I want to Defect from the Roman Catholic Church

shane9689

Hello,

So I want to Defect from the Roman Catholic Church.

I am no longer a believer (haven't been for some time),

And I was considering this course of action, as I want as many documents that record me as Catholic, to not do so anymore.

I realise that it has become increasingly difficult to Defect in Ireland. I was wondering how it is possible to have myself removed? I Heard its easier to do from abroad?
Would an ex-communication be possible?

Peregrinus

OK, couple of things to get out of the way first off:

First, getting yourself excommunicated doesn't, somewhat surprisingly, doesn't terminate membership of the Catholic church. An excommunicated Catholic is still a Catholic. So this won't help you achieve your objective.

Seconsly, there is probably no official document held by the Catholic church which records that you are currently a member. The Catholic church doesn't maintain membership lists - they never have done. So it's not possible to have a record of your membership deleted - it doesn't exist in the first place.

So what records do they have that refer to you?

Assuming you were baptised in infancy in the Catholic church, they have a record of your baptism. That will be held at the church at which you were baptised. Presumably you know, or can find out, where that was.

Plus, if you made your first communion and your confirmation in the Catholic church, they'll have records of those events too. And if you have married in the Catholic church, they have a record of that.

But those are all point-in-time records - you were baptised in such-and-such a year, you were marrried in such-and-such a year. Those records don't tell you anything about the situation today. You could be dead. You could be widowed. You could have remarried someone else in a non-Catholic ceremony. You could have left the church.

In general, the Catholic church doesn't take a position on whether shane9689 (or anyone else) is a member, one way or the other, until they need to. For most people, they never need to.

Suppose they do need to determine whether you are a Catholic. They have a record that shows you were baptised in the Catholic church as a infant. Does that mean you are a Catholic today? Not necessarily. Being baptised is necessary for membership of the Catholic church. It's not sufficient. In addition to being a baptised Christian, to be a Catholic you have to be in a relationship of communion with the Catholic church. (That's why, say, Ian Paisly, although baptised, was not regarded as a Catholic by the Catholic church.) That means that the record of your baptism isn't, in itself, a record of you as a current Catholic, since it doesn't say anything about your current relationship with the church.

It's a starting point, though. If you were baptised in a Catholic ceremony, that indicates that your parents intended to raise you in the church, so it creates an opening presumption, if you like, that you are Catholic - unless you have since left the church (which, of course, in your case, you have.)

You can ask them to delete the record of your baptism, but they won't. They will point out that your baptism did happen, and deleting the record wouldn't make it unhappen. And there is no reason to delete it. So far as it goes, the record is correct; you were baptised.

What you can do write to the bishop of the diocese in which you were baptised, telling him that you have left the church and asking him to make a note in the diocesan records recording the fact. Different dioceses have different policies in this regard. Some will make a notation against the record of your baptism, others will put your letter on file and add your name to an index of people who have sent such letters. Pretty well all will reply to your letter, noting and acknowledging what you have said. And, if the question ever comes up in the future, that letter and its reply will stand against your baptismal record - you may have been a Catholic at one point, but by 2015 (or whenever) you definitely weren't.

LordSutch

shane9689 wrote: »

Hello,

So I want to Defect from the Roman Catholic Church.

I am no longer a believer (haven't been for some time),

Defections usually take place on a Sunday morning between about 9am & 11am. Best to wear a disguise and to keep your mouth shut in case you're discovered during your escape/defection

But seriously.... Is not 'defection' a strong word for something that can be done so easily?

Surely you can't be restrained by one church to the degree that you have defect from said Church!

My local C of I Church has many parishioners from other Christian denominations, and I can't believe that they all had to go through the proverbial grinder!

9de5q7tsr8u2im

op is definitely a satan he seems to be brainwashed , i think he needs to attend confession

uck51js9zml2yt

As left the R C church over 30 years ago. I never felt the need to tell them.

Manach

Perhaps OP could as a first step take stock of what actually they "defecting" from and reality check that this is no longer during the Cold War. I now need to inform my superiors to release the Albino monks, we have a runner.

Peregrinus

"Defection" is the jargon term used by the Catholic church itself for this step, so I don't think we can quibble with shane9689's use of the term.

FWIW, the term was used in this sense long before it came to be used to describe changing sides during the Cold War. To defect meant originally to undo, and it has been used for a long time in the context of renouncing a belief or ideal formerly held, or of leaving a party or movement devoted to such a belief.

Mrs OBumble

OP, the next time the census form or a hospital admission form asks for your religion, just tick "atheist" or write in Jedi, or whatever else rocks your boat at the time.

Simples.

looksee

Some hospitals will not accept 'no religion' I had to declare myself something (Methodist I think) to get into a hospital in Cork.

eviltwin

looksee wrote: »

Some hospitals will not accept 'no religion' I had to declare myself something (Methodist I think) to get into a hospital in Cork.

When I had my second baby I wanted to change my notes to show no religion and they refused me. They changed it eventually but it took a few months. They were able to change my marital status easily enough though....

Michael OBrien

looksee wrote: »

Some hospitals will not accept 'no religion' I had to declare myself something (Methodist I think) to get into a hospital in Cork.

Really? That is pretty awful. So do they actually expect a non religious person to lie to their face to satisfy some silly rule. They must know that completely invalidates any merit to the form.

liquoriceall

What hospital was that? Im guessing The Bons had a similiar problem in Tralee but I just declined to sign the form until the put none on it. The HSE has no religion as a standard option

Mrs OBumble

Tick Other and write in Jedi. Works a treat.

BlaasForRafa

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Tick Other and write in Jedi. Works a treat.

Make them write Zoroastrianism, at least that's hard to spell :pac:

NIMAN

If you tick and box and write 'Jedi' thats more embarrassing than being a Catholic!

I can just guess the kind of person who puts Jedi on a census form.

endacl

NIMAN wrote: »

If you tick and box and write 'Jedi' thats more embarrassing than being a Catholic!

I can just guess the kind of person who puts Jedi on a census form.

Beg to differ. More embarrassing than being a pastafarian. Slightly less than being a catholic. About equal to liking Rick Astley.

pauldla

shane9689 wrote: »

Hello,

So I want to Defect from the Roman Catholic Church.

I am no longer a believer (haven't been for some time),

And I was considering this course of action, as I want as many documents that record me as Catholic, to not do so anymore.

I realise that it has become increasingly difficult to Defect in Ireland. I was wondering how it is possible to have myself removed? I Heard its easier to do from abroad?
Would an ex-communication be possible?

Hi OP, AFAIK if you no longer believe, then you are no longer a Catholic. Whether this is grievous or joyous is up to you. What documents do you want to have the offending term removed from, may I ask?

katydid

Karsyn Fresh Seafood wrote: »

As left the R C church over 30 years ago. I never felt the need to tell them.

Me too. But it would be nice to let them know I'd gone...just for the record. They ought to know how many they've lost.

katydid

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP, the next time the census form or a hospital admission form asks for your religion, just tick "atheist" or write in Jedi, or whatever else rocks your boat at the time.

Simples.

But that's not letting them know you're gone.

uck51js9zml2yt

katydid wrote: »

Me too. But it would be nice to let them know I'd gone...just for the record. They ought to know how many they've lost.

Its never been high on my list and any priests I've spoken to over the years haven't been too worried. I'm not a prod so that's a good thing

katydid

Karsyn Fresh Seafood wrote: »

Its never been high on my list and any priests I've spoken to over the years haven't been too worried. I'm not a prod so that's a good thing

Why a good thing?

bajer101

OP, have a loot at this.

http://www.notme.ie/

uck51js9zml2yt

katydid wrote: »

Why a good thing?

God didn't take me out of Catholicism to make me a Protestant.

katydid

Karsyn Fresh Seafood wrote: »

God didn't take me out of Catholicism to make me a Protestant.

Is there something wrong with Protestants?

Peregrinus

katydid wrote: »

But that's not letting them know you're gone.

Correct. They'll know from the census figures how many people identify as Catholic, and if the OP doesn't tick the "Catholic" box that's one less person identifying as Catholic. But they'll have no idea that it's the OP who has ceased to identify as Catholic.

If he wants them to know its him, he'll have to write to them. And the person he should write to is the Bishop of the diocese in which he was baptised, or otherwise received into the church.

katydid

Peregrinus wrote: »

Correct. They'll know from the census figures how many people identify as Catholic, and if the OP doesn't tick the "Catholic" box that's one less person identifying as Catholic. But they'll have no idea that it's the OP who has ceased to identify as Catholic.

If he wants them to know its him, he'll have to write to them. And the person he should write to is the Bishop of the diocese in which he was baptised, or otherwise received into the church.

But the bishop won't be noting that officially anywhere, will he? There is no record of those who have notified the church that they are no longer members.

Peregrinus

katydid wrote: »

But the bishop won't be noting that officially anywhere, will he? There is no record of those who have notified the church that they are no longer members.

Yes, there is. The details of the practice vary from diocese to diocese. Some make a note in the register of baptism; others maintain an index of formal defections, still others simply register and file the exchange of correspondence. But none of them, SFAIK, simply bin such letters.

There's no central register of everyone who notifies the church of their defection. But, then, there's no central register of everyone who is baptised either. The Catholic church is not big on central record-keeping.

Mrs OBumble

katydid wrote: »

But that's not letting them know you're gone.

The OP said that they want to defect, not that they want to tell the church they've defected.

Why would they need to tell the church? Do you tell the gym / golf club etc when you decide not to renew your membership there?

Peregrinus

Most people who defect from the Catholic church don't tell the church about it. There is no requirement to, in order for it to be effective, and they feel no need to.

But the OP specifically says that he wants "as many documents that record me as Catholic, to not do so anymore". So if the church does hold records that suggest he is or may be a Catholic, he wants them changed. And, for that, he will have to tell the church.

hinault

shane9689 wrote: »

Hello,

So I want to Defect from the Roman Catholic Church.

I am no longer a believer (haven't been for some time),

And I was considering this course of action, as I want as many documents that record me as Catholic, to not do so anymore.

I realise that it has become increasingly difficult to Defect in Ireland. I was wondering how it is possible to have myself removed? I Heard its easier to do from abroad?
Would an ex-communication be possible?

You need to blame the people who had you baptised.
Have you confronted them about their having you baptised.

How do you propose at this remove for example to redact the already completed census forms from the past that listed you as Catholic?

You're no Catholic. So what.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

You need to blame the people who had you baptised.
Have you confronted them about their having you baptised.

How do you propose at this remove for example to redact the already completed census forms from the past that listed you as Catholic?

You're no Catholic. So what.

Where did the op say he wanted to blame anyone or remove his details from a census form.?

I'm surprised at your "so what" response. Surely based on your responses in other threads you should be telling him he has left the "one true church" and in danger of perdition as this is what you believe?

K.Flyer

shane9689 wrote: »

[...]
So I want to Defect from the Roman Catholic Church.
[...]
And I was considering this course of action, as I want as many documents that record me as Catholic, to not do so anymore.
[...]

I think if you really want to follow this course of action, you are going to have a fairly arduous task ahead of yourself.
As has been said before, Baptism, Communion and Confirmation records, may be straight forward to have some "note" attached to them, but what about school records, hospital files etc etc.
At the end of the day it is what you feel in your heart that is right for you and thats nobody's business except yours, with no need to waste your time and effort chasing pieces of paper that are most likely buried away or destroyed.
If it makes you feel better in yourself, sent a letter of "resignation" to the local Bishop, express your feelings to him, leave it at that and get on and enjoy the rest of your life.
Live Long and Prosper.

uck51js9zml2yt

K.Flyer wrote: »

I think if you really want to follow this course of action, you are going to have a fairly arduous task ahead of yourself.
As has been said before, Baptism, Communion and Confirmation records, may be straight forward to have some "note" attached to them, but what about school records, hospital files etc etc.
At the end of the day it is what you feel in your heart that is right for you and thats nobody's business except yours, with no need to waste your time and effort chasing pieces of paper that are most likely buried away or destroyed.
If it makes you feel better in yourself, sent a letter of "resignation" to the local Bishop, express your feelings to him, leave it at that and get on and enjoy the rest of your life.
Live Long and Prosper.

I've never felt the need to tell the hierarchy of my leaving in the last 30_years.
As for hospitals, I just inform them of my beliefs when I'm I'm for anything, though I had a C of I chaplin call up to me when I was in hospital recently when she saw I wasn't RC:)

Just move on with your life. Its really not that important in the scheme of things.

martinjudge73

shane9689 wrote: »

Hello,

So I want to Defect from the Roman Catholic Church.

I am no longer a believer (haven't been for some time),

And I was considering this course of action, as I want as many documents that record me as Catholic, to not do so anymore.

I realise that it has become increasingly difficult to Defect in Ireland. I was wondering how it is possible to have myself removed? I Heard its easier to do from abroad?
Would an ex-communication be possible?

Don't go to Mass. simple

hinault

K.Flyer wrote: »

I think if you really want to follow this course of action, you are going to have a fairly arduous task ahead of yourself.
As has been said before, Baptism, Communion and Confirmation records, may be straight forward to have some "note" attached to them, but what about school records, hospital files etc etc.
At the end of the day it is what you feel in your heart that is right for you and thats nobody's business except yours, with no need to waste your time and effort chasing pieces of paper that are most likely buried away or destroyed.
If it makes you feel better in yourself, sent a letter of "resignation" to the local Bishop, express your feelings to him, leave it at that and get on and enjoy the rest of your life.
Live Long and Prosper.

Not to mention too all the records held by the state which record him/her as being Catholic.
Hospital records, education records, census records.................

Yeah, he/she will have some job trying to redact all the records listing him/her as a Catholic :P