Drink Driving Test Results in Irish

To Elland Back

Great little country we have here http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0921/729338-drink-driving-breath-test/

Alun

Ah, Mihai Avadenei, a good Irish name if ever I saw one.

_Kaiser_

To Elland Back wrote: »

Great little country we have here http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0921/729338-drink-driving-breath-test/

From the article...

he issue arose earlier this year during a prosecution of Dublin man Mihai Avadenei, 29, from Lioscianan, Swords for a drink-driving offence.

He appeared before the Dublin District Court last July, where his lawyers argued that he should have been given a read-out of his breath test from the intoxilyser machine in both Irish and English.

They argued that the print-out submitted to the court was not a duly completed statement within the meaning of the 2010 Road Traffic Act as it was only in English.

Yet another reason why we need to just do away with this nonsense of maintaining Irish as a requirement for every official document/signpost/bus announcement etc.

Every Irish speaker in the country also has fluent native English.. all this will do is add to the paperwork and admin costs

Incidentally, Mihai Avadenei doesn't sound very Irish to me and he was guilty anyway from the test conducted on-scene and back at the station. Ridiculous that he should be let off on this nonsense!

To Elland Back

How must the morale of the Gardaí be, when stuff like this happens all the time.

frozenfrozen

aladeen or aladeen

_Kaiser_

To Elland Back wrote: »

How must the morale of the Gardaí be, when stuff like this happens all the time.

Very true.. I think AGS have a lot of faults myself, but you can only sympathise when some Judge overturns a legitimate prosecution based on a nonsense technicality like this.

Jesus.

It is the law though so technically the Judge is correct. The only way to end this is to change the legislation

frozenfrozen

Was the garda wearing his hat though?????

Toyotafanboi

To Elland Back wrote: »

How must the morale of the Gardaí be, when stuff like this happens all the time.

I have a neighbour a garda and he often says it's incredibly defeating when they burst their bollox to get an offender to court and they see them leave with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

To Elland Back

Personally, I think a person whose primary language is Irish, would need to prove they genuinely cannot comprehend the English version.

Special Circumstances

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Very true.. I think AGS have a lot of faults myself, but you can only sympathise when some Judge overturns a legitimate prosecution based on a nonsense technicality like this.

There is a councillor or td waiting on the outcome of this so he can avail of the same loophole. Can't find the article now. Will try again.

Special Circumstances

Special Circumstances wrote: »

There is a councillor or td waiting on the outcome of this so he can avail of the same loophole. Can't find the article now. Will try again.

Better than a councillor, a senator. FF for what it's worth but they are all about as much use to the country as the other.

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/senator-on-drinkdrive-charge-awaits-test-case-result-31233492.html

Stay classy.

Jesus.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

I have a neighbour a garda and he often says it's incredibly defeating when they burst their bollox to get an offender to court and they see them leave with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

There is a lot of unnecessary sh1te that the Guards have to deal with and this is just one example of it

bazz26

Green Peter

Would turn you against the language, why not have the statements printed in Syrian as well seeing as we are going to intrigate 5,000 of them or in polish which is probably spoken more than Irish in this country

Nichard Dixon

Green Peter wrote: »

Would turn you against the language, why not have the statements printed in Syrian as well seeing as we are going to intrigate 5,000 of them or in polish which is probably spoken more than Irish in this country

Why would it turn you against the language, unless you were already anti Irish, which many people obviously are? The legal point here is that the notice has to comply with the legislation. Rightly or wrongly this is a jurisdiction where you cannot be guilty unless all of the conditions of the law have been complied with, but when the missing condition involves Irish rather than something else it seem to legitimise a flow of neo colonianlist comments.

Would people prefer that the letter of the law does not have to complied with and that something "near enough" would do?

To Elland Back

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

Why would it turn you against the language, unless you were already anti Irish, which many people obviously are? The legal point here is that the notice has to comply with the legislation. Rightly or wrongly this is a jurisdiction where you cannot be guilty unless all of the conditions of the law have been complied with, but when the missing condition involves Irish rather than something else it seem to legitimise a flow of neo colonianlist comments.

Would people prefer that the letter of the law does not have to complied with and that something "near enough" would do?

I don't think anyone here is saying the law shouldn't be complied with. I for one, am merely pointing out that this law is an ass and is being used by the legal profession as a technical excuse to avoid a prosecution, where the defendant is highly unlikely to have been prejudiced because it was not conducted in Irish as well as English.

Nichard Dixon

To Elland Back wrote: »

I don't think anyone here is saying the law shouldn't be complied with. I for one, am merely pointing out that this law is an ass and is being used by the legal profession as a technical excuse to avoid a prosecution, where the defendant is highly unlikely to have been prejudiced because it was not conducted in Irish as well as English.

The law may have various technical parameters, but if these are clearly stated so that this chancer's lawyer can find them, why could the person specifying the document to be printed out not find them? Could such documents not be approved by a Judge or some other process to prevent this happening?

To Elland Back

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

The law may have various technical parameters, but if these are clearly stated so that this chancer's lawyer can find them, why could the person specifying the document to be printed out not find them? Could such documents not be approved by a Judge or some other process to prevent this happening?

Not disputing that, but why have any law stating that it must also be available in an Irish version. I doubt even the most fluent Irish speaking person doesn't fully comprehend the English equivalent.

BMJD

It's not that hard to understand "don't ****ing drink and drive" whether you're an Irish, English or Romanian speaker like the chancer in court today.

expectationlost

S.I. No. 541/2011 - Road Traffic Act 2010 (Section 13) (Prescribed Form and Manner of Statements) Regulations 2011. http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/si/541/made/en/print

the SI in question

The Black Oil

Welcome to Ireland where a general disregard for the law and mé féinery is the prevailing attitude.

seamus

To be fair, it's right there in black and white. This isn't some weird loophole or obscure legal argument. Bureacracy, maybe, but it's an error that is very easy to not make.

The question here is not why the Irish is needed, but why the machines don't print off the correct form. Or if the form is handwritten, how the Garda failed to notice that he had only half-filled it.

expectationlost

seamus wrote: »

To be fair, it's right there in black and white.

where?

wil

Nichard Dixon wrote: »

Would people prefer that the letter of the law does not have to complied with and that something "near enough" would do?

When those letters spell ASS, then yes.
The spirit of the law is to discourage those with too much spirit driving and risking death or injury.
Yet the lawyers get to drive a coach and four....?
This is abuse of the law, a blatant exploitation of a technicality by a Kings Inner for enough shilling.
It should be well within the realms of the judges power to make that case for fairness and common sense.

Drink driving laws are the most contested yet this comes up just now? T'wud drive ya to drink.

TireeTerror

Would this ruling apply to all manner of other laws?

A friend I know just got off the phone, he plead guilty to drink driving last week and received a 2 year ban, deferred for 6 months. He is also due up in court in 2 days for another separate drink driving offence.

He is going to go to court and try and have his guilty plea changed and have the case recalled.


I agree the law should be followed, but allowing people to get away with drink driving is ridiculous.

seamus

expectationlost wrote: »

where?

In the link you posted

seamus

TireeTerror wrote: »

Would this ruling apply to all manner of other laws?

No, just this one. The regulations specify a form that's to be used when someone is provided with the details of their breath specimen. It's the same form in both English and Irish. But it's not two separate forms, it's a single form. So if only the English part is filled in, the form is incomplete. The law requires that the form is completely filled out.

DundalkDuffman

Jesus. wrote: »

There is a lot of unnecessary sh1te that the Guards have to deal with and this is just one example of it

Not motor related but it's easy to see why the Gardai get disheartened. Unbelievable stories like this
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/prisoners-go-free-after-garda-escort-was-late-31528614.html

FishOnABike

The Black Oil wrote: »

Welcome to Ireland where a general disregard for the law and mé féinery is the prevailing attitude.

This ruling, as unpalatable as it may be, shows full regard for the law. As pointed to by expectationlost the relevant SI sets it out in black and white giving a word for word template for how the reading should be reported to avoid any ambiguity. Surely it is not too much to expect the professionals who are tasked with overseeing the laws they expect everyone to follow, to follow the same laws themselves.

Law needs to be clear. The alternative "...arrah sure that's not what I meant at all, it might be what I said but I meant something different and might mean something different again tomorrow..." attitude would be simply unworkable.

expectationlost

seamus wrote: »

In the link you posted

where exactly?

colm_mcm

Guy hired a lawyer who knew he could get it sorted. Amazing this wasn't noticed before.

ohnonotgmail

expectationlost wrote: »

where exactly?

The link you posted says

3. The form set out in the Schedule is prescribed as the form of the statements to be automatically produced for the purposes of section 13(2) of the Act of 2010 by an apparatus referred to in section 12(1)(a) of that Act.

and under the heading of Schedule it gives a template for the statement in both irish and english. It is so straightforward I'm surprised it has taken this long to be challenged.

gctest50

DundalkDuffman wrote: »

Not motor related but it's easy to see why the Gardai get disheartened. Unbelievable stories like this

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-gets-200-hours-community-service-for-assault-on-man-in-santa-hat-1.2360364


A garda has been sentenced to 200 hours community service for attacking a drunk man in a Santa hat during an arrest in Dublin city centre.
Donal O’Neill (31), who has been based at Pearse Street Garda station in Dublin since 2006

wil

seamus wrote: »

No, just this one. The regulations specify a form that's to be used when someone is provided with the details of their breath specimen. It's the same form in both English and Irish. But it's not two separate forms, it's a single form. So if only the English part is filled in, the form is incomplete. The law requires that the form is completely filled out.

If my irish is not too hot how could I be sure that section has been filled in correctly? I couldn't in all good faith sign off on that.
Where's a multilingual dlíodóir when you need one?

Nichard Dixon

The SI is only one page, but the person specifying the program couldn't manage to provide the necessary information, probably because someone decided the Irish wasn't needed, based on their own prejudices. Will that person be subject to any action for having caused this mess? Not on your nelly.

Jesus.

DundalkDuffman wrote: »

Not motor related but it's easy to see why the Gardai get disheartened. Unbelievable stories like this
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/prisoners-go-free-after-garda-escort-was-late-31528614.html

That's true but lets not kid ourselves. There's plenty other stuff that disheartens them too. They have to put up with a hell of a load of nonsense from people with too much time on their hands pestering them with trivial nonsense such as the guy who went to the Police station because he seen someone parked on a path for 5 minutes. They have to waste an awful lot of time on Clowns like that and its just as frustrating and unproductive.

Then they get real cases like this - not irrelevant rubbish - where there's a genuine danger to people and it gets thrown out. I have sympathy for the Police because they often have a lot to deal with.

ohnonotgmail

wil wrote: »

If my irish is not too hot how could I be sure that section has been filled in correctly? I couldn't in all good faith sign off on that.
Where's a multilingual dlíodóir when you need one?

it should have the same info in the blank spaces in both versions so it should be obvious if it has been filled out correctly.

Green Peter

I love the way the attorney general's office and dept of justice distance themselves from these **** ups, time and time again they forward inept legislation after it is supposed to be poured over by the experts, the gardai and the public are being badly served by the state's so called legal experts!

ohnonotgmail

Green Peter wrote: »

I love the way the attorney general's office and dept of justice distance themselves from these **** ups, time and time again they forward inept legislation after it is supposed to be poured over by the experts, the gardai and the public are being badly served by the state's so called legal experts!

what is inept about the legislation? the legislation is clear and straightforward. Even i understood what was required.

nealisalan

Well I think this is great, my myself was caught drink driving 2 months ago, and in only had 1 bottle of beer after work, I was 2micrograms over the limit, and I got 200 euro fine and a 3 month ban. I have the test results in my wallet stating I was over in the limit in plain ENGLISH, is this justice ? Or am I'm entitled to regain my license back? Because of this I had to turn down many jobs because of no transport.

ohnonotgmail

nealisalan wrote: »

Well I think this is great, my myself was caught drink driving 2 months ago, and in only had 1 bottle of beer after work, I was 2micrograms over the limit, and I got 200 euro fine and a 3 month ban. I have the test results in my wallet stating I was over in the limit in plain ENGLISH, is this justice ? Or am I'm entitled to regain my license back? Because of this I had to turn down many jobs because of no transport.

did you plead guilty?

nealisalan

It never went in front of a judge so how could I plead guilty. I just agreed that was what was in my system. But if there saying on the news that if the receipts aren't in both languages they don't count, so I should be clear no?

ohnonotgmail

nealisalan wrote: »

It never went in front of a judge so how could I plead guilty. I just agreed that was what was in my system. But if there saying on the news that if the receipts aren't in both languages they don't count, so I should be clear no?

you really need to speak to a solicitor.

TherapyBoy

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you really need to speak to a solicitor.

Or..you know, accept that you broke the law & were caught, and move on with your life.

Jesus.

nealisalan wrote: »

Well I think this is great, my myself was caught drink driving 2 months ago, and in only had 1 bottle of beer after work, I was 2micrograms over the limit, and I got 200 euro fine and a 3 month ban. I have the test results in my wallet stating I was over in the limit in plain ENGLISH, is this justice ? Or am I'm entitled to regain my license back? Because of this I had to turn down many jobs because of no transport.

You sure you only had one bottle? That's only two thirds of a pint and I doubt it'd put you over the limit.

ohnonotgmail

TherapyBoy wrote: »

Or..you know, accept that you broke the law & were caught, and move on with your life.

that is also an option.

nealisalan

Well I'm not moving on from it because that's literally what happened. And because of being 2 micrograms over the limit it has screwed my life up, with higher insurance and the loss of a good job, I just think it's not fair. But perhaps your right. I was just seeing if I could get the endorsement off the license.

colm_mcm

This guy found a loophole and got off despite driving over the legal limit. The only difference here is that you didn't find a loophole and were correctly banned.

expectationlost

Statement by Minister Donohoe on judgement regarding drink driving case stated in High Court http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2015/statement-minister-donohoe-judgement-regarding-drink-driving-case-stated-high

The High Court ruled yesterday (Monday) on a legal question put forward by the District Court regarding the Prescribed Form and Manner of Statements Regulations 2011 in relation to a drink driving case that came before the District Court.

Speaking today, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Paschal Donohoe TD, said: ‘The advice of the Attorney General’s Office was sought in respect of the need for amending legislation on foot of the judgement in relation to the language of the forms produced by Evidential Breath Testing machines in Garda stations. In the interests of road safety, I have moved immediately to provide the new legislation deemed necessary regarding the form of the statements to be provided under section 13 of the Road Traffic Act 2010’.

The Minister has now signed into law, a replacement Statutory Instrument which provides that the statements may be produced in either the English or the Irish language which was always the objective of the legislation.

this keeps happening to /her

Jesus.

nealisalan wrote: »

Well I'm not moving on from it because that's literally what happened. And because of being 2 micrograms over the limit it has screwed my life up, with higher insurance and the loss of a good job, I just think it's not fair. But perhaps your right. I was just seeing if I could get the endorsement off the license.

C'mon dude. Lets cut the bullsh!t. You had more than 1 bottle didn't you?