RWC 2015 Pool A: Wales vs England Sat 20:00 Twickenham

SmallFrog

So here we have it.
RWC2015 kicks onto a whole new level with Wales vs England

Some interesting selection calls for Saturday. Owen Farrell and Sam Burgess are big decisions - particularly the inclusion of the ‘robotic’ Farrell. But its horses for courses at this point of the group stages. Gavin Hastings believes Gatty will be ‘laughing all the way to Twickenham’ looking at the team Lancaster has picked. Has Stuart pressed the panic button one week into RWC2015? I guess we’ll see who’s laughing at 10pm Saturday night.

A few weeks ago I had Wales way out on front for this tie. But injuries have had a significant impact on welsh hopes of getting through this group. The host nation must be now clear favourites to progress. Or maybe these injuries have solidified this welsh squad?

This is no regular 6N’s tie - this fixture holds one of the main keys to progress to the QF. Cause lets face it, the Aussies will claim top spot here.

England and Wales have met twice before in World Cup combat, claiming one win each, while the overall series of games between the countries stands at 58-56 in England’s favour.

England expects. But so too does Wales…


Wales: Liam Williams, George North, Scott Williams, Jamie Roberts, Hallam Amos, Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies, Gethin Jenkins, Scott Baldwin, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Alun Wyn Jones, Dan Lydiate, Sam Warburton (Capt), Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Ken Owens, Aaron Jarvis, Samson Lee, Luke Charteris, Justin Tipuric, Lloyd Williams, Rhys Priestland, Alex Cuthbert.

England: M Brown; A Watson, B Barritt, S Burgess, J May; O Farrell, B Youngs; J Marler, T Youngs, D Cole; G Parling, C Lawes; T Wood, C Robshaw, B Vunipola.

Replacements: R Webber, M Vunipola, K Brookes, J Launchbury, J Haskell, R Wigglesworth, G Ford, A Goode.

Zzippy

Can't see anything but an England win here myself. Wales will need to play out of their skins, but home advantage and the injuries to key Welsh players should see England through.

efb

Ford dropped for Farrell! Wow!

I think England's physicality and Wales' injury crisis will see the Red Roses through.

Eng by 1-7

vienne86

Ach I can't see anything but an England win, but I'm amazed about Farrel's inclusion in the starting 15.

Really looking forward to a decent contest....fells like we are getting down to business with this match.

.ak

To be honest I'm not amazed by Farrell's inclusion, he gets a bit of a hard ride something's, he's a fairly good standard 10 and I think he has a better kicking game.

But I think Lancaster is mad to make a change there, especially after an injury enforced changed midfield.

Lancaster needs to find a first xv...

efb

.ak wrote: »

To be honest I'm not amazed by Farrell's inclusion, he gets a bit of a hard ride something's, he's a fairly good standard 10 and I think he has a better kicking game.

But I think Lancaster is mad to make a change there, especially after an injury enforced changed midfield.

Lancaster needs to find a first xv...

If I was Ford I'd be livid

SmallFrog

he is - according to reports

SmallFrog

SmallFrog wrote: »

he is - according to reports

Really?

Link?

shrapnel222

Deleted User wrote: »

Really?

Link?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/george-ford/11886144/George-Ford-devastated-and-gutted-to-be-dropped-from-England-team-but-set-on-proving-Stuart-Lancaster-wrong.html

you'd have to expect any young player being dropped to be gutted though. There would be more of an issue if he wasn't

I'm really surprised by that and it's a bit O'Garaesque. I don't see him as being dropped, to me it's more a horses for courses sort of thing. Maybe not.

Upon reading that article however, there is no direct quote at all from Ford, just other people saying what they "think" he is, ie "devastated" but nothing at all attributed to having come from Ford.

It does say he argued his case with the coaches but again, no indication of where that information is coming from.

The reality is, Ford will feel that everything Farrell can do he can do better and I would suspect that he will certainly be disappointed, but I can't see him being outwardly negative about it within or outside the setup.

gucci

With the selection of Burgess in midfield and even Farrell at 10 I expect this to be akin to a battle scene in a transformers movie.
Of course unlike the movie the camera will frequently draw away from the action scene to give the little known character (the ball) its moment of glory as it is repeatedly kicked away into the corners by Farrell.

In saying all that, I have no interest in ever watching a transformers movie again, but I cant wait to see this!

sydthebeat

if england loose this, it will be the first real time that landcasters job will be under threat, and the ford / farrell calll will be front and centre.

SmallFrog

gucci wrote: »

With the selection of Burgess in midfield and even Farrell at 10 I expect this to be akin to a battle scene in a transformers movie.
Of course unlike the movie the camera will frequently draw away from the action scene to give the little known character (the ball) its moment of glory as it is repeatedly kicked away into the corners by Farrell.

Couldnt have described it better myself!
an extremely apt comparison

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

if england loose this, it will be the first real time that landcasters job will be under threat, and the ford / farrell calll will be front and centre.

You're probably right but it's a bit unfair. England don't have a completely dominant team and Wales are bloody good.

England should be favourites but no one would be terribly surprised if they lose to Wales and what's more - they could play a brilliant tactical masterclass and still have Wales come out on top.

Case in point, I thought we played very well in Wales this year in the 6N and did more than enough to win on several occasions, but Wales raised their game ferociously and deserved to win. We had a good team out and whilst not our best or most clinical performance, we were still in good form.

irishbucsfan

That defensive stand from Wales against us in the 6 Nations was probably the best team effort of the competition. It went on and on and on and they somehow kept us out. An incredible accomplishment and a good example of just what they can produce when they are in the right place mentally. It's those moments which make me think they just have that little bit more in the tank than Lancaster's England side.

penybont exile

Really looking forward to this now .......

If we get parity at scrum (I.e. Don't give up cheap penalties and territory) then we have a decent shot at it.

Wales / England games are emotionally charged affairs even when one team has the upper hand - Wales 70's / early 80's & England 90's / early 00's. When there's not much between them as there has not been over the last ten years it ramps up to another level.

This match is the most hyped encounter since the game in 1980 ..... The older among us know what happened in that one. Clear heads might be the key here .....

Hopefully Garces is consistent.

Also it's estimated that there may be 20k Taffs in the crowd .... They'll make a lot of noise and remind our boys that they are not alone.

dub_skav

penybont exile wrote: »

Also it's estimated that there may be 20k Taffs in the crowd .... They'll make a lot of noise and remind our boys that they are not alone.

The Welsh are known for their rousing singing, not sure if I'd pick that one to excite the team, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

dub_skav

dub_skav wrote: »

The Welsh are known for their rousing singing, not sure if I'd pick that one to excite the team, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

In fairness that could be genius by the Welsh. Farrell still looks around 12 so if they started singing Michael Jackson songs he'd probably be looking over his shoulder a bit nervously.

English Lurker

Profoundly nervous. I was very sanguine about this game, believing that all England needed to do was up the intensity, change a few things up front, and that Wales' injuries and a home tie made us comfortable favourites. The team sheets leave me feeling 50-50 as now appear to be playing into Wales' hands and have a weak spot for them to exploit - Burgess' defence. We clearly think we can batter our way through them and I think of Wales' victories over Ireland in 2011 and this spring and think "Yeah... right..."

I think I can understand Farrell, partially because he is a stronger defender, partially because Ford seems to have slipped from peak performance. There is no game plan 'twixt heaven and hell that I would back Farrell to execute better than an in-form Ford, but we don't have that.

I think I can understand Burgess, even though his continued ability to make bad decisions in defence gives me the absolute jitters. Barritt is presumably there to stop Burgess from doing that; between them you have one pretty useful centre, but I believe it's customary to play two.

That we've suddenly gone for the three for them together, overturning the style of the team for the last nine months in a heartbeat, I really struggle with. The best thing about England has been the back three; outside set-pieces, they may never get the ball in space all match. The absence of wingers with serious physicality or a reputation for tracking big runners is quite vexing.

I'm also rather perturbed that given all these changes, he only made one between 1 and 9. England's problems have stemmed from a pack that's forgotten how to scrummage, treat the security of their own ball too casually, and are short of ball carriers who force the gainline. We've changed none of that so it seems quite optimistic to think the problems will stop, unless you believe Wales' pack has been so ravaged that it can't compete. Youngs only compounds that; he likes front foot ball so he can destroy teams single-handed, but is no one's friend if given indifferent service.

Apparently this wasn't all injury enforced. Apparently they were thinking this before Joseph even got injured. Too much trying to go around, not enough going through. It's been said that England's thinking has been shaped by the 6N victory over Wales, which was paved by big carrying up front. Which is true. Somehow it's escaped their attention that we had a pack with three big carriers in that day (Attwood, Haskell, Vunipola) and Saturday we will have one and a half. If they believe Sam Burgess will single-handedly carry that deficit, or that Brad Barritt's actually a bosh centre... the proof will be seen, but I find both positions outlandish.

End of the day, this game will be settled mainly at the set-piece, at the breakdown, and with the kicking duels. Burgess will look a hero if he's put on the right platform and a fool if he's not, most like. I think both teams have some ground for optimism in those areas. To take a Welsh perspective; Tomas Francis vs Marler will be a potentially critical battle, they need a big day from Warburton and probably an even bigger one from Biggar. I'd imagine he's being told to look for the chip in behind. I'd imagine they're also looking to get the ball wide quick to Williams and hope he can get outside Barritt to create the overlap as England will be defending narrow.

Final note - Lancaster being under pressure - his boss has come out and said results were not good enough two windows in a row; he's under pressure there already. The media has cooled on him. For me, the prospect of him going would be my silver lining from an England loss. I think it will be a victory though, just about.

SmallFrog

if England do lose this one, you could parachute in Sir Clive for the rest of the tournament.

I'm sure he'd answer the call. Or is he managing in the English football premiership these days?

aimee1

Slammin Sam was asked what he thought of scott williams in a press conference earlier. His response was "who is he"

SmallFrog

he'll know very soon. very soon...

Koobcam

The build up is reminding me a bit of Ireland v Wales in the 2011 QF. Remember all the issues back then with Sexton/O'Gara, kind of seems similar with the out-half situation this time. I wonder will Wales be happy to be playing against a more predictable player, and also thinking they can use the inexperience of Burgess in defence to break through the English defence. If you look back to the recent six nations game between these two sides and factor in all the Welsh injuries, it's really hard to see how Wales can win this one. On the other hand, they are such a big game team and maybe have more experience in closing out big matches. From an Irish perspective, if we do finally manage to make it to the last four and had to face one of these two teams, I would definitely rather be playing England.

aimee1

Koobcam wrote: »

The build up is reminding me a bit of Ireland v Wales in the 2011 QF. Remember all the issues back then with Sexton/O'Gara, kind of seems similar with the out-half situation this time. I wonder will Wales be happy to be playing against a more predictable player, and also thinking they can use the inexperience of Burgess in defence to break through the English defence. If you look back to the recent six nations game between these two sides and factor in all the Welsh injuries, it's really hard to see how Wales can win this one. On the other hand, they are such a big game team and maybe have more experience in closing out big matches. From an Irish perspective, if we do finally manage to make it to the last four and had to face one of these two teams, I would definitely rather be playing England.

If wales win it will be some result considering injuries. Wales back 3 is ropey. Amos is a newbie and liam williams has only just got back from injury and had little gametime.

Ceadog

Don't understand the whole "horses for courses" argument about selecting Farrell. Last time Farrell and Barritt played against Wales they lost by 30 points. You're not going to get any change by trying to run over Dan Lydiate and Jamie Roberts, they'll tackle you all day and spend the night running over you. You have to play smart rugby to beat Wales, South Africa found that out when they tried to bosh through Wales during the AI's and they failed utterly.

CatFromHue

aimee1 wrote: »

If wales win it will be some result considering injuries. Wales back 3 is ropey. Amos is a newbie and liam williams has only just got back from injury and had little gametime.

He'll prob get carded for doing something to Mike Brown.

.ak

aimee1 wrote: »

Slammin Sam was asked what he thought of scott williams in a press conference earlier. His response was "who is he"

Ugh. I thought I liked Sam, but that's just stupid. Scott Williams is probably the best centre in the British isles right now. If Sam wants to be a centre and doesn't know who is then he's an idiot, and if he does know who is but is trying to play mind games he's also an idiot.

rrpc

.ak wrote: »

Ugh. I thought I liked Sam, but that's just stupid. Scott Williams is probably the best centre in the British isles right now. If Sam wants to be a centre and doesn't know who is then he's an idiot, and if he does know who is but is trying to play mind games he's also an idiot.

Context is everything.

Burgess was asked what he thought of Williams saying he'd prefer to play against Burgess rather than Joseph.

molloyjh

English Lurker wrote: »

I'm also rather perturbed that given all these changes, he only made one between 1 and 9. England's problems have stemmed from a pack that's forgotten how to scrummage, treat the security of their own ball too casually, and are short of ball carriers who force the gainline. We've changed none of that so it seems quite optimistic to think the problems will stop, unless you believe Wales' pack has been so ravaged that it can't compete.

This. The game will be won and lost at set piece and breakdown, excuse the obvious cliche! But England have been pretty poor in both areas in the last 4-6 weeks. And as you said above they seem to be building a game based on areas in the game that they've really struggled in.

Even if England can get parity though in those areas that midfield does not inspire confidence. Imagine being Watson or May when the squad was announced.

That said England have shown the ability to pull a performance out of the bag when needed. And I think they'll need to tomorrow to win it.

English Lurker

molloyjh wrote: »

This. The game will be won and lost at set piece and breakdown, excuse the obvious cliche! But England have been pretty poor in both areas in the last 4-6 weeks. And as you said above they seem to be building a game based on areas in the game that they've really struggled in.

Even if England can get parity though in those areas that midfield does not inspire confidence. Imagine being Watson or May when the squad was announced.

That said England have shown the ability to pull a performance out of the bag when needed. And I think they'll need to tomorrow to win it.

So Mike Catt told me to hold my hands up here for the pass...

You're right that England do have the ability to pull a rabbit out of the horse when it matters, to really play at intensity, I'm hoping that'll fix a few issues but some of them are simply the wrong people being picked.

efb

Cymru am byth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD8G9G4U1L8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwDXINO7jhE

gally74

Just watched slamming Sam, I hope he has a good game, he came across v well

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I've been watching some of James O'Connor's little World Cup videos he's been putting on twitter and mostly there's nothing of note in them but he was talking about this match and said he wouldn't be worried about Burgess at 12 but he would worry about Barritt at 13. I know there's a lot of debate about how interchangeable 12 and 13 are but O'Connor reckons from a defensive point of view they're very different positions and it's harder to defend at 13 than at 12. Granted that may have been Lancaster's thinking in putting Barritt at 13 instead of Burgess. We shall have to wait and see. It would be amusing though if Wales ignored Burgess and ran everything at Barritt instead.

captbarnacles

Lancaster has been suckered into playing bash with Wales which is exactly what they want.

Fireball07

Burgess/Barritt is a very, very uninspiring centre partnership, particularly with Farrell inside.


Howewver, I don't think it's going to matter against Wales who just look too short in their 23 to beat England.

aimee1

Fireball07 wrote: »

Burgess/Barritt is a very, very uninspiring centre partnership, particularly with Farrell inside.


Howewver, I don't think it's going to matter against Wales who just look too short in their 23 to beat England.

Wales look a little short in their xv too. A few guys only back from injury with little gametime and new combinations at half back, centre and back 3.

If they do beat england it will be a huge achievement when you consider the injuries etc and they would deserve to go through

English Lurker

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I've been watching some of James O'Connor's little World Cup videos he's been putting on twitter and mostly there's nothing of note in them but he was talking about this match and said he wouldn't be worried about Burgess at 12 but he would worry about Barritt at 13. I know there's a lot of debate about how interchangeable 12 and 13 are but O'Connor reckons from a defensive point of view they're very different positions and it's harder to defend at 13 than at 12. Granted that may have been Lancaster's thinking in putting Barritt at 13 instead of Burgess. We shall have to wait and see. It would be amusing though if Wales ignored Burgess and ran everything at Barritt instead.

Barritt's racked up a fair bit of time at 13 defensively without ever looking exposed mind. Bit slow for the position, but his decision making is fine.

pc7

I'm truly unsure who I want to win this one. Id rather see England and Wales get out of the group for NH rugby so really don't know what outcome tonight is best for that! Farrell really irritates me so it might just edge me to cheering on Wales. Would have rathered Nigel as ref but I'd pick him for every game. Hope it's a cracker I'm really looking forward to it. Got a headache last weekend watching the 3 matches, I never watch that much tv!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pc7 wrote: »

I'm truly unsure who I want to win this one. Id rather see England and Wales get out of the group for NH rugby so really don't know what outcome tonight is best for that! Farrell really irritates me so it might just edge me to cheering on Wales. Would have rathered Nigel as ref but I'd pick him for every game. Hope it's a cracker I'm really looking forward to it. Got a headache last weekend watching the 3 matches, I never watch that much tv!

The ideal scenario there is Farrell gets made look like a mug or gets trampled by a Welsh player and Ford comes on to save the day.

pc7

Hope Mike Brown has a good game he's a joy to watch and seems a genuinely nice guy in interviews

aimee1

pc7 wrote: »

Hope Mike Brown has a good game he's a joy to watch and seems a genuinely nice guy in interviews

and he is in my fantasy rugger team, North too. try fest please

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

English Lurker wrote: »

Barritt's racked up a fair bit of time at 13 defensively without ever looking exposed mind. Bit slow for the position, but his decision making is fine.

Just listening to Matt Williams on Second Captains and he says the same thing about 12 and 13 being different defensively but he seems to think that's why Lancaster put Barritt there once JJ couldn't play, seems to think he's the best defender they have as on option for 13.

efb

aimee1 wrote: »

and he is in my fantasy rugger team, North too. try fest please

2 tries or less I reckon

aimee1

efb wrote: »

2 tries or less I reckon

yeah i think 18-12/16-15 type scoreline

efb

It will be bish bash bosh!!!

stephen_n

You can understand the logic of playing 10 man rugby, keep it tight, less risk of turnovers to a very good welsh back row. As good as Barrit might be defensively, is he good enough at this level to carry Burgess inexperience, that I'm not sure about. I think Williams ability to unlock the English defense will have a huge impact on deciding this game. Youngs will have to be on top of his game too defensively, could see a few kicks going in behind, trying to turn Burgess and Barrit.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The general feeling seems to be that Lancaster has panicked a bit or at least selected his team to "no lose" rather than win. Do you think, given Wales' injury problems and kind of one dimensional style of play, could England have gone for a more open style of play and actually beaten them? Or are they just not capable of it?

molloyjh

English Lurker wrote: »

So Mike Catt told me to hold my hands up here for the pass...

You're right that England do have the ability to pull a rabbit out of the horse when it matters, to really play at intensity, I'm hoping that'll fix a few issues but some of them are simply the wrong people being picked.

I actually thought almost he exact same thing when I saw that pic the other day. :pac:

If your pack front up and give you good ball your poor selections in the back line will matter less and less, especially with the Welsh injuries. I'd fancy Farrell to win a kicking battle against Biggar too. But it all hinges on your pack who have been really underwhelming regardless of selection.

All that said starting Burgess in one of the biggest games in your season is just wrong. And don't get me started on Barritt.

pickarooney

Does Lancaster believe in Burgess as much as he wants to believe in him?

Tox56

English Lurker wrote: »

So Mike Catt told me to hold my hands up here for the pass...

You're right that England do have the ability to pull a rabbit out of the horse when it matters, to really play at intensity, I'm hoping that'll fix a few issues but some of them are simply the wrong people being picked.

I dont even know if England need to play a great game, at Twickenham you really need to go above and beyond to beat them, England always seem to find a way to win there (against the NH sides at least) and I think theyll scrape it

efb

All eyes now turn to Twickenham...
Thomas v Keats
Tom Jones v Elton John
Gareth Bale v Wayne Rooney
Shirley Bassey v Adele
David Lloyd George v David Cameron