Genomics Scheme - Confused

MollyRo

Hi

We have joined the new scheme with icbf. I understand it on a basic level and its purpose, however, I am finding aspects of it confusing.
We have a good quota for replacement etc so I'm not worried about that so much.

Firstly - Will we get an instruction booklet whereby we will be told when to record certain things such as weights, calves performance etc? We work full time as well and it would make our lives a little easier if we had something like this guiding us through.

Secondly - The stars.... I have a number of issues here... While the best cows we have were given the great rating they deserved, alot of very fertile milky great cows received crap ratings. Thats fine, I won't worry about that right now, however, we need to replace these cows effectively over the next few years with so called 4/5 star replacement heifers... according to the scheme.

Ideally we could breed our own or buy in but identifying them could be a problem at the moment given that the dairy men are not in on it yet. We buy in from dairy and the heifers could be ideal.... now that its focusing on milk and fertility for replacement index.

My frustrations lies mostly with the pedigrees.

I have 2 pedigree ladies - a heifer and a cow.

My limo heifer rated as a 4 star €139 in august 2014 26% reliability. She hasnt been tested in her own right yet but she dropped to 1 star with the reliability up by 1 at 27%. Teagasc told me to get rid of her... I am really disappointed that this was advice I was given...

I understand that the relations performance influences the star rating and her fathers best trait was daughter milk. Her mothers ancestry was amazing, 5 stars all around bar milk.
So what I'm wondering is could this heifer prove herself yet as she hasnt been put in calf - will do next season, and also how can this rating drop so much with 1% reliability increase?? And the advice I was given was most upsetting. These animals are not cheap and easy bought and I bought her for breeding.

My Charolais cow was also given a rubbish rating. I put her in calf to a 5 star terminal well proven bull 80% reliability, culled at 10 year old - was very happy to continue his line, best bull we ever had. She had a bull by him who has now been given a rubbish rating based on her mothers stars from what i can gather. He is above average weight for his age and thrived. She is in calf again to a 4 star terminal.
He had plenty of milk from her up til 9 months old weaned him off naturally. He'll be going to work next season. What is annoying me is that I can see him thriving, lots of milk and both of them get a useless rating...


My Limo bull just started working last year and his calves are great. He was rated according to ancestors and hasn't been tested yet. He is 3 stars rep and term. His calves are excellent, thriving greatly and very well shaped - and I had him with my least rated cows.
None of these pedigrees have tested yet and I will be doing so when we get our tags in.
What I'd like to know is how reliable are their ratings once they have been tested genomically in terms of terminal and replacement star ratings? They could only get better with the ladies as far as I can see..
I'm reluctant to get my advice from teagasc as they are not treating this as a pilot but are actually very definite in their answers - this is what worries me.

Anyways, is anyone else confused or is it me and if anyone has any light to shed on my queries I would be so grateful

Cheers

patsy_mccabe

In a nutshell, this scheme (Beef Data and Genomics Programme (BDGP) 2015 - 2020) is all about Genetics. An animal gets half it's genetic makeup from it's mother, half from it's father. How an animal performs itself has very little bearing on measuring it's own genetic value. You would really need to take numerous calves from the same cow and bull and average all their performances to get a better reflection of it's genetic make up.
It's a bit like having a very fast horse but when it goes to stud, it breeds very badly. But say, if that horse came from a very long line of fast horses on both sides of it's breeding, you would find it too would breed well. More likely to do anyway.
As for testing the animal itself from the ear sample, this is more to do with building up a database on genetics and identifying genetics that are more profitable to Irish farmers. Results from these ear tests won't effect the animal ratings. Not for the time being anyway.

The biggest mistake farmers could make with this scheme is to cull their good cows, just because they have poor star ratings.

MollyRo

Hi

Thanks for that.
How can the change of star ratings be explained and will they continue to bounce up and down or just downward??

So basically its a waiting game to see how my animals perform? Is this how they kill out or weaning weight etc?

Hopefully my limo heifer takes after her mothers side? Who knows...

Sorry am so confused about this part of it

Cheers

patsy_mccabe

On average, half the animals ratings should go up, half will go down. It's a game of statistics really. ICBF have never explained exactly how they calculate the values. I don't know how much weight they put on animals own performance for axample, compared to it's relatives.
The whole scheme really was set up to push more farmers into choosing animals based on their star ratings rather than buying with their eyes. An animlal can look good if it is well fed and groomed before a sale. Unfortunately a lot of farmers buy still judge a bull by it's looks.

MollyRo

Yes, you're right

My issue is really my pedigree bull that I bred
his ratings are terrible despite excellent proven history of his father and his own growth rate... hopefully he'll prove himself yet...

My heifer is a huge disappointment with her star rating dropping so much within a year... Is there a possibilty she will take her maternal genetic traits? If so that would be brilliant... I'm going to breed her anyway, I have hope!

MollyRo

Another thing I have found is that some of my 5 stars are missing a sire... 4 year old cow with 5 stars... Its things like this that makes it difficult to understand

blue5000

MollyRo wrote: »

Another thing I have found is that some of my 5 stars are missing a sire... 4 year old cow with 5 stars... Its things like this that makes it difficult to understand

Did you buy them in? If they were registered properly when they were born and you bought them in without knowing the sire, ICBF might still have the sire from when they were registered.

MollyRo

blue5000 wrote: »

Did you buy them in? If they were registered properly when they were born and you bought them in without knowing the sire, ICBF might still have the sire from when they were registered.

I'll have to look at their cards. I'm just getting used to the system and looking around it. Discovered 6 5 star replacement heifers from this years calves so I'm happy enough with my findings today. This will take a little bit of getting used to!

annubis

folks are the people who have been accepted into this scheme able to view something under the Beef Data Genomics Programme (2015 - 2020) link on dept website when they log in?

ive still received nothing in post and can see nothing under the link so wondering what everyone else can see?

50HX

annubis wrote: »

folks are the people who have been accepted into this scheme able to view something under the Beef Data Genomics Programme (2015 - 2020) link on dept website when they log in?

ive still received nothing in post and can see nothing under the link so wondering what everyone else can see?

i have recieved the star ratings and the tags for sampling
when i log into agfood it just states that the scheme is closed

you should get your ratings this week at the latest - give icbf a shout

annubis

50HX wrote: »

i have recieved the star ratings and the tags for sampling
when i log into agfood it just states that the scheme is closed

you should get your ratings this week at the latest - give icbf a shout

thanks
have been onto dept 3 times and they assure me my application is ok but im starting to get a bit worried

50HX

i know where you are coming from... i was getting a bit tetchy as well til it came

ring icbf 2mor & they will tell you if you are up on their system or not

later the better(sample when they are being housed) as once sample come they've to be sent back within 28days