Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act in areas that are technically not public

GM228

Hi all,

I'm curious can the CJA (Public Order) be applied in an open area that technically isn't public.

For example an adult verbally abused a child (covered under section 5 (i) I believe), but on the grounds of a school. Technically the school grounds would be private so not sure if the Act applies.

If it dosn't is there any parts of the law which do apply?

Thanks in advance

John

seamus

From the act itself:

“public place” includes—

(a) any highway,

(b) any outdoor area to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or as a trespasser or otherwise, and which is used for public recreational purposes,

(c) any cemetery or churchyard,

(d) any premises or other place to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or by express or implied permission, or whether on payment or otherwise, and

(e) any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.

(b) or (d) would apply here.

From what you describe it sounds like section 6 (1) is actually where the charge would arise.

Little CuChulainn

Depends on the act to be honest. Breach of the peace is a common law offence which can be in public or private. Other offences like harassment or assault can also be committed on public or private property. Trespass is another offence that can be committed on private property.

The definition of a public place is pretty broad in regards to the other crimes under the act. A school yard may or may not be depending on the circumstances. Some school yards would be closed to the public and only open to students so during school hours they might not fall under the definition.

GM228

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Depends on the act to be honest. Breach of the peace is a common law offence which can be in public or private. Other offences like harassment or assault can also be committed on public or private property. Trespass is another offence that can be committed on private property.

The definition of a public place is pretty broad in regards to the other crimes under the act. A school yard may or may not be depending on the circumstances. Some school yards would be closed to the public and only open to students so during school hours they might not fall under the definition.

Members of the public were permitted at the time of the incident so I'm assuming that makes it "public" by definition of the Act?

John

Serjeant Buzfuz

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Depends on the act to be honest. Breach of the peace is a common law offence which can be in public or private. Other offences like harassment or assault can also be committed on public or private property. Trespass is another offence that can be committed on private property.

The definition of a public place is pretty broad in regards to the other crimes under the act. A school yard may or may not be depending on the circumstances. Some school yards would be closed to the public and only open to students so during school hours they might not fall under the definition.

The common law offence of Breach of the peace was abolished by the Public Order Act.
Public place defined pretty loosely in the Act, in my experience Judges rarely allow this technical defence

Serjeant Buzfuz

GM228 wrote: »

Members of the public were permitted at the time of the incident so I'm assuming that makes it "public" by definition of the Act?

John

I think that's a fair enough assumption

Little CuChulainn

Serjeant Buzfuz wrote: »

The common law offence of Breach of the peace was abolished by the Public Order Act.

Which public order act?

Serjeant Buzfuz

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Which public order act?

As Occam's razor would suggest, the one we are discussing in this thread.,,

Little CuChulainn

Serjeant Buzfuz wrote: »

As Occam's razor would suggest, the one we are discussing in this thread.,,

Breach of the peace was not abolished in the public order act. It is still a common law offence with a power of arrest. This was confirmed in Thorpe v D.P.P. as far as my memory goes. Unless this case has since been overruled.

Serjeant Buzfuz

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Breach of the peace was not abolished in the public order act. It is still a common law offence with a power of arrest. This was confirmed in Thorpe v D.P.P. as far as my memory goes. Unless this case has since been overruled.

It ses that even the Serjeant can be wrong, apologies Cuchulainn though I wonder how that decision reached in view of the preamble to the Act

Pat Mustard

Serjeant Buzfuz wrote: »

The common law offence of Breach of the peace was abolished by the Public Order Act.
Public place defined pretty loosely in the Act, in my experience Judges rarely allow this technical defence

Thorpe v DPP (2006)

Case stated*

“Is the offence of the breach of the peace contrary to common law known to law? If the answer to that is yes, may the offence be prosecuted in the District Court and, if so, what is the available penalty.”

the answer to the question posed in the case stated* should be as follows:
1. Is the offence of breach of the peace contrary to common law known to law? Yes, there is authority in this jurisdiction for this statement.
2. If the answer the first question is yes, may the offence be prosecuted in the District Court and, if so, what is the available penalty? Yes. The penalty resultant on conviction is a matter for the District Court acting within the sentencing limits of the District Court.

On the basis of McConnell v. Chief Constable [1990] 1 All E.R. 423, breach of the peace may arise in a private premises.

Pat Mustard

Serjeant Buzfuz wrote: »

I wonder how that decision reached in view of the preamble to the Act

The preamble of the 1994 Act refers to abolition of certain common law offences.

The public order act expressly abolished several other common law offences to include riot, affray and unlawful assembly.

No mention is made of abolition of the old common law offence of breach of the peace. By reference to McConnell v. Chief Constable, Murphy J. (in Thorpe) stated that breach of the peace at common law may arise in private premises. I think that relates back to what the OP asked.