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Administrative Officer 2015 open competition

13468915

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 eleah


    apologies if this seems like a stupid question but what do the various figures mean - ie: first is 32+K, second 33+K etc. what is this sliding scale based on?
    and i got number 130 which from the posts on this thread suggests I wont get a look in - so I should keep looking for something else?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31 TCO


    eleah wrote: »
    apologies if this seems like a stupid question but what do the various figures mean - ie: first is 32+K, second 33+K etc. what is this sliding scale based on?
    and i got number 130 which from the posts on this thread suggests I wont get a look in - so I should keep looking for something else?

    On day 1 you'll start off on €30,221. After one year you'll move to the next point on the scale, which is €32,575 - provided your performance has been satisfactory. And so on for every subsequent year until the max point on the scale is reached. Note that the last 2 points on the scale are long service increments so you'll get yearly increments up to €54,329 and then you'll have to serve a further 3 years to get to each of the last 2 points on the scale. I hope that makes sense!

    We have no idea how many people will be taken over the life of this panel. Even if there are 100 posts to be filled that might mean that 120-140 (making up figures off the top of my head here) offers are made to fill those posts, as the majority of the jobs will be based in Dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 eleah


    thanks for clearing that up!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    I wonder how long this panel will last and how fast they will be calling people?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31 TCO


    Emmal14 wrote: »
    I wonder how long this panel will last and how fast they will be calling people?

    The panel will last 12 months.

    I had a peek at last years thread there - seems they got to around no. 70 on the panel after about 3 months... however only 115 were initially called forward to the final round last year.

    How fast they call people is dependent on the number of requests received from Departments for staff. Its also probable that there will be an increased number of retirements before June 2016 due to retirement terms becoming less favorable after that date - that might result in an increased demand for AOs. Again that is only me making an educated guess.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    TCO wrote: »
    The panel will last 12 months.

    I had a peek at last years thread there - seems they got to around no. 70 on the panel after about 3 months... however only 115 were initially called forward to the final round last year.

    How fast they call people is dependent on the number of requests received from Departments for staff. Its also probable that there will be an increased number of retirements before June 2016 due to retirement terms becoming less favorable after that date - that might result in an increased demand for AOs. Again that is only me making an educated guess.

    Hmm interesting! I remember they had said initially that they would like to get everyone in the first quarter of 2016


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭RWC15champions


    TCO wrote: »
    The panel will last 12 months.

    I had a peek at last years thread there - seems they got to around no. 70 on the panel after about 3 months... however only 115 were initially called forward to the final round last year.

    How fast they call people is dependent on the number of requests received from Departments for staff. Its also probable that there will be an increased number of retirements before June 2016 due to retirement terms becoming less favorable after that date - that might result in an increased demand for AOs. Again that is only me making an educated guess.

    The less favourable retirement conditions that you are referring to will not come into effect until 2019 now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31 TCO


    Emmal14 wrote: »
    Hmm interesting! I remember they had said initially that they would like to get everyone in the first quarter of 2016

    Here's hoping everyone includes ourselves!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Emmal14 wrote: »
    Hmm interesting! I remember they had said initially that they would like to get everyone in the first quarter of 2016

    At AO (and increasingly EO) they tend to recruit in groups- so home Departments can organise induction training for groups- rather than piecemeal in ones and twos. That said- ones and twos- are far from unusual........

    The imperative at the moment is to backfill at the lower grades- and stated policy is enhanced external recruitment at the higher grades- so I would expect promotional prospects to be poor for serving civil servants going forwards.......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    The imperative at the moment is to backfill at the lower grades- and stated policy is enhanced external recruitment at the higher grades- so I would expect promotional prospects to be poor for serving civil servants going forwards.......

    I think there is an argument in favour of external recruitment at higher grades because there's a high risk of very insular thinking otherwise. However, it is a major error to completely disengage your staff by not offering them opportunity for advancement. Balance matters in other words.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Calina wrote: »
    I think there is an argument in favour of external recruitment at higher grades because there's a high risk of very insular thinking otherwise. However, it is a major error to completely disengage your staff by not offering them opportunity for advancement. Balance matters in other words.

    I agree with you.
    The issue now is there is a perception that there is no promotional pathway for existing staff- who feel the recruitment process (computerised exams etc)- favours far younger staff- esp. those recently out of college- and has no cognisance or value attributed to people's experience and skills- its all a computerised exam that you either get on the day- or not.....

    If there is a performance measurement process (PMDS) surely it should be more than simply a gateway to establish a right to do an exam- its an additional hoop that doesn't exist for other candidates........

    There were no promotions and no recruitment for most of the last 15 years- now the pre-existing staff are being made felt like they're commodities and of little value other than in positions akin to their current posts.......

    I'm not sure if you're in the service or not- but the disillusionment in the civil service- particularly in grades such as IT grades- which were dumbed down to general service grades- is palpable- and now that the economy is getting better- people are actively seeing what their options are elsewhere. I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

    The civil service cannot sell itself to prospect employees any longer- predominantly on the basis that its the civil service. It is going to have to fight with other prospective employers- and sell itself to both prospective employees and current employees- if it intends to keep them. Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,392 ✭✭✭✭billyhead


    I agree with you.
    The issue now is there is a perception that there is no promotional pathway for existing staff- who feel the recruitment process (computerised exams etc)- favours far younger staff- esp. those recently out of college- and has no cognisance or value attributed to people's experience and skills- its all a computerised exam that you either get on the day- or not.....

    If there is a performance measurement process (PMDS) surely it should be more than simply a gateway to establish a right to do an exam- its an additional hoop that doesn't exist for other candidates........

    There were no promotions and no recruitment for most of the last 15 years- now the pre-existing staff are being made felt like they're commodities and of little value other than in positions akin to their current posts.......

    I'm not sure if you're in the service or not- but the disillusionment in the civil service- particularly in grades such as IT grades- which were dumbed down to general service grades- is palpable- and now that the economy is getting better- people are actively seeing what their options are elsewhere. I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

    The civil service cannot sell itself to prospect employees any longer- predominantly on the basis that its the civil service. It is going to have to fight with other prospective employers- and sell itself to both prospective employees and current employees- if it intends to keep them. Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.
    All true the morale in some departments with the lack of promotional opportunities for internal staff is poor especially in the DSP where they took CWOs in and automatically graded them at HEO level thus filling most of these positions without them having to go through a recruitment process.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    I agree with you.
    The issue now is there is a perception that there is no promotional pathway for existing staff- who feel the recruitment process (computerised exams etc)- favours far younger staff- esp. those recently out of college- and has no cognisance or value attributed to people's experience and skills- its all a computerised exam that you either get on the day- or not.....

    There may be that feeling but anecdotally, the vast majority of people passing through the process that I am aware of lately are not young graduates. So while people may think the recruitment process favours the younger staff, the problem is that it is not a career that is attracting young people in the numbers it used to.

    As far as I am aware, the exams have always existed; it is the format which has changed. FWIW, by the way, the current AO recruitment process has required that those tests be taken twice.
    If there is a performance measurement process (PMDS) surely it should be more than simply a gateway to establish a right to do an exam- its an additional hoop that doesn't exist for other candidates........

    You may say that but then against that, people who came in from the private sector get no credit for time worked whereas civil servants, even those coming through the the open competitions do. This has financial implications for recruiting from the private sector.
    There were no promotions and no recruitment for most of the last 15 years- now the pre-existing staff are being made felt like they're commodities and of little value other than in positions akin to their current posts.......

    This is not unique to the public sector.
    I'm not sure if you're in the service or not- but the disillusionment in the civil service- particularly in grades such as IT grades- which were dumbed down to general service grades- is palpable- and now that the economy is getting better- people are actively seeing what their options are elsewhere. I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

    There are two issues here. The key one is that the primary body failing to recognise the value of the civil service staff is the wider population of Ireland. It is not, I think, purely a management issue for the civil service although I have no doubt that locally, it probably has ramifications.

    The second issue is that the civil service structure is deeply inflexible in terms of responding to demand for its jobs, or the skills it requires. This is causing a problem in IT I think already and it feeds into the difficulty of hiring from the outside too.
    The civil service cannot sell itself to prospect employees any longer- predominantly on the basis that its the civil service. It is going to have to fight with other prospective employers- and sell itself to both prospective employees and current employees- if it intends to keep them. Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.

    This is somewhat debatable I think. The civil service is increasingly attractive to - for example - women with family concerns as while financially it isn't the greatest, it is still one of the more flexible options available.

    In terms of civil service renewal, however, it's going to be hard to get younger staff in with the current value proposition. It is too inflexible in terms of progress.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Omnishambles99


    Hi guys - question - if you are a serving civil servant (let's say at EO or HEO) and on a salary of mid €40Ks and you get offered an AO position do you go in your current salary and then "Mark time" for a number of years until your years services reaches the relevant point of the AO scale .?

    I'm only asking because if I was to accept an AO post now, I would be waiting seven years on the same salary level "off point" - does anyone know is this correct ?

    Any thoughts welcomed on this thorny issue!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Cakerbaker


    I started as an AO last year on a mid point, was EO for 8 years. Was told I'll move up this year. Won't be much of a difference this year though with the way my mid point and the next increment fall!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 141 ✭✭Omnishambles99


    Cakerbaker cheers for that ! That's reassuring , while it's obviously good that you wouldn't lose any money when accepting as AO post as a serving civil servant on a wage well half way up the AO scale, it would still be a tad annoying to have to stay on the same money for 5-6 years !!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Cakerbaker


    I probably would have taken it anyway as I wasn't too far off the top of the scale other than the long service increments and opportunities for internal promotion were fairly limited. Depending on your years of service you could qualify for extra leave too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    This is somewhat debatable I think. The civil service is increasingly attractive to - for example - women with family concerns as while financially it isn't the greatest, it is still one of the more flexible options available.

    In terms of civil service renewal, however, it's going to be hard to get younger staff in with the current value proposition. It is too inflexible in terms of progress.[/quote]

    I agree completely. The private sector while better financially does not have the same lifestyle benefits as the civil service. If i get the ao position while i will have to take a pay cut i will gain 4 days a/l and flexi time which for kids (hopefully down the line) is far better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,218 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I recently met 4 EO ICTs at an interview who I know- none of whom were aware that the others were all being interviewed for the same positions (with one of the major outsourced IT firms). This is the future- if management don't cop on and understand that the biggest asset any company- including the civil service, has is its staff.

    .... Anyone who is any good at all- can earn significantly more and have better employment conditions- pretty much anywhere other than the civil service these days.

    I wonder though???
    Would private sector employers in Ireland (particularly the Irish ones?) have a tendency to think you are useless if you worked in any public sector for more than a couple of years in the same role (especially at the lower to mid level CO up to AO perhaps)? That might well be the case for most current public sector staff given the hiring and promotion freezes, difficulty of transfer etc.
    I work in the public sector and really don't know what "real" opinions are on that.

    Going on the media from the last few years the message has certainly been pushed that almost everyone working in the public sector is possibly an idiot, certainly a touch lazy, and likely a stick-in-the-mud into the bargain who would not last in the "real world of work"?
    [I'm excluding likes of health workers here who are quite undeniably (even to those who don't wish to admit it) in demand in lots of places if willing to leave Ireland - edit maybe IT which you specifically mentioned should be excluded too once staff have kept their knowledge and skills current].


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    Anybody hear of any movement on the AO panel?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 DEEDEE30


    I've received notification that I'm under consideration for the policing authority.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31 TCO


    DEEDEE30 wrote: »
    I've received notification that I'm under consideration for the policing authority.

    What approximate position are you on the panel? Top 10? Top 20?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 DEEDEE30


    30's


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭Veledan22


    At least there is some movement on it...even if I am so far down the list I don't think I'll get a look in!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    DEEDEE30 wrote: »
    30's

    Thanks! I am number 103 so praying they at least get to me!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 184 ✭✭Holysock


    At least yous aren't potentially the last person on the panel like me. I haven't heard of anyone higher than 131 :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    Holysock wrote: »
    At least yous aren't potentially the last person on the panel like me. I haven't heard of anyone higher than 131 :P

    But at least it is a realistic panel then! Hopefully it will get us all!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭trebormax


    I'm just over 100 so have a ways to go, but keeping the chin up.

    If anyone has heard, can I ask whether they were contacted via Email or phone?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 DEEDEE30


    I received a email.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 413 ✭✭Veledan22


    Holysock wrote: »
    At least yous aren't potentially the last person on the panel like me. I haven't heard of anyone higher than 131 :P

    I'm not too far ahead of that, but hopefully they will get to us ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13 ashball


    Holysock wrote: »
    At least yous aren't potentially the last person on the panel like me. I haven't heard of anyone higher than 131 :P

    I'm a little lower, so go on and feel better! Hopefully they have a mass retirement or similar and we all get bumped up the list!

    Is everyone that got through the interview day automatically on the panel for the year or just the top however-many?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    ashball wrote: »
    I'm a little lower, so go on and feel better! Hopefully they have a mass retirement or similar and we all get bumped up the list!

    Is everyone that got through the interview day automatically on the panel for the year or just the top however-many?

    I would say say it's whoever out of the 250 people that got past the qualifying scores for each part of the day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 northernline


    A few questions for anyone who knows...

    a. Is the order of merit used in order for all vacancies? i.e. When a role is filled by 1, will the next role automatically be filled by 2 or is there an additional process?

    b. Is there any substantive difference between the HEO and AO grades? They seem to occupy the same space in any management structures I've seen.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Are the current vacancies being notified predominantly for the Garda Policing Authority?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    We are working off the requests we have to date and have currently reached the 30's on the panel. We have no definitive number of initial vacancies and will assign successful candidates as we receive requests.

    That is an email received from PAS this morning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 418 ✭✭:Keith:


    I'm in the high 30s so feeling very hopeful now!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    :Keith: wrote: »
    I'm in the high 30s so feeling very hopefully now!

    As you should Keith! Hopefully all the first batch of vacancies are for the policing authority and thus meaning other departments requests haven't been processed yet! That would be good for all of us! Though the policing authority office is just outside of town so fantastic place to get!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 819 ✭✭✭glasagusban


    A few questions for anyone who knows...

    a. Is the order of merit used in order for all vacancies? i.e. When a role is filled by 1, will the next role automatically be filled by 2 or is there an additional process?

    b. Is there any substantive difference between the HEO and AO grades? They seem to occupy the same space in any management structures I've seen.

    Traditionally HEO would involve staff management and AO more policy work/report writing but the grades are considered equivalent and interchangeable. 15k difference in the starting point is a fairly substantive difference though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭cee_jay


    Are the current vacancies being notified predominantly for the Garda Policing Authority?

    I know of 3 people in the top 20 who are not being placed in the Policing Authority.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭trebormax


    A few questions for anyone who knows...

    a. Is the order of merit used in order for all vacancies? i.e. When a role is filled by 1, will the next role automatically be filled by 2 or is there an additional process?

    b. Is there any substantive difference between the HEO and AO grades? They seem to occupy the same space in any management structures I've seen.

    I sent an email regarding point A above as I wanted to find out how the graduate aspect would be treated within the panel, and I got back this reply;

    "As this was a open competition for general Administrative Officers, successful candidates can be placed in any department irrespective of their education except if the department requests someone with certain qualifications."

    So it appears that it is in order of merit the whole way down saving for if a department makes a specific request for someone with targeted skills or education such as radio operaters or environmental scientists etc. (Just examples off the top of my head) but I get the impression this would be a rarer exception to the rule.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    trebormax wrote: »
    I sent an email regarding point A above as I wanted to find out how the graduate aspect would be treated within the panel, and I got back this reply;

    "As this was a open competition for general Administrative Officers, successful candidates can be placed in any department irrespective of their education except if the department requests someone with certain qualifications."

    So it appears that it is in order of merit the whole way down saving for if a department makes a specific request for someone with targeted skills or education such as radio operaters or environmental scientists etc. (Just examples off the top of my head) but I get the impression this would be a rarer exception to the rule.

    Kind of makes experience and sector qualifications irrelavent ( I have a QFA in addition to my degree). But such is the way of the world! I am just getting impatient lol! Not good at waiting with very little info! If i was waiting but knew for example there was 90 or 120 ao jobs i would be fine its the uncertainty i despise


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81 ✭✭trebormax


    Emmal14 wrote: »
    Kind of makes experience and sector qualifications irrelavent ( I have a QFA in addition to my degree). But such is the way of the world! I am just getting impatient lol! Not good at waiting with very little info! If i was waiting but knew for example there was 90 or 120 ao jobs i would be fine its the uncertainty i despise

    I suppose its more about having it in the back pocket than leading with the qualification.

    Yeah.. 90 wouldn't do me but 120 would :) I also asked if they have an idea of numbers but the reply did say they were still unsure on final numbers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16 northernline


    Thanks to all for the responses to my questions. I was wondering whether experience / qualifications would be taken into account.

    The pre-interview booklet mentioned the possibility of "sub-competitions" for some AO roles. Does anyone know what this means?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    trebormax wrote: »
    I suppose its more about having it in the back pocket than leading with the qualification.

    Yeah.. 90 wouldn't do me but 120 would :) I also asked if they have an idea of numbers but the reply did say they were still unsure on final numbers.

    90 wouldn't do me either but if i knew there was little hope i would adjust my expectations! Ye that's all I have heard is that final numbers have not been confirmed! What did anybody think of the process?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Cakerbaker


    I've been on a few civil service panels over the years, most recently last years AO. The reason they don't have the final numbers of people to be appointed is they don't know how many requests they'll get from departments over the year that the panel is valid for. While they might start off with a certain number of positions, they don't know what requests will come in over the year so don't know how far down the panel they'll get. In a way it's completely out of their hands, they run the competition but it's the departments do the hiring. Hope that helps!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    Cakerbaker wrote: »
    I've been on a few civil service panels over the years, most recently last years AO. The reason they don't have the final numbers of people to be appointed is they don't know how many requests they'll get from departments over the year that the panel is valid for. While they might start off with a certain number of positions, they don't know what requests will come in over the year so don't know how far down the panel they'll get. In a way it's completely out of their hands, they run the competition but it's the departments do the hiring. Hope that helps!

    Do you mind me asking how you got on with last years panel?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Cakerbaker


    They called 115 first. I'm not sure how many were put in that panel but they obviously exhausted it as they then called another 50 which included me. I was number 20 on the second panel and was appointed. Not sure how many others were appointed.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,286 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Thanks to all for the responses to my questions. I was wondering whether experience / qualifications would be taken into account.

    The pre-interview booklet mentioned the possibility of "sub-competitions" for some AO roles. Does anyone know what this means?

    Subcompetitions- would be confined streams that professional qualifications would grant access to- such as-
    • Tax qualifications
    • Accountancy professional exams
    • Law professional and/or Bar exams
    • Some IT streams (limited- more often than not there is a separate IT competition altogether)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭Emmal14


    Cakerbaker wrote: »
    They called 115 first. I'm not sure how many were put in that panel but they obviously exhausted it as they then called another 50 which included me. I was number 20 on the second panel and was appointed. Not sure how many others were appointed.

    And how long did it take for you to be called?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭Cakerbaker


    The competition started in November 2014 and the results saying the first 115 were being called to the next stage in PAS was just before or after Christmas 2014 if I remember correctly. The second lot I was in was called to PAS for the assessments / interviews in June 2015. I started in September.


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