Anna Nolan on “gender fluid” people

MakeEmLaugh

Anna Nolan made an interesting point in an article published this week in the Irish Independent.

Writing about Jonathan Rachel Clynch – the RTÉ presenter who recently said he identified as “gender fluid” and about Caitlyn Jenner, she wrote said the following.

I have been fascinated by the Caitlyn Jenner story. The Olympic male athlete transitioned into a woman this year. He says he has always felt like one.

But I don’t know what it is to feel like a woman. Is it the way we walk? The way we talk? Is it on the outside – clothes, make up, bras and shoes? Or is it on the inside? But if I don’t know what it’s like to feel like a woman – how can a man?

I feel this is a point that is often shut down when the subject of transgender or “gender fluid” people is brought up.

I would wager, without speaking for everyone, that the majority of cis-gender people (i.e. people who identify as the gender on their birth certificate) couldn't say what it feels like to be a man or woman.

Ultimately, being a man or woman is less about psychology, and more about biology i.e.

Having male reproductive organs

Having one X chromosome

Having vocal folds between 1.75cm and 2.5cm

Whenever this issue (a tangible sense of how you can “feel like” a woman, without those biological assets) is raised, however, it is often shut down, and dismissed as “transphobic”.

Does Anna Nolan have a point?

hatrickpatrick

This thread will be a well thought out and civilised exchange of opinions on a bedrock of mutual respect, culminating in a beautiful ending.

*Microwave popcorn, 3 mins*

Dtp1979

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This thread will be a well thought out and civilised exchange of opinions on a bedrock of mutual respect, culminating in a beautiful ending.

*Microwave popcorn, 3 mins*

You'll fcukin destroy the popcorn if you leave it in for 3 minutes

hurlsey

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This thread will be a well thought out and civilised exchange of opinions on a bedrock of mutual respect, culminating in a beautiful ending.

*Microwave popcorn, 3 mins*

Nearly dropped my phone after reading that... Just popped on the kettle, this should be good!!

Joe prim

Didn't have time to read all the thread, but as far as I can remember, you can get that Gender fluid out of a white shirt by steeping it before throwing it in the washing machine.

OneOfThem

It's an interesting point. I'm a man. Can't say I've ever specifically "felt like a man". Not that I can say I've ever felt like anything other than a man. I've just felt like I've felt. I just feel how I feel. Can't say it's similar to how other men feel. Can't say it's different to how women feel. I would have thought by extension of that I couldn't say I feel like women feel either. You just feel how you feel surely? You can't have a direct experience of how anyone else feels. So how could you say you feel how they feel? I can get having a feeling of "something not quite being right" or whatever. A kind of Neo in the Matrix, "yeah, there's something a bit off here, can't really put my finger on it" kind of thing. But to specifically not feel like one gender and feel like another, sounds really really odd. But I dunno, transgender people claim to feel it, and I've never been transgender, as far as I'm aware, so can't say I know how they feel either. It's an interesting line of thought on the whole thing.

Links234

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Does Anna Nolan have a point?

Not really, no.

Saying that trans people say they "feel like" men or women seems to be such a gross oversimplification and distortion to be an outright strawman. Transgender people most often suffer from gender dysphoria, which is an incredibly horrible thing that I wouldn't wish on anyone. I know what it feels like to have had dysphoria, and I know what it feels like when that was alleviated and to feel normal at last. Other than that, I just feel like myself.

Mr. Incognito

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Anna Nolan made an interesting point in an article published this week in the Irish Independent.

I dont believe you.

Vacous idiots shouting over each other vying to say the stupidest thing that pours out of their empty heads

osarusan

But if I don’t know what it’s like to feel like a woman – how can a man?

If there is any woman out there who knows what it's like to feel like a woman, her argument is reduced to nothing.

Literally nothing.

Insect Overlord

osarusan wrote: »

If there is any woman out there who knows what it's like to feel like a woman, her argument is reduced to nothing.

Literally nothing.

Shania Twain.

/thread

(You're welcome :cool: )

OneOfThem

osarusan wrote: »

If there is any woman out there who knows what it's like to feel like a woman

Is there? I mean like Mary knows what it's like to feel like Mary. But that's all that she can possibly know what it feels like to be? Could she know what it feels like to feel like Jane or Sue? Surely Mary just feels like Mary and that's different to feel like Jane feeling like Jane? Can Mary really say she feels more like Jane than Bob? How could she know? It can't be experienced, or can it?

Medusa22

I read her article and I found it very interesting and I have to say that I agree with her. I understand that transgender people feel that they are the opposite gender and I believe them when they say it. I think there has also been research into male and female brains and how transgender people seem to reflect these differences, such as this study which has highlighted that female-to-male transgender people have shown similarities to male brains where white matter has been examined. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/

I do believe that men and women are fundamentally different but I am not sure how to quantify that exactly (aside from biologically of course) and I suppose that's where I agree with Anna. I wear converse and jeans but I still feel female, I still identify as female. What makes you feel female or feel male exactly?

Dtp1979

An File wrote: »

Shania Twain.

/thread

(You're welcome :cool: )

You're welcome?? You've that fcukinh song stuck in my head.

Peregrine

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057492428
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057439752

Help yourself to those two threads from a few days ago and a few weeks ago. Some 1000+ posts between them.

We don't need to have a thread about this every week. It always ends up with people shouting abuse at each other.