of the most important in my mind, would be a living room separate from the current, kitchen / dining / living room, where nobody has any space... Then if Dublin had adequate transport network, mainly massive improvements needed to rail, they could build serious amounts of affordable property within close proximity to these lines...

Im a Quantity Surveyor so have seen the costs of building materials rise exponentially as the standards rise.

This makes sense, what is the current requires standards, there should be a middle ground, doesn't need to be an A, but should be below a C IMO...

the dark phantom

For a nation with such an abundance of land and very few people we shouldn't be in this situation.

Patrick Derrymore

Knock village has huge property lying idle contents and restaurants would accommodate at least 2000 people has everything in Knock .If Irish don't go there then would be ideal for Syrian refugees .What a just way to help refugees and relieve millionaires of their Church pilgrim moneys in a positive way.

Tefral

Idbatterim wrote: »

they didn't do much to address building prices during the downturn. Unit sizes are still too big IMO, should be 40sq m or so for one beds. Also allow properly build and sized family friendly apartments, this would involved several things, but one of the most important in my mind, would be a living room separate from the current, kitchen / dining / living room, where nobody has any space... Then if Dublin had adequate transport network, mainly massive improvements needed to rail, they could build serious amounts of affordable property within close proximity to these lines...

This makes sense, what is the current requires standards, there should be a middle ground, doesn't need to be an A, but should be below a C IMO...

I think the main problem is density, there's no want or will to build up in Ireland when there should be mixed developments of apartments, housing and duplex units with the apartment blocks being 5 stories high at least.

I price a lot of work for a developer in London and they make a right good job of mixing and matching low rise and high rise within the same development. Those who want to live in a house with a garden etc pay more and the high density is mostly a mix of social and renters.

the dark phantom

Patrick Derrymore wrote: »

Knock village has huge property lying idle contents and restaurants would accommodate at least 2000 people has everything in Knock .If Irish don't go there then would be ideal for Syrian refugees .What a just way to help refugees and relieve millionaires of their Church pilgrim moneys in a positive way.

That's not a bad idea although there wouldn't be much in the way of job opportunities for them in a rural area. But I like your way of thinking, We have hundreds of dead villages and towns that still barely recovered from the famine immigration could restore some life to them.

testaccount123

cronin_j wrote: »

Dwellings these days are practically passive houses, the levels of airtightness, the insulation etc are far above other EU countries.

To get an Airtight house the works must be done with extra diligence and care, this is a labour costs that equals more money. Our VAT rate here at 23% doesn't help in the purchase of materials either.

Im a Quantity Surveyor so have seen the costs of building materials rise exponentially as the standards rise.

How come all the apartments built in the bubble were rubbish quality then?

Tefral

testaccount123 wrote: »

How come all the apartments built in the bubble were rubbish quality then?

Most of the regs were changed after 2011 that affected this.

Ie.

Part D - Materials and Workmanship 2013
Part E - Sound 2014
Part L - Conservation of Fuel & Energy 2011 (this is the biggest single influence)

The bubble burst in 2008 nearly all of the regs have been updated since then

BoJack Horseman

cronin_j wrote: »

Most of the regs were changed after 2011 that affected this.

Ie.

Part D - Materials and Workmanship 2013
Part E - Sound 2014
Part L - Conservation of Fuel & Energy 2011 (this is the biggest single influence)

The bubble burst in 2008 nearly all of the regs have been updated since then

Is it possible to compare the sq/ft construction cost in 2000 vs 2015 with all the coat increases considered?

Tefral

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Is it possible to compare the sq/ft construction cost in 2000 vs 2015 with all the coat increases considered?

I have all the info somewhere on Sq/Ft Costs but I dont have it to hand so ill show you the Tender Price Index for Buildings using 98 as a starting point.

Just as a note, material prices never really dropped, (With the exception of steel) what dropped was labour costs.

my friend

gaius c wrote: »

Building in Ireland is like the opposite of Moore's law, in that improvements in technology and working practices exponentially increases rather than decreases the price.

In any other medium-sized European city, the notion that apartments in the far subhurbs should cost six figure sums would be considered preposterous. The sooner 3D printing technology puts these chancers out of business, the better.

3D printing yah, pass the pipe

If you want a legitimate gripe examine the fact that around 40% of any price you choose consists of VAT and development levies imposed by local councils

Imagine 40% for no sweat? That's the real scandal

gaius c

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Is €150,000 really that propsterous though? As I stated in the other thread compared with other European cities we seem preety cheap. I'd welcome an opposing point of view backed up with property listings.

That said what is going on with building costs? It seems mad a profit can't be made at that price.

You're comparing Dublin with cities that have populations of 5 million plus, aren't you?

gaius c

my friend wrote: »

3D printing yah, pass the pipe

If you want a legitimate gripe examine the fact that around 40% of any price you choose consists of VAT and development levies imposed by local councils

Imagine 40% for no sweat? That's the real scandal

Good job you ignored my point that Irish building appears to be the only industry that gets more expensive with improved technology and work practices. Everybody else is using technology to become more competitive while builders seem to think it's an excuse to pad margins.

MarkAnthony

gaius c wrote: »

You're comparing Dublin with cities that have populations of 5 million plus, aren't you?

Nope, I compared it with Edinburgh, Oxford and can't remember the other one in the Property Market 2015 thread. Edinburgh according to the amazing source that all scientists use - Wikipedia - has a very simialr population.

As I say though, feel free to prove me wrong I'm looking for a counter opinion.

hmmm

I must be confused, I seem to have woken up in 2006 and turned on RTE. We need tax breaks for property. First time buyers need to be able to borrow 4 and 5 times their salaries. We need to get the ladder moving again!

If the politicians had stopped talking over each other there was some good points made. Force developers to use or lose the land they have received planning permission on. Reduce the cost of building by cutting the myriad levies and contributions to social housing. Build more smaller places, 1 and 2 beds. Build in the city and not 5 bed detached houses in Howth.

MarkAnthony

hmmm wrote: »

I must be confused, I seem to have woken up in 2006 and turned on RTE. We need tax breaks for property. First time buyers need to be able to borrow 4 and 5 times their salaries. We need to get the ladder moving again!

If the politicians had stopped talking over each other there was some good points made. Force developers to use or lose the land they have received planning permission on. Reduce the cost of building by cutting the myriad levies and contributions to social housing. Build more smaller places, 1 and 2 beds. Build in the city and not 5 bed detached houses in Howth.

Cutting social housing will just kick the can down the road in terms of solving that absolutle cow pat of a problem. It needs to be properly intergrated and diffused around all new builds.

hmmm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Cutting social housing will just kick the can down the road in terms of solving that absolutle cow pat of a problem. It needs to be properly intergrated and diffused around all new builds.

Can we spend just a tiny bit of time worrying about the people who are trying to buy their own houses, and not the group who expect one handed to them. I'm sick of hearing about social housing on the media.

c montgomery

hmmm wrote: »

Can we spend just a tiny bit of time worrying about the people who are trying to buy their own houses, and not the group who expect one handed to them. I'm sick of hearing about social housing on the media.

Exactly!!!

I'm sick of these people looking for handouts while the vast majority of people and scrimping and saving for a house or to pay a mortgage.

We spend 120 million on the homeless per year, enough to rent 6000 homes at 20k rent each per year yet with the media coverage you'd swear we only spend peanuts.

Maybe the media should concentrate on why new builds are so expensive and the huge amount of revenue the government get from new homes. Reduce the tax and prices will come down.

gaius c

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Nope, I compared it with Edinburgh, Oxford and can't remember the other one in the Property Market 2015 thread. Edinburgh according to the amazing source that all scientists use - Wikipedia - has a very simialr population.

As I say though, feel free to prove me wrong I'm looking for a counter opinion.

Ah I remember this particular cherry pick discussion now. Oxford is slap bang in the middle of two enormous urban conurbations and home to the most famous university in the world. This was pointed out to you at the time.

Dublin is about the size of Toulouse but with Parisian prices despite being in a country with the lowest population density in western Europe.

There's no earthly reason for Irish build costs to be so high. Unless of course it suits folk using it to justify high house prices that the market is unable to support.

MarkAnthony

gaius c wrote: »

Ah I remember this particular cherry pick discussion now. Oxford is slap bang in the middle of two enormous urban conurbations and home to the most famous university in the world. This was pointed out to you at the time.

Dublin is about the size of Toulouse but with Parisian prices despite being in a country with the lowest population density in western Europe.

There's no earthly reason for Irish build costs to be so high. Unless of course it suits folk using it to justify high house prices that the market is unable to support.

I remember the other place I compared it to now! Toulouse, thanks for setting that one up for me. Toulouse is about 50 - 100% more expensive than Dublin. We're no where near Paris prices - what are you thoughts on Edinburgh? Again more expensive, similar population and similar country of about 5m people.

Seems I'm not the only one cherry picking

Edit - 1 bed in Toulouse from 5 seconds of searching.

Edit 2 - 3 bed house in prime location in Paris - you could have about 3 - 4 houses in Ballsbridge for that or two embassies.

MarkAnthony

hmmm wrote: »

Can we spend just a tiny bit of time worrying about the people who are trying to buy their own houses, and not the group who expect one handed to them. I'm sick of hearing about social housing on the media.

c montgomery wrote: »

Exactly!!!

I'm sick of these people looking for handouts while the vast majority of people and scrimping and saving for a house or to pay a mortgage.

We spend 120 million on the homeless per year, enough to rent 6000 homes at 20k rent each per year yet with the media coverage you'd swear we only spend peanuts.

Maybe the media should concentrate on why new builds are so expensive and the huge amount of revenue the government get from new homes. Reduce the tax and prices will come down.

This is a very short sighted view for any number of social reasons but lest explore the selfish ones. Rent allowance is a huge drain on the exchequer and means you're paying more tax.

How about we try and focus on everyone. As I've pointed out in another thread, even a couple on minimum wage can buy in what is technically Dublin. Basically what you're saying is as low as me but no lower.

MarkAnthony

If I go to the outskirts of Liverpool CC I can start to find cheaper housing than Dublin. That's a city with massive social problems, very few tech jobs in comparison to Dublin and a much larger working class/semi-skilled/unskilled workforce.

Pop over to Manchester and we're back to silly money again.

Where exactly do you think is comparable?

<mod snip>

the_syco

Idioteque wrote: »

Developer Brian McKeown who owns lots of development land in Swords

Ah. So his issue is the land that he bought in the boom time, that he's now trying to sell with apartments on it, as he can no longer build a few houses and charge a fortune.

MarkAnthony

the_syco wrote: »

Ah. So his issue is the land that he bought in the boom time, that he's now trying to sell with apartments on it, as he can no longer build a few houses and charge a fortune.

I think one of the points that really hit home from Primetime was they were trying to recoup their losses which is driving up cost.

gaius c

MarkAnthony
I've lived in Toulouse. My friends from there were only over in May looking at the Irish property supplements and daft.ie chuckling at the price differences between the two cities to buy but most particularly to rent.

Your examples are ridiculous. For starters, you've quoted English language sites in a French speaking country. Neither is particularly representative of the market.

Hope you had a good night out all the same.

gaius c

the_syco wrote: »

Ah. So his issue is the land that he bought in the boom time, that he's now trying to sell with apartments on it, as he can no longer build a few houses and charge a fortune.

And the golden cleric award goes to the_syco.
That's exactly the problem here. This is all a back door bailout for the banks by trying to con new entrants to the market into reducing the bank's losses on over-valued development land.

MarkAnthony

gaius c wrote: »

MarkAnthony
I've lived in Toulouse. My friends from there were only over in May looking at the Irish property supplements and daft.ie chuckling at the price differences between the two cities to buy but most particularly to rent.

Your examples are ridiculous. For starters, you've quoted English language sites in a French speaking country. Neither is particularly representative of the market.

Hope you had a good night out all the same.

You keep making these assertions without linking the cheaper properties you imply are in cities all over Europe. You keep ignoring the direct comparisons I made to a city of the same size and similar make up. I've invited an opposing point of view but you insist on keep making off hand remarks rather than do some googling. I'm afraid due to a flaw in the English education system I only speak English - I'd be delighted for you to show me where I'm wrong about French property prices.

I'm asking again for the third time now - whats wrong with Edinburgh as a comparison?

As for the wishes of a good night, that I take at face value and thank you I did Not having such a great morning! :pac:

Idioteque

I think aside from what Skehan was saying, I loved the way he looked utterly bemused and wasn't prepared to pretend this was even a viable discussion but more lazy reporting from our illustrious national broadcaster.