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ATH Q-FINAL 1 - Bounty Hunter Vs Mr Nice Guy

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  • 21-09-2015 12:12pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭


    Its the first of the Around The Horn quarter finals and its 2 men who are no stranger to each other, current draft champion Bounty Hunter takes on the previous draft champion in Mr Nice Guy.

    You know the drill by now, here is your question:

    QF - Q1 : Its a New Day...YES IT IS!

    The trio of New Day were floundering as babyfaces in 2014 when they debuted and it wasn’t until they turned heel that they found success.

    Besides New Day, Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn?

    What did this change of direction accomplish and why was it so great?


    After your first post, why would your choice be better than your opponents?


    Have at it lads!

    Who has swayed you most? 9 votes

    Bounty Hunter : Blue Chipper Rocky Mavia to The Rock
    0% 0 votes
    Mr Nice Guy : Ruthless Aggression John Cena to The Dr of Thugonamics John Cena
    100% 9 votes


Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    1 answer just jumped out when I first read this and that is...
    RockY Maivia
    rocky_maivia.jpg

    The Rock, one of the biggest stars ever in the wrestling industry debuted as "The Blue Chipper", the clean cut baby face that was just oh so cheesy and the fans sh*t all over it despite the then WWF trying to get him somewhere by pushed him hard and giving him the IC title and wins over big name people like Bret Hart (by DQ but still). The people hated the Rock at this stage so much so that we got the infamous "Die, Rocky, die!" and "Rocky sucks!" chants during his matches.

    These days it's pretty hard to imagine how much people really hated The Rock but back then he wasn't the most charismatic man in sports entertainment, he was super bland and badly needed a change and thats exactly what he got when as asked about in the question he turned heel.

    This heel turn allowed the birth of "The Rock" as a character as he begin actually showing some character and also started referring to himself in the third person, It was also at this time that he started referring to Kevin Kelly as a "hermaphrodite" for example.

    I will go into it more in further responses but this turn was so good and so important that all these years later you still have people reference it and for example use it as an example for what should be done with current superstars - there were lots of calls for Roman Reigns to be given a Die Rocky Die turn around mania time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,552 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Opening


    First off may I commend Bounty Hunter on a quality choice for this quarter-final. I fear it will be a tall order to sway people away from backing that choice but I do hope my argument will give people pause for thought.

    I'll begin by asking everyone to cast their minds back to late 2002. It was a great time for several people within WWE. Shawn Michaels was enjoying a career renaissance, Triple H was in fine form as the top heel in the company, and a certain young whippersnapper by the name of Brock Lesnar was starting to make his presence felt.

    It was a fine time for many in the business, but one young performer was not having a great time of things. That man's name was John Cena.

    01_johncena_milestone_01.jpg


    Several years ago John Cena gave a candid interview where he talked about that time in his life. I'd like to quote it:
    Back in 2003, 2002, when I was just wearing boots and tights and I was supposed to be the ruthless aggression young good guy, nobody in the company liked me.

    I know Vince McMahon won't admit this, but he wanted me fired, Triple H wanted me fired, everybody hated me. They just wouldn't give me a forum to showcase my talents. I've always been able to connect with the audience if given the ability to speak.

    It's incredible to think that but it's true. Dave Meltzer has noted there were many who wanted to wish Cena well in his future endeavours and you might recall a few years ago an in-ring segment involving Triple H and CM Punk where Triple H said, and I'll paraphrase, 'sometimes you see a guy and you think he's only alright, decent, not up to much, and that guy turns out to become John Cena, the biggest star in the industry.'

    But at this point, that was all a pipe dream. If you recall the way Cena was back then you'd surely agree. He had a good look, showed plenty of intensity, but as he acknowledged himself he had no way to showcase his personality. He was a guy in boots and tights, a plucky babyface. But he was just a guy. If you told someone back then this 'ruthless aggression' underdog would go on to become the biggest star in the industry, few would have believed it. I doubt the man himself would have believed it.

    Then, so the story goes, Cena is on a WWE tour bus and begins doing some freestyle rapping for some of the boys. As luck would have it Stephanie happens to be on this bus and is so impressed that she decides this must become part of his gimmick. This decision changes the future of the WWE.

    Indeed it's an interesting 'what if?' of history to ask, 'what if Stephanie had not been on the bus and had not heard him rapping. How differently would his career, and indeed the WWE, have turned out?'



    The significance



    Even being given the rapper gimmick to perform was no guarantee of success. Anyone who remembers K-Kwik (formerly R-Truth) and his gimmick with Road Dogg will be aware of the perception that the rapper gimmick carried back then. Most expected Cena to be just another goofy undercard act...and yet...

    170px-CenaF-U.jpg


    A remarkable thing begins to happen: it gets over. The rapping, the gestures, the five-kuckle-shuffle, cheating with the chain, etc. It gets over. He winds up the most entertaining thing on Smackdown. This 'white meat babyface' transforms himself into the most obnoxious, yet unmissable, heel in the company.

    Before long he is getting the loudest reactions on Smackdown. 2003 begins with him starting off his new career path slowly - he wasn't even in a match at WM 19 - and yet the year finishes with him as the hero of his Survivor Series team (hitting the FU to Big Show) and suddenly he's one of the biggest babyfaces in the WWE. By the following year he is arguably second only to Batista in terms of popularity, but he quickly surpasses him as the top star.

    It's a remarkable turnaround for a guy that could have been shown the door a little over a year before this.



    The thrust of my argument



    Over the course of this debate I don't know the direction the discussion will go, what path our arguments will take, but I would ask that throughout everything people take heed of the question that beakerjoe posed and that they in particular reflect upon this part in particular:

    Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn


    This I think is the crux of the debate. Remember you are not being asked to determine which of the two guys you like more, you are not being asked to determine which of the two guys had the best career, you are being asked who had the best turn...

    after initially going nowhere prior to the turn?


    With this being the case, I would ask you to consider John Cena's position; his outlook prior to his turn was bleak. The WWE machine were not behind him, he had no championship win to help him in the eyes of the fans, and he had no famous wrestling family name to fall back upon.

    In his own words, as a babyface, the company were thinking about firing him.

    I feel this is hugely important because I want to emphasize to you that John Cena's very position in the company was in jeopardy. This was not just a career blip, not just an irritation, Cena knew that unless he made his heel turn work, there would be no second chances and he'd be gone.

    Yet he turned it around. He saved not just the direction of his career path, but his very career itself.



    Conclusion


    11_johncena_milestone_01.jpg


    It is for the above reasons that I urge you to endorse Cena's turn as the one to get your vote.

    The heel turn for John Cena took on greater enormity than most turns tend to take on because of the dire straits his career was in at that point.

    It is this difference that I hope you will reflect upon and which I hope, ultimately, will secure me your vote.

    Thanks for reading.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    Firstly I must commend MNG on not only a very interesting choice but as with all his posts a very well put together one. He does have a knack for presenting what he is saying in such a way that it is almost hard not to go with him. That said it is my job to convince you not to do so and here is why.

    Firstly I think a lot is being made of a very small time period where Cena worried about peoples perception of him I mean my recollection of Cena's start in the WWE outside of OVW (where iirc he was being really talked up as a future star with his "prototype" gimmick) is pretty much how it was layed out via wikipedia
    Cena made his WWE television debut on the June 27, 2002 episode of SmackDown! by answering an open challenge by Kurt Angle. After declaring that he possessed "ruthless aggression", Cena gave Angle a hard fight and only lost by a pinning combination. After the match, Cena was congratulated by The Undertaker, Rikishi, Faarooq and Billy Kidman.[35][36]

    Following the near-win, Cena became a fan favorite and started feuding with Chris Jericho, defeating Jericho at Vengeance.[35] In October, Cena and Billy Kidman took part in a tag team tournament to crown the first WWE Tag Team Champions of the SmackDown! brand, losing in the first round.[37] The next week, Cena turned on and attacked Kidman, blaming him for their loss, becoming a villain for the first and only time in his career.[35]

    Shortly after the Kidman attack, on a Halloween themed episode of SmackDown, Cena dressed as Vanilla Ice performing a freestyle rap.[35] The next week, Cena received a new character: a rapper who cut promos while rhyming

    Given a great debut vs Angle which won over the fans, endorsed by people like Taker, become a quote fan favourite and then turning heel. Not a single mention of anything negative.

    Ok wiki isn't the most detailed source but compared to the same period in Rocky's development and you have him it described how "WWF fans generally rejected him because of his cheesy character" and that "Audiences became increasingly hostile toward Maivia" not to mention that "Die, Rocky, die!" and "Rocky sucks!" were being heard during his matches.


    It honestly seemed that the third generation wrestler’s career would be deemed a failed project until he turned heel and joined The Nation of Domination in 1997.
    BeakerJoe wrote:
    What did this change of direction accomplish and why was it so great?

    It was after this turn that Dwayne showed a talent not seen with the initial Rocky Maivia character and a talent that not only saved his career but helped make him one of the biggest stars ever...Mic Skills!

    Up until this point the man who is currently fighting it out with Paul Heyman for the title of greatest ever on the Mic in another thread here as Rocky Maivia simply smiled and kept his mouth shut as he waved to the crowd. Imagine that the Rock was not being given any mic time previous to this heel turn so before even delving into how great The nation was or how great his career went on to be simply the fact that this change allowed him to get on the Mic and that "The Rock" as a character was able to be established was truely awesome.

    Since I quoted some of the question there and since MNG spoke about what he thought was perhaps the most important part of it why don't I too delve into more detail with regards the question

    Firstly the example:
    The trio of New Day were floundering as babyfaces in 2014 when they debuted and it wasn’t until they turned heel that they found success.

    I think I've outlined above why I believe Rocky was floundering far more than Cena as a babyface so i'll focus more on the other part of the question.

    and then the only other part (and perhaps the most important of all)
    Besides New Day, Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn?

    Interestingly my opponent chose to only focus on the end of that statement but whose turn was better? was it Cena turning on his partner of how many weeks that I'd wager not many would have actually been sure on the identity of if I hadn't quoted wiki above or was it The Rock returning from injury and joining / helping form The Nation of Domination and his infamous Die Rocky Die promo (Dailymotion 3mins in)

    To be perfectly honest I don't think there is a comparison, the Rocks turn was a huge moment, far more so than Cenas and while both lead to guys being able to develop more, particularly on the mic there was a far bigger fan backlash to Rocky's character pre-turn than Cenas.

    It really has to be the cheesy "blue chipper" Rocky Maivia that the fans wanted to die cos he sucked so much turning into ‘The Rock’ the newest member and clear star of the Nation who was a magician on the mic to win out here.




    back to you MNG


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,552 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Opening remarks



    I'd like to start off by thanking Bounty Hunter for the kind words and I'll happily return the compliment since, as I said before, I think he made a quality selection.

    I'll begin my first rebuttal by saying that when I read Bounty Hunter's first rebuttal, I got the sense that he hadn't quite understood the basis of my choice of Cena. I'm concerned that, to quote Paul Newman's famous line, 'what we have here is a failure to communicate.'

    I don't want that to be the case and I want my opponent and everybody else to have clarity on my thought process so I'll begin my rebuttal by dealing with the points raised, before going on to point out why I hope I earn your vote.



    The points raised



    I noted in the first part of his response that Bounty Hunter appeared to query my earlier assertion that Cena was going nowhere as a babyface.

    He seemed to disregard the quotes I offered from John Cena who said he felt his place in the company was under threat, and the claims by Dave Meltzer and Triple H, that his role in the company was in question.

    I was confused by this because the basis of him querying these claims was an article on Wikipedia - which he acknowledges himself is open to scepticism - and he seems to say that because the article refers to Cena as a 'fan-favourite' that he was therefore popular.

    My problems with this are twofold:

    1) I think those of us who remember this period well, which I estimate to be over ninety per cent of us, know that he was just a bland babyface. He was just there. There's no need, surely, to query that which we can recall ourselves. I sincerely doubt that anyone who remembers the period, and who read the quotes I gave from Cena in my first post, would say to themselves, 'no John, you're being too hard on yourself. You were doing fine as the non-talkative, ruthless aggression guy'.

    2) But the more obvious point to make here: when the Wiki article quoted describes Cena as a 'fan-favourite', it just means he was a babyface. That is, after all, another way to describe a babyface: a 'fan-favourite'. It doesn't mean he was actually a fan favourite. Why would he have been? The man acknowledged himself in the quotes I offered that he just wore boots and tights and wasn't allowed express himself. Not since the late 80s, early 90s has a 'white meat babyface' got over this way.

    I feel like we should be honest here. I'm honest enough to acknowledge that Rock was floundering as a face and the heel turn did him a huge favour.

    I would similarly therefore like Bounty Hunter to reveal whether or not he feels John Cena was floundering as a babyface or did he think Cena as a face in '02 was succeeding?

    In the final section of the post, and here was where I felt we were having some crossed wires, Bounty Hunter seemed to focus on the actual heel turn moment itself. He says:
    Interestingly my opponent chose to only focus on the end of that statement but whose turn was better? was it Cena turning on his partner of how many weeks that I'd wager not many would have actually been sure on the identity of if I hadn't quoted wiki above or was it The Rock returning from injury and joining / helping form The Nation of Domination and his infamous Die Rocky Die promo

    I want to stress my basis for choosing the heel turn of Cena had nothing to do with the precise moment the turn happened. My decision to go with Cena has to do with the turn in general, and its aftermath. I feel that is what beakerjoe's question itself asks us to focus on:
    Besides New Day, Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn?

    What did this change of direction accomplish and why was it so great?

    In light of this, the moment itself is irrelevant. We are asked to deal with the change in direction. Indeed the precise moment of the New Day's heel turn is hard to recall, no? I can't personally recall the precise moment it happened.

    Plus in Bounty Hunter's first post he never touched on the precise moment of the heel turn, so I would contend that this particular point brings nothing to the point of the discussion.



    The Case for Cena



    I want to finish by emphasizing some points when one compares Cena's heel turn with that of The Rock.

    I focused in my opening gambit on this particular part of beakerjoe's question and I want to highlight it again because it goes right to the heart of my case for Cena:
    Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn

    Here is why this is so important. Let us compare the situations...

    The Rock by the time of his heel turn had already been pushed hugely on TV by the WWE. Bounty Hunter himself acknowledges this when speaking about Rocky's cheesy gimmick:
    the fans sh*t all over it despite the then WWF trying to get him somewhere by pushed him hard and giving him the IC title and wins over big name people like Bret Hart (by DQ but still).

    So we appear to be in agreement that the Rock had the WWE machine behind him. There was a mention of Wiki articles earlier, well, even Wikipedia backs this up saying Rocky was 'pushed heavily from the start despite his wrestling inexperience.'

    It's no surprise when you think about it. Nowadays we all know how highly WWE thinks about wrestlers who have famous genes and when you consider that Rock was the FIRST third-generation superstar, of course they were going to push him to the moon.

    The fans may have hated Rocky Maivia but the company certainly didn't. Vince and Jim Ross had a big part to play in his character's debut, he was given the IC Title, and he had wrestling in his blood.

    John Cena by contrast had none of these things going for him.

    Were Vince and co. lobbying for him hard? Was he the chosen one, as Rock was? No.

    Was he given a title, even an undercard one, to have the fans see him as a big deal, as Rock got? No.

    Did he have a famous family name to provide him with extra job security? No.

    I feel all of this is hugely important because I want to emphasize to you that while Rock certainly had a tough time from the audience, his place in the company was never in jeopardy. You could not say, in that respect, his career was 'going nowhere'.

    By contrast, the same cannot be said about John Cena who knew full well that unless he made his heel turn work, there would be no second chances - he'd be gone.



    Summation


    It is for the above reasons that I contend Cena's turn was the better of the two. With the weight of the WWE machine fully behind Rocky he was earmarked for the top from the start.

    There were many within the company that had single him out for success. Bret Hart notes in his book he looked at Rock and said aloud 'this guy will be the franchise', while Jim Cornette has said Vince McMahon asked him how good Rocky could be and Cornette replied: 'I said he'd be the world champion within three years and he did it in two.'

    Rocky was tipped for success; John Cena was not.

    The heel turn for John Cena thus took on greater importance than the one of The Rock because simply put there was more riding it - the man's career.

    And given that the topic at hand asks you, the voter, to determine 'who had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn', I hope you'll decide that the right option is thus John Cena.

    Rocky had the company machine; he had the IC Title; he had the lineage; and he had Vince McMahon's confidence.

    John Cena had none of these things, and yet after his turn he won everyone over.

    I hope you will take this into your considerations when you cast your vote.

    Thanks again for reading.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    Once more a very smartly put together response from senor nice guy.

    Although I hope the reader does not dismiss the points I made recently because he believed I didn't quite get what he meant or because I used a wiki article to highlight a point.

    I noted wiki wasn't the most accurate because im not doubting Cena's own comments but because my own memory of that time does not include anything negative with regards Cena and I'd assume that article would actually represent what most people remember from the time (there would be some reading this perhaps too young to remember Cena's turn and yet I'd wager they know more about Rockys turn cos of it's impact). It would also highlight that despite Cena worrying about how he was being seen backstage because of his babyface character he wasn't floundering as badly as The Rock who the crowd had completely rejected.

    I feel like we should be honest here. I'm honest enough to acknowledge that Rock was floundering as a face and the heel turn did him a huge favour.

    I would similarly therefore like Bounty Hunter to reveal whether or not he feels John Cena was floundering as a babyface or did he think Cena as a face in '02 was succeeding?

    I think that long term a character like Cena's would not have succeeded but that he was not floundering to the extent that the Rock was. These days it is common yeah but back then nobody was chanting "Cena Sucks" during his matches. Meanwhle the fans had completely rejected The Rock

    I'll happily admit that Cena improved as a result of his character change because as pointed out in my previous post he like the Rock got the opportunity to develop their characters and mic skills big time, perhaps he didn't develop them to the extent the Rock did but then again who does.

    One interesting thing MNG says
    I want to stress my basis for choosing the heel turn of Cena had nothing to do with the precise moment the turn happened.
    Besides New Day, Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn?

    What did this change of direction accomplish and why was it so great?

    It seems to me that MNG is not answering the full question only the second part. Beakerjoe asked who we thought had the best heel turn? If this part of the question was irrelevant he wouldn't have written it and would have just focused on the supplemental piece. Surely you have to consider the actual heel turn itself important when talking about "who in your opinion had the best turn"

    I suppose the fact that Cena's actual turn as appposed to his character change that followed wasn't very memorable would make me try and change the focus of the question too so as to put more focus on the latter but I'm foucusing on all elements of the question with regards the Rock.

    He was floundering to a greater extent than Cena. The crowd had turned on him and his cheese character who didn't speak much to a huge extent and something badly needed to change.

    The turn was far more memorable than Cenas with him joining the Nation of Domination and blaming the fans to become an instant lighting rod for heat (good heat this time) in this heel stable.

    The result meant that he was able to not only get mic time which allowed him to develop into argueably the best ever wrestler on the Mic but also that he was put into the huge nation angle and that his wrestling career went from floundering to sky rocketing.

    The fans may have hated Rocky Maivia but the company certainly didn't. Vince and Jim Ross had a big part to play in his character's debut, he was given the IC Title, and he had wrestling in his blood.

    All this means is that the company who's backing he had realized that the push they had given him wasn't working. They realized that the Rocky Maivia character was going nowhere and floundering seriously after being rejected so badly by the crowd.

    The question doesn't ask who did the company believe in so don't hold that against The Rock who actually refused to acknowledge the "Rocky Maivia" name after his return as he did not want to be associated with it any longer such a failure it had been.


    As this is already my last allowed response I'll summarize why you should vote for BH now:


    Cena was not floundering to anywhere near the extent The Rock was. The guy was worried about how bland his character was being portrayed and what Vince & co thought with regards this before his heel turn but there had been no massive backlash against said character before said heel turn.

    Meanwhile the Rock too was a very bland character as Rocky Maivia but add cheesy and the fact that he barely talked to the mix. The company may have wanted this character to succeed but it was floundering badly, far more than Cena's ever got the chance to with the crowd completely sh!tting all over his character and chanting "Die, Rocky, die!" and "Rocky sucks!" during his matches.

    His heel turn was unlike Cenas hugely memorable with him joining the Nation of Domination and ripping into the fans for a lack of respect citing the "Die, Rocky, die!" and "Rocky sucks!" chants from the crowd. In fact this heel turn was so good and impactful on the business as a whole that 15-20 years later you had people calling for Roman Reigns to do the exact same type of turn (minus the fact there is no Nation now).

    Both guys are obviously now some of the biggest stars of all time so it's hard to argue against either coming away from being bland babyfaces as having accomplishing a hell of a lot but in the short term The Rock made a huge impact on one of the greatest stables of all time and immediately showed he had great mic skills highlighting just how poor the Rocky Maivia character had been.


    so to simplify, it's Thrice in a lifetime with John Cena vs The Rock and a vote for BH equals a vote for The fan hated bland cheeseball Rocky Maivia turning into the most electrifying man in sports entertainment by joining the most hated faction in the WWF and very logically ripping into the fans instead of Ruthless agression John Cena who fans didn't really have an issue with having a non memorable heel turn so as to become the Dr of Thugonomics.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,552 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    This will be my final post in this debate and I want to begin by thanking Bounty Hunter for his part in the discussion. He has been a formidable opponent as I knew he would be.

    I'll finish my final rebuttal by addressing some of the points made by my opponent previously, and I'll make my final pitch for why I hope my argument merits your vote.



    The points raised



    I was very interested in something Bounty Hunter addressed in his last post. He stated:
    despite Cena worrying about how he was being seen backstage because of his babyface character he wasn't floundering as badly as The Rock who the crowd had completely rejected.

    This interested me because I feel it illustrates the different takes Bounty Hunter and myself have adopted for this question. Bounty Hunter believes that because the audience had angrily turned on The Rock that this means he was floundering worst of all.

    My point has been that Cena by getting a reaction that ranged from crickets to a slow golf clap was in a much more precarious situation than Rocky was. Rocky Maivia was getting a backlash from the audience, there’s no doubt about that. We can all agree on that. But my point has been that the WWE machine was well behind Rocky despite this backlash.

    Cena, in contrast, was getting bland reactions as a bland babyface, and what was worse for him was that the WWE top officials were totally disinterested in him to the point of contemplating dismissal. Unlike Rocky, not only did Cena not have the WWE machine behind him - the machine was thinking of getting rid of him.

    And to go back to the original question, which I know I’ve highlighted a lot but I stress it is so important to remember the question beakerjoe asked: ‘Besides New Day, Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn?’

    I maintain that of the two, it was Cena whose career was going nowhere prior to the turn; Rocky’s career did not hinge on whether or not the turn worked because the company were well behind Rocky.

    Bounty Hunter also stated:
    I think that long term a character like Cena's would not have succeeded but that he was not floundering to the extent that the Rock was. These days it is common yeah but back then nobody was chanting "Cena Sucks" during his matches. Meanwhle the fans had completely rejected The Rock’

    Again, as noted above, Bounty Hunter seems to place too much emphasis on the hostile reaction of the fans.

    Remember, beakerjoe’s question is not asking you, the voter, which superstar had the biggest backlash from the audience. I will freely acknowledge that The Rock had the bigger backlash from the audience. That is not the question.

    The question is asking you who had the best turn ‘after initially going nowhere prior to the turn’ and I hope you will agree, when you consider the circumstances, that John Cena’s turn had the biggest impact in that respect. It was a complete 180 to his dire situation.

    Rocky was getting loudly hostile reactions, but they were reactions nonetheless, and he had been given the IC Title, had been pushed heavily as a third generation star, and was a personal project of Vince McMahon.

    Cena was getting bland reactions as a bland babyface, had no title win to help him, had no family connections, and was not highly rated by management who contemplated giving him his walking orders.

    Both men turned their situations around and became superstars but it was Cena that turned it around having been on the edge of a precipice.

    Bounty Hunter went on to say:
    It seems to me that MNG is not answering the full question only the second part. Beakerjoe asked who we thought had the best heel turn? If this part of the question was irrelevant he wouldn't have written it and would have just focused on the supplemental piece. Surely you have to consider the actual heel turn itself important when talking about "who in your opinion had the best turn

    With all due respect I think my opponent is guilty of the very thing he accuses me of. We are NOT being asked which was the better turn as he appears to suggest. We are being asked: 'Who in your opinion had the best turn (face or heel) after initially going nowhere prior to the turn?’

    This is all part of the one sentence so why omit the final part? That changes the whole complexion of the question.

    The voters are being asked to consider the dire circumstances that surrounded the performer who eventually made the turn. That is of immense importance.

    I don’t feel Bounty Hunter properly addressed my point that the WWE machine was behind Rock, whereas it was giving nothing whatsoever to ’02 John Cena. He appears instead to place far greater importance on the character of both guys, and in turn the reaction of the audience. For example when he says:
    Cena was not floundering to anywhere near the extent The Rock was. The guy was worried about how bland his character was being portrayed and what Vince & co thought with regards this before his heel turn but there had been no massive backlash against said character before said heel turn.

    Again, we keep returning to this point about ‘the backlash’ of the fans but we are asked to take into account who had the best turn after initially going nowhere before the turn. The Rock was obviously going somewhere. Hell, he had already been somewhere and had acquired the IC Title, and as BH noted in his opening post:

    'the then WWF tried to get him somewhere by pushed him hard and giving him the IC title and wins over big name people like Bret Hart (by DQ but still)'

    That John Cena had no backlash does not disprove the fact his career was in huge trouble prior to his turn.

    Let me give a modern example, if I may. The last few years, before JTG of Cryme Time was released by WWE, it became an annual gag with wrestling fans as regards whether or not he would survive the company cuts. The reason for this was because the guy played a bland babyface on TV and was getting bland reactions at best. The chap himself knew his career was in big jeopardy because of how management constantly overlooked him, never gave him mic time, etc.

    Fans weren't wondering when he would be cut because he was getting a backlash - there wasn't one - it was precisely the opposite. Fans saw that he was getting bland responses, was not allowed to express himself, and was, basically, 'going nowhere'. Very similar to where Cena was in late '02.

    It is not those who get hostile reactions who are in trouble. In WWE, if you get any sort of reaction it’s better than nothing. It is those who get little or no reactions from the crowd who are in the most difficulty and this is a point I have tried to hammer home throughout this discussion.

    The question you as voters are being asked has nothing to do with a fan backlash, or a creative slump, but rather which performer had the best turn having been going nowhere beforehand. And I contend, and hope you agree, that under this criteria the best option to go for is John Cena.



    Summation


    Before you cast your votes, folks, I would first off like to emphasize to you what this debate is not about.

    It is not a debate that asks you for your favourite heel turn.

    It is not a question that asks for the best turn, full stop.

    It is not a question that asks you for the most likeable characters following a turn.

    What the question asks you is who, in your opinion, had the best turn after initially going nowhere prior to the turn.

    That is a very interesting question because it asks you to reflect upon not just the turn itself, but the dire circumstances surrounding the performer prior to the turn.

    It asks you to ponder the circumstances of that person’s career. To assess whose career was heading down a dead end; to assess whose career was in big trouble. ‘Going nowhere.’

    Rocky Maivia was certainly a poor character, and it was a poor character that suffered a backlash as fans felt it was pushed down their throats; too much, too soon. But note a very particular word there: pushed. The character was pushed massively as my opponent acknowledged in his opening post. The lineage of Rocky Maivia was given central prominence (hell, it’s in the name itself which features the names of his father and grandfather; a name he was persuaded to accept by Vince McMahon and J.R. incidentally); he won the Intercontinental Championship months after his debut; he had the WWE machine behind him.

    Ask yourselves, in all honesty, does this strike you as a man who was going nowhere prior to his turn?

    John Cena likewise was a poor character as he himself acknowledged; a guy with boots and tights and 'ruthless aggression'. But Cena had much more to worry him: the company did not think much of him. After a few months he was seen as just a guy. There was no WWE machine behind him; he had no chance to express himself; he had no strong family connections; he had no title win of any sort in this period. The man himself believes the top brass wanted him fired at this stage.

    This, I say to you, was very much a man who was going nowhere.

    Rocky’s character was in trouble prior to the turn; his career was not.

    But John Cena’s character and his career were both in trouble prior to the turn.

    Both men transformed themselves into two of the biggest stars in this industry. Of that, I’m sure we can all agree. But ask yourselves, whose turn had the most riding on it? Whose career was in the most jeopardy prior to the heel turn?

    When you reflect on these considerations, when you take into account everything that surrounded the circumstances prior to both turns, I hope you will agree with me that the choice which best reflects beakerjoe’s question is the choice of John Cena. And for that reason I hope I earn your vote.

    That's it from me. My thanks again to Bounty Hunter and to those of you who took the time to read my piece.

    May the best man win.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Poll is up!


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Poll bump, get voting guys


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Really tight match with 1 vote in it, get voting folks


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,753 ✭✭✭✭beakerjoe


    Just under 24 hours before the poll closes folks


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    Congrats MNG a very well argued post thats very deserving of putting you through to the Semi-final.

    Was a huge swing in the voting here, I believe I was 7-4 ahead at one point so it just shows how quickly these things can change (MNG winning 10-2 from that point on!)


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,552 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    Cheers, man. And many thanks to those who gave me their vote.

    I'd no clue how this was going other than what I was hearing in the discussion thread, so I decided it would be best to just brace myself for defeat. So I'm very surprised and chuffed at this result.

    If I'd gone out I'd have had no complaints as you made a great case.


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