Respecting guards vs standing up for my son

fineso.mom

Earlier this evening I had to collect my 15 yr old son from the local garda station. He'd been asked to leave an area and according to the guard he started mouthing off and was abusive. He was cuffed and brought to the station.
When I got there I was told he was abusive to everyone he came in contact with at the station and that a juvenile liaison officer will be in touch at some stage.
I can handle all that and am so disappointed in my son. There will be major consequences at home as this is not behaviour that is acceptable to me.
I have always been positive about the Gardai and would be quick to defend them if someone was criticising them.
But here is my problem. My son says that while he was handcuffed and seated in the station, one guard caught him by the throat after he swore at another guard. Then the other guard hit him in the head twice. A third female guard laughed as this happened. He didn't tell me until we got home. I looked at his head and he has a lump and a cut on it. I asked him what the guard hit him with but he doesn't know as he couldn't see him. I don't think a fist could cause a cut like that but then I'm not used to that sort of thing.
He also has friction marks on his wrists but I've little sympathy there as he wouldn't have been cuffed if he'd just walked away.
On the one hand I'm so mad at my son. On the other...two big strong guards vs a cuffed teenager. I know they don't get paid enough for the s@@t they deal with but they can't do that surely.
I'm still in a bit of shock at the whole thing so can't think straight. Opinions are welcome.

keano25

When it comes to teenagers I'd take a lot of their stories with a pinch of salt so to speak.

Some Garda stations have CCTV in custody areas so if the story is true it may be captured on camera. If there is cameras there I can't see Gardai risking their jobs like that.

njs030

It would need to be a hard slap with something in his hand to cause a lump and a cut, I find it quite unlikely 3 guards would allow this to happen and even less likely that one would laugh!
I'd be more inclined to believe he had the lump on his head from before he was arrested and is using it to gain sympathy and get you on his side.

fineso.mom

Oh I know keano25 ,but he has a lump and cut so somebody hit him. And the guard I spoke to did tell me he'd pushed my son with his torch . My son told me the same and showed me the mark on his chest so that definitely happened. In fairness i haven't caught him in a lie ever. He's the type of fella who will tell the truth and take the consequences rather than bother trying to cover up.

Gatling

fineso.mom wrote: »

Oh I know keano25 ,but he has a lump and cut so somebody hit him. And the guard I spoke to did tell me he'd pushed my son with his torch . My son told me the same and showed me the mark on his chest so that definitely happened. In fairness i haven't caught him in a lie ever. He's the type of fella who will tell the truth and take the consequences rather than bother trying to cover up.

Sounds like I'm an innocent victim 101 .
Is there a chance there may have been a fight or other incident hence why the garda just happened to be where your son was before he refused to co operate and got detained

beyondbelief67

Might he of hit it getting into or out of the police car ? Especially if he was arguing while getting into it ?

freshpopcorn

You've to be very stern with your son.
He has to know if this is reported and if it's proved he's lying he'll cause serious trouble for you and himself.
I'd also make him aware of the consequences for the Gardai of His lying and if it's believed. i.e good people being sacked and they'll have no money to support their family.
I think your son could do with some extra support at home(knowing what he's up to/who he is hanging around with)(I'm not saying your a bad parent) perhaps encourage a pastime. If they are bad influences in his life these are one thing you need to stamp out.
Also I'd say he might get a Garda juvenile lesion office.
If he is telling the truth. You'd probably need to speak to the superintendent and a solicitor.

SterlingArcher

I'd be inclined to believe your son. And I think you do to.

njs030

fineso.mom wrote: »

Oh I know keano25 ,but he has a lump and cut so somebody hit him. And the guard I spoke to did tell me he'd pushed my son with his torch . My son told me the same and showed me the mark on his chest so that definitely happened. In fairness i haven't caught him in a lie ever. He's the type of fella who will tell the truth and take the consequences rather than bother trying to cover up.

He could have hit his head at any time during the day, or fallen or been hit by whoever he was hanging around with.
What did he do that necessitated being pushed with a torch? Was he squaring up to the guard and needed to be pushed away?

Guards put up with a huge amount of abuse and personal attacks, it's pretty unlikely a 15 year old mouthing off would be enough to make them risk their career and also risk a possible assault conviction.

Maybe call the station and ask what the procedure was when your son arrived at the station, ask who was present and how long he was sitting waiting to be put into a cell. The answers might give you more of an idea if your son could be lying before you make a complaint.

fineso.mom

notjustsweet wrote: »

It would need to be a hard slap with something in his hand to cause a lump and a cut, I find it quite unlikely 3 guards would allow this to happen and even less likely that one would laugh!
I'd be more inclined to believe he had the lump on his head from before he was arrested and is using it to gain sympathy and get you on his side.

Yeah it sounds unlikely and if it was his brother I'd be far more sceptical but everthing else he told me tallies. I spoke to the arresting guard for a few minutes before they brought out my son. We left straight away. Then my son told me what happened and it was the same as what the guard said.
There is an event on in the town near us and my son was at it. On the way out of the event he went to an area of the local park to meet up with his drive home. The guards had decided to close off that area for some reason. It was when the guard stopped my son going in that he got mouthy. Which he absolutely shouldn't have done aand that's why I have little sympathy for the marks from the cuffs and torch.
But, the lump on his head is different. I see what you're saying about him getting it earlier but he was with my friend for the whole event thing and left her to walk 2 mins down the street to get picked up.
Going to go to bed now. I'll get him to write out everything tomorrow and I'll have a chat with a guard I know.
It's an awkward position to be in. My young fella behaved disgracefully and I'm disgusted with him.......But if what he's telling me is true I'd like to have a word with the grown man who hit him.

SterlingArcher

fineso.mom wrote: »

Yeah it sounds unlikely and if it was his brother I'd be far more sceptical but everthing else he told me tallies. I spoke to the arresting guard for a few minutes before they brought out my son. We left straight away. Then my son told me what happened and it was the same as what the guard said.
There is an event on in the town near us and my son was at it. On the way out of the event he went to an area of the local park to meet up with his drive home. The guards had decided to close off that area for some reason. It was when the guard stopped my son going in that he got mouthy. Which he absolutely shouldn't have done aand that's why I have little sympathy for the marks from the cuffs and torch.
But, the lump on his head is different. I see what you're saying about him getting it earlier but he was with my friend for the whole event thing and left her to walk 2 mins down the street to get picked up.
Going to go to bed now. I'll get him to write out everything tomorrow and I'll have a chat with a guard I know.
It's an awkward position to be in. My young fella behaved disgracefully and I'm disgusted with him.......But if what he's telling me is true I'd like to have a word with the grown man who hit him.

Was this event your son and friend were at perhaps a screening of straight outta Compton??

Seems strange your son, out with your friend at some event having a pleasant time. Left on his own. And suddenly turned into ice cube saying f the police.

I know you think your son acted disgracefully. But if he is telling the truth.

Wouldn't " their" the arresting officers character come into question.

Why would you have any reason to believe this gardai that assaulted him while another watched on sniggering.had In fact arrested him for a vaild reason or any wrong doing in the first place.

fineso.mom

Guys thanks for taking the time to reply. I fell asleep there so will reply to posts tomorrow.

IWJ

I was arrested once at the age of around 20 and the gaurds were being abusive and were on a power trip for definite.

As I was being brought into the station, one of the gaurds kicked me from behind. I looked back to ask why he'd done that and he just smiled.

If your son has marks I wouldn't disregard his story without further investigation.

However, even if he was abused, what can you do about it? Its their word against your sons.

mikepajero182

I was arrested for being a mouthy little 19 year old and got slapped and kicked. It does happen.

Diamond Doll

I'd be inclined to let it go.

There's no need to tell your son whether or not you believe his version of events. It doesn't sound like there was any permanent damage done. So if he brings it up again, simply tell him that it's unfortunate that it happened, but that he really shouldn't have put himself in that position of getting himself arrested in the first place. Tell him you won't be taking it any further with the Gardaí because it would simply be too difficult to prove, and it would only be coming down to his word versus theirs. And leave it at that.

Even if he is absolutely telling the truth and if they were purposely too rough with him, I'd be inclined not to give him the satisfaction of knowing that the Gardaí who arrested him were potentially getting into trouble because of what he told you. He needs to know that it's not like being in school - if he's going to act like a big hard man and create trouble for the Gardaí, he needs to accept the consequences like an adult, and mammy/daddy aren't going to create a big fuss over it if he comes crying to them afterwards.

I am absolutely not excusing the Gardas' behaviour (assuming he is telling you the whole truth - which tbh I'd take with a pinch of salt.) But you need to think of the best outcome for him here. I wouldn't give him even a trace of satisfaction from the whole incident by knowing that you were down at the station giving the Gardaí a bollocking.

I honestly find it very hard to believe that the Gardaí would be bothered risking an investigation by assaulting a minor. What had they to gain from doing so? And what have you to gain by going any further with this?

Dr Turk Turkelton

keano25 wrote: »

When it comes to teenagers I'd take a lot of their stories with a pinch of salt so to speak.

Some Garda stations have CCTV in custody areas so if the story is true it may be captured on camera. If there is cameras there I can't see Gardai risking their jobs like that.

Yes, it's not like the guards would ever act outside the law. And CCTV cameras operated by other guards would never be moved to protect their friends.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-guilty-of-waterford-assault-1.881478

Pawwed Rig

mikepajero182 wrote: »

I was arrested for being a mouthy little 19 year old and got slapped and kicked. It does happen.

This OP.
It is not unusual for a Garda to hand out a small bit of 'rough justice'. I remember once (when I was a child) hearing a Garda family friend bragging about what they would do to 'scumbags' (I am quoting) once they detain them. I have heard anecdotally and seen instances of it myself.
What you need to consider is
1. If your son is telling the truth.
2. If you want to do anything about it.

All of the Garda involved will deny anything happened and you can be sure there will be no cctv to back up your sons claims.
Essentially it will come down to the word of the 'respected Garda' v the word of a teenage boy who was behaving badly on the day in question.

CaraMay

If you do talk to the guards do not tell your son about it. He needs to believe that actions have consequences and that he was out of order. If he thinks they were at all out of order it will lessen the impact on him.

myshirt

I'd put it down to experience, it does certainly happen. Is there a man in this youngsters life? A good kick in the pants is likely what he needs; in any event, absolutely not for one minute should you offer any smidgen
of sympathy, I believe that would be a fatal mistake.

keano25

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Yes, it's not like the guards would ever act outside the law. And CCTV cameras operated by other guards would never be moved to protect their friends.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-guilty-of-waterford-assault-1.881478

Lol, you think Gardai have motorised cameras inside the station?

The fact you linked an article that states Gardai were prosecuted for doing exactly what your implying they did undermines your whole argument.

LegacyUser

Your son behaved abusively, had to be restrained, cuffed, taken to the station and now requires a liason officer and you're worried about a clip he got round the ear?

Don't you think it's sensible for the Guards to make the experience of a 15 year old thug as unpleasant as possible so that maybe, just maybe, he will think twice about how he got into that situation?

Meanwhile where were you? Why was a 15 allowed to get himself into this situation and why did he think it was ok for him to behave this way?

In your shoes I would be thanking the Guards profusely for meting out a bit of discipline seeing as it's probably the lack thereof that got the kid in this situation in the first place.

If your son whinges about the bump on his head shrug and tell him that if he didn't behave like a thug he wouldn't get treated like one.

If you even try to do anything about this the message you send to your son is that Guards are not to be respected and that you can go after them on minor technicalities. The big picture here is your kid caused this problem and a clip round the ear is the least of it. Your kid wasted Garda time, cost the state and taxpayers money, and behaved in a manner in public that required Garda intervention.

I certainly wouldn't be coddling poor diddums over a bump on his head.

LegacyUser

Knowing a few guards personally, I'd be inclined to believe your son. The mentality with rule breakers is "act like a scumbag& we'll treat you like a scumbag". However, your son is 15& clearly felt man enough to square up to challenge adults, hence the arrest. If this episode teaches him anything it should be to pick his battles,& choose the easier road in life than the harder one. Also, that while you believe& support him, there are consequences for bad behaviour, excessive or not,& that's a risk he shouldn't be taking. Not everyone he encounters will be law-abiding citizens, even the law-enforcers!

WheatenBriar

Op,not to put too fine a point on it,it sounds like your son was behaving like a brat and needs to learn the consequences
Spare the rod and spoil the child

strandroad

I don't condone what the gardai did if they did it but for his future it's far more important that your son faces your wrath and not a hint of your sympathy now.

Rekop dog

You should forget about pursuing action over this and instead focus your attention more on raising your son better. From garda I know the odd hiding isn't too uncommon an occurrence with people who behave appallingly like your son did. I'd be ashamed if I was you.

Compu Global Hyper Meganet

I'd be very surprised if your son is lying to you. I've had a couple of experiences with the Gardaí where I had intervened in certain situations as a good Samaritan and even with a clean criminal record (not even a parking ticket), I found them to be disgusting people.

<SNIP> unacceptable comments regarding our police force.

There is nothing you can do unfortunately. They will pretend that nothing happened and it will be his word against that of the Garda. Also, if you do try to raise a complaint, don't be surprised if they try to pin other things on your son. Like all bullies, they don't like it if you try to stand up to them.

Advice would depend on your son: is this an isolated incident or has he a bit of previous? I'm not a parent so I'll leave it to other posters to advise you in this regard. Just thought I'd let you know that the whole "Gardaí protect us from criminals" view is a myth. In unfortunate reality, Gardaí and criminals are two sides of the same coin.

keano25

Compu Global Hyper Meganet wrote: »

<SNIP>

Jesus.. That's enough internet for one day.

deisemum

I'd be inclined to believe your son going from what I've seen and heard over the years. I wouldn't do anything about it because your son will learn nothing from it and you'll only be leaving your family open to potential harrassment in the future.

eviltwin

I'd be inclined to ignore the behaviour of the gardai and focus on that of your son. In the scheme of things a few clips round the ear is minor, he's not badly hurt. I'd be more concerned about what led him to be taken to the station in the first place and his attitude. It's not the worst thing he could do but I'd be worried sick that if it's not nipped in the bud he could go on to ruin his future by acting out. I wouldn't even mention it to the gardai, I'd be apologetic and focus on getting to the bottom of his actions. Go easy on yourself, it's not your fault, I'm sure your mortified and concerned. I hope you're able to turn it around.

kylith

While I don't condone what the Gardai may have done, OP, I think that the best thing you can do is take this opportunity to teach your son that if he acts like a scumbag the Gardai will treat him like a scumbag.

Dan_Solo

I think you and your son will learn a valuable lesson from this for the future: Gardai<SNIP> and will quit before allowing CCTV in stations because they know they'd be done left right and centre.

noway12345

Report this OP, look to get CCTV footage from the station. Report it to the Garda ombudsman. Gardaí can't just physically assault your son. Do you think your son will have a positive view of the gaurds in future? He will have no respect for them and view them as scum. You have to teach your son a lesson, not all gardaí are like those in this case. Tell him his behaviour needs to improve but report the assault on him. It's the right thing to do.

Mark Tapley

Poor diddums wrote: »

Your son behaved abusively, had to be restrained, cuffed, taken to the station and now requires a liason officer and you're worried about a clip he got round the ear?

Don't you think it's sensible for the Guards to make the experience of a 15 year old thug as unpleasant as possible so that maybe, just maybe, he will think twice about how he got into that situation?

Meanwhile where were you? Why was a 15 allowed to get himself into this situation and why did he think it was ok for him to behave this way?

In your shoes I would be thanking the Guards profusely for meting out a bit of discipline seeing as it's probably the lack thereof that got the kid in this situation in the first place.

If your son whinges about the bump on his head shrug and tell him that if he didn't behave like a thug he wouldn't get treated like one.

If you even try to do anything about this the message you send to your son is that Guards are not to be respected and that you can go after them on minor technicalities. The big picture here is your kid caused this problem and a clip round the ear is the least of it. Your kid wasted Garda time, cost the state and taxpayers money, and behaved in a manner in public that required Garda intervention.

I certainly wouldn't be coddling poor diddums over a bump on his head.

Not surprised you went anonymous to spout that rubbish.
If the guards need to resort to violence to manage a fifteen year old they are not deserving of respect.
The OP is shocked at this incident which would suggest that the child does not have a history of such behavior . Also they say the boy is not prone to lying. Labeling someone as a thug after one incident where you do not have all the facts is unfair.
Asking where the parent was when this was happening is plain stupid. Do you expect them to be tied at the hip constantly.
Violence does not earn respect it earns fear and hate.

Gatling

Nobody has the facts on the situation

dudara

Posters - I have removed several derogatory comments regarding the Gardaí. Please restrain yourselves and stick to offering advice to the OP.

dudara

freshpopcorn

Unless the op gets back to us about what her son said today. We can't really comment on the situation any more.

fineso.mom

Thanks everyone for all the opinions. There's too many to reply individually but I'll try to answer some points.
This is the first time he's been in any sort of trouble with the guards.
He has gotten his name taken in matches for mouthing off to refs so he does have an issue with giving lip but up until now only on a pitch.
I did know where he was at the time. He was exactly where he was supposed to be to meet his drive home.
He was walked to the station from the event. It's only a few hundred feet.
He's apologised to me and the guards in the station and will be meeting a j l o next week. We called to the station today.
He has agreed to talk to a counsellor about controlling his anger and I'll be calling one tomorrow.
After we left the garda station we called to retired guard neighbour who explained to him that not all guards will put up with crap the same way so the best thing to do is whatever they say.
My issue was not about making a complaint. My issue was that he was going to have an attitude against guards in the future.
I think he realises that he behaved like an idiot and met a guard or two who had enough of idiots and weren't too bothered about handling him gently. And more importantly that the best way to stay out of the way of that type of guard is....behave.

So that's him sorted and as he's grounded for the foreseeable future I'm hoping he'll learn from it.
Apart from that. The retired guard rang me later and told me he'd be having a word with the guard who my son said hit him. He knows I'm not taking it further but told me he's seen that guard in action and could well believe it. I said he didn't have to as I basically told my son"yeah I believe you but tough luck, that's what happens if you mouth off to the wrong person ".
So, I'm leaving it at that. My son looked him in the eye and apologized and admitted he was an idiot and that's how I'm raising him , to take responsibility.

CaraMay

Well done op. I've huge admiration for you. Too many parents these days think ' oh no not my johnny - he's a saint'.

Fair play to you. He's a lucky guy to have a parent like you.

noway12345

You're right to teach your son this lesson but you're wrong to let the guard away with hitting him. Two wrongs don't make a right. Hopefully your son has learned and he will behave in future, the guard hasn't learned any lesson however and will continue with his behaviour.

Mark Tapley

CaraMay wrote: »

Well done op. I've huge admiration for you. Too many parents these days think ' oh no not my johnny - he's a saint'.

Fair play to you. He's a lucky guy to have a parent like you.

You have "huge admiration " for a parent who will accept their child being assaulted to teach them a lesson. I'm wondering who is the real menace to society.

Extensive research demonstrates that although corporal punishment may have a high rate of immediate behavior modification, it is ineffective over time, and is associated with increased aggression and decreased moral internalization of appropriate behavior. Additional negative outcomes associated with corporal punishment are:

Increased risk for physical abuse
Learning that aggression is an acceptable method of problem solving
Experiencing physical and emotional pain, which decreases learning capacity
Being less likely to learn why a certain behavior or action was wrong
Behaving out of fear in the future

https://www.aacap.org/aacap/policy_statements/2012/Policy_Statement_on_Corporal_Punishment.aspx

LegacyUser

I read through the thread and I think you handled this really well OP.Even better that you talked to the retired garda. If he was my 15 year old son, while I'd be annoyed at that Garda, my line to my son would be that this is called consequences.Get yourself into these positions, you leave yourself open to this kind of thing and sorry, but you haven't got a leg to stand on.To be honest, firstly he needs to learn that you can't fight his battles for him, and secondly, that if it (or worse)were to happen again, he could end up with worse injuries, and they may not be as a result of the behaviour of the Gardai.

The Garda was not right in his behaviour, but going in all guns blazing and demanding justice is not the right approach either.Nobody is above the law but nobody is perfect.

CaraMay

Mark Tapley wrote: »

You have "huge admiration " for a parent who will accept their child being assaulted to teach them a lesson. I'm wondering who is the real menace to society.

Extensive research demonstrates that although corporal punishment may have a high rate of immediate behavior modification, it is ineffective over time, and is associated with increased aggression and decreased moral internalization of appropriate behavior. Additional negative outcomes associated with corporal punishment are:

Increased risk for physical abuse
Learning that aggression is an acceptable method of problem solving
Experiencing physical and emotional pain, which decreases learning capacity
Being less likely to learn why a certain behavior or action was wrong
Behaving out of fear in the future

https://www.aacap.org/aacap/policy_statements/2012/Policy_Statement_on_Corporal_Punishment.aspx

There's no proof.

fineso.mom

Oh he's not a saint. But he's not a scumbag either. Thanks to all.

Mark Tapley

CaraMay wrote: »

There's no proof.

Did no one tell you that violence is not the way to get what you want? You and other posters celebrating the alleged assault on a child sickens me.

dudara

@Mark Tapley - this thread is not about corporal punishment. Please stick to offering advice to the OP.

dudara

Gatling

Mark Tapley wrote: »

alleged assault

"Alleged "

fineso.mom

Mark Tapley wrote: »

You have "huge admiration " for a parent who will accept their child being assaulted to teach them a lesson. I'm wondering who is the real menace to society.

Extensive research demonstrates that although corporal punishment may have a high rate of immediate behavior modification, it is ineffective over time, and is associated with increased aggression and decreased moral internalization of appropriate behavior. Additional negative outcomes associated with corporal punishment are:

Increased risk for physical abuse
Learning that aggression is an acceptable method of problem solving
Experiencing physical and emotional pain, which decreases learning capacity
Being less likely to learn why a certain behavior or action was wrong
Behaving out of fear in the future

https://www.aacap.org/aacap/policy_statements/2012/Policy_Statement_on_Corporal_Punishment.aspx

He's 15 ,not a little kid getting slapped in school or being exposed to consistent physical punishment. Research or not,I don't believe corporal punishment is a positive form of discipline.
But like I said he's not a little kid in school. He's a big kid who put himself in a situation where he got hurt . Not only that but because he was mouthing off and obviously wrong he put me in a position of not being able to protect him or defend him.
I'm not going down to the station all guns blazing asking for the man who hurt "my little johnny". "My little johnny"should have moved when he was told and not sworn at a guard.
Now. If "my little johnny " was walking down the street and the guards jumped him,I'd be talking to a solicitor and looking for justice.
But my little johnny ( who I love with all my heart by the way), wasn't jumped by the guards he swore at the guards and got hurt. That's not corporal punishment, that's life and tough s@@t.

Mark Tapley

fineso.mom wrote: »

He's 15 ,not a little kid getting slapped in school or being exposed to consistent physical punishment. Research or not,I don't believe corporal punishment is a positive form of discipline.
But like I said he's not a little kid in school. He's a big kid who put himself in a situation where he got hurt . Not only that but because he was mouthing off and obviously wrong he put me in a position of not being able to protect him or defend him.
I'm not going down to the station all guns blazing asking for the man who hurt "my little johnny". "My little johnny"should have moved when he was told and not sworn at a guard.
Now. If "my little johnny " was walking down the street and the guards jumped him,I'd be talking to a solicitor and looking for justice.
But my little johnny ( who I love with all my heart by the way), wasn't jumped by the guards he swore at the guards and got hurt. That's not corporal punishment, that's life and tough s@@t.

Inspirational, "thats life Johnny tough shìt". Any more like a punch in the balls is worth two in the head?

fineso.mom

fineso.mom wrote: »

So, I'm leaving it at that. My son looked him in the eye and apologized and admitted he was an idiot and that's how I'm raising him , to take responsibility.

That sounds positive OP. I'll leave it there as well as this is turning into a debate.

please PM a mod if you need the thread re opened for further advice.