Wanting To Die

Very Bored

Before I start, I have to say that I am very strongly humanist, though I'm more agnostic that absolute atheist. Equally though, I mean absolutely no offence in asking the following questions. Both of my parents are very committed Catholics and I respect them both for their beliefs even if they entertain no discussion of me being anything other than Christian though in my heart I know I'm not. In fact, the religion which appeals to me most is Judaism though that is an entirely different question.

What puzzles me is why Christian families (and this applies to other religions, of course, such as Judaism and, I think, Islam) treat death as such a sad occasion. Equally why does the person who is dieing not actually want to die? The whole ethos of Christianity is that life on Earth is just a staging point for a better place. If this is true, why is death not treated as a joyous occasion? If the person truly believes they are moving from a good place to an unbelievably wonderful place, why do they not actually want to die?

I can begin to understand it from the point of view of the family, who will miss the person concerned. But then, equally, that family will behave like that person is gone forever notwithstanding their Christian faith. Also, should there not be a sense of glee that that person has now entered an even better place than they were here?

Finally, how can Heaven be so wonderful? I'm already resigned to the fact that I can't go there even if it does exist because I am committedly humanist and agnostic, even though I would consider myself a decent person. However, my wife and my son are everything to me. If I was to die right after writing this message and by some fluke I ended up in Heaven, how can Heaven be wonderful for me without my wife and son to whom I would wish a very long and happy life? I know that some would say I would still be able to see and be with my wife and son always, but frankly I wouldn't want that. I am relatively young and so is my wife, I would hate the thought that if I were to die young she would stay on her own for thirty or forty years. I would actively hope she would find someone new, though I would like to hope a part of her heart still thought of me, and that she could find happiness again. However, I wouldn't want to see her be with another man, if you get my drift, that for me would be torture. Yet, they say, from Heaven I would see all. Plus that would bring a second argument, when she arrived in Heaven herself who would she choose, me or her second husband.

I genuinely hope that I have not caused any offence in asking these questions. As I said earlier, I am very humanistic and agnostic. In some sense I feel an attraction to Judaism, though, because my wife is Catholic I know that that will remain an attraction. That said, I am happy the way I am and think the most important thing is to try to be a decent person no matter what you actually believe in. Finally, I would like to say that I am asking these questions here because any deaths that have effected me directly have happened in a Christian setting and I would also like to add that I thoroughly respect beliefs and hope that I have not upset anyone by asking questions here.

santing

Thanks for these questions, they are very valid. We can indeed wonder why a Christian is afraid of death when he professes faith in the one who conquered death and brought forth life and immortality! How can I be afraid to leave this place and be with my best friend (Saviour/Lord) for ever?

Death is a reminder that on this earth all is not well. It came into this world (according to God's Word) because mankind disobeyed and sinned, so every death is a reminder that we failed God's law, God's norm. We are subject to corruption, both physically and spiritually. And death always leave a gaping hole ... our friends will miss us, and we will no longer experience the friendship of our friends.

So while a Christian should not have fear for death, it is only normal that we do not like our life being cut short, even when seeing our Saviour is far more joyful than the experiences we will miss.

Very Bored

santing wrote: »

Thanks for these questions, they are very valid. We can indeed wonder why a Christian is afraid of death when he professes faith in the one who conquered death and brought forth life and immortality! How can I be afraid to leave this place and be with my best friend (Saviour/Lord) for ever?

Death is a reminder that on this earth all is not well. It came into this world (according to God's Word) because mankind disobeyed and sinned, so every death is a reminder that we failed God's law, God's norm. We are subject to corruption, both physically and spiritually. And death always leave a gaping hole ... our friends will miss us, and we will no longer experience the friendship of our friends.

So while a Christian should not have fear for death, it is only normal that we do not like our life being cut short, even when seeing our Saviour is far more joyful than the experiences we will miss.

Thank-you for your reply. One thing I can't understand though is how can Heaven be so wonderful if you leave your dearest companions here on Earth? For example, if I were to die today and found out that I was wrong (seeing as I don't actually believe in Heaven) and by some quirk of fate God accepted a non-believer such as myself, I would still be separated from my wife and child and subsequently suffer the loneliness that came with that experience.

uck51js9zml2yt

Being afraid of death is a result of not actually being sure you are going to heaven. The big question from an RC point is "have I done brought to get there!"

As a Christian of 30 years I don't fear death. I know my sin is forgiven. I know I have a relationship with God, I know I have assurance of eternal life. For me to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
If you can get an online bible ,read Philippians chapter 1 verses 19-25. It sums up my views.

I had heart surgery last week. There was no fear. I was on life support during it with my heart stopped. I could of died. My only concern was leaving my wife and young kids on their own.

I knew a lady many years ago who at her husbands funeral was joyous. A stranger on the street asked someone who was getting married. He was directed to the widow:)

The thing Is that if your only being told you have to do something to be good enough to get the heaven, you'll never be sure you've done enough.
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.

fed up sick and tired

It is completely normal to fear death. That is the human condition, and without that instinct we just wouldn't be as we are.

Death is a sad occasion because we know we are not going to see that person again. So it's a selfish sadness. Nothing wrong with that though.

Christianity, Judaism, heaven, grace, works... all that stuff is just a human construct to ameliorate an inevitable, unknown fate, after all.

Like all 'medicines' it works better on some people than on others.

Very Bored

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

Being afraid of death is a result of not actually being sure you are going to heaven. The big question from an RC point is "have I done brought to get there!"

As a Christian of 30 years I don't fear death. I know my sin is forgiven. I know I have a relationship with God, I know I have assurance of eternal life. For me to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
If you can get an online bible ,read Philippians chapter 1 verses 19-25. It sums up my views.

I had heart surgery last week. There was no fear. I was on life support during it with my heart stopped. I could of died. My only concern was leaving my wife and young kids on their own.

I knew a lady many years ago who at her husbands funeral was joyous. A stranger on the street asked someone who was getting married. He was directed to the widow:)

The thing Is that if your only being told you have to do something to be good enough to get the heaven, you'll never be sure you've done enough.
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.

This is where my own thoughts would differ and why Judaism appeals to me. According to Judaism, you can get to Heaven simply by being a good and decent person. I find it off-putting when certain strands of Christianity refer to Heaven as a closed shop solely for believers, people develop their own theories for a multitude of reasons and it does seem overly harsh to essentially believe that someone will go straight to Hell regardless of whether they were decent or not in life. Also, the idea that someone who is a bad person can go to Heaven simply because they believe is not something that sits well with me either. I digress though.

Manach

From a , offhand, Catholic PoV this is part of the natural part of life and just as birth is accompanied by a sacrament so is death. Hence while it is part of the times of change and transition(Ecclesiastes ) so to is the measure of mourning that is part of the tradition. This exists as an aid and comfort to those left behind to continue their journey on this earth.

uck51js9zml2yt

Judaism is also a closed shop heaping a load of laws on the person which he must follow.
The problem with keeping laws is that we inevitably break one.

Very Bored

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

Judaism is also a closed shop heaping a load of laws on the person which he must follow.
The problem with keeping laws is that we inevitably break one.

Within Judaism itself yes, this is true, though there are varying sects within Judaism that follow the laws to a greater or lesser degree. However, Jews actively discourage converts for this reason, explaining that it is easier and perhaps more fruitful to follow the Bnei Noachide laws instead which are essentially little more than basic human morals.

lazybones32

Very Bored wrote: »

What puzzles me is why Christian families ... treat death as such a sad occasion.

Because death is a sad occasion mostly. Even if a person has lived their whole life, their loss hurts us. 2 weeks ago today, and about this time, 2 men died tragically in Limerick when their cage went into the water. Even if these men are in Heaven, their families, partners, children and friends are still suffering on account of their sudden departure. The natural order has been upset and there is no way to undo it.

Very Bored wrote: »

But then, equally, that family will behave like that person is gone forever notwithstanding their Christian faith. Also, should there not be a sense of glee that that person has now entered an even better place than they were here?

The person is gone forever. Never again will he/she visit us in this Life; never again to hear their voice; have a laugh with them or even fight with them. We are the ones left behind and we must live the rest of our lives without those whom we loved very much and were a large aspect of our life and even our self.
We may meet them in Heaven but until then, we will not see them, hear them, enjoy them, love and be loved by them. All we have are memories and memories fade.

santing

So in the end it boils down to which heaven you want to go ... taking in consideration that there most likely only will be one heaven (and I understand that you're not sure about that even.)

But if there is a heaven, I think it would be advantageous to ask the Ambassadors of Heaven the right questions, because if it is a desirable place there are most likely lots of opinions around, but the opinions about heaven will not help you getting a residence pass.

Very Bored wrote: »

Finally, how can Heaven be so wonderful?... I know that some would say I would still be able to see and be with my wife and son always, but frankly I wouldn't want that... In some sense I feel an attraction to Judaism, though, because my wife is Catholic I know that that will remain an attraction. That said, I am happy the way I am and think the most important thing is to try to be a decent person no matter what you actually believe in.

Notavirus.exe

Very Bored wrote: »

What puzzles me is why Christian families (and this applies to other religions, of course, such as Judaism and, I think, Islam) treat death as such a sad occasion. Equally why does the person who is dieing not actually want to die? The whole ethos of Christianity is that life on Earth is just a staging point for a better place. If this is true, why is death not treated as a joyous occasion? If the person truly believes they are moving from a good place to an unbelievably wonderful place, why do they not actually want to die?

If you're moving out of your house that you've lived in all your and moving into your new mansion, you'd feel a little homesick, wouldn't you?

hinault

Very Bored wrote: »

Before I start, I have to say that I am very strongly humanist, though I'm more agnostic that absolute atheist. Equally though, I mean absolutely no offence in asking the following questions. Both of my parents are very committed Catholics and I respect them both for their beliefs even if they entertain no discussion of me being anything other than Christian though in my heart I know I'm not. In fact, the religion which appeals to me most is Judaism though that is an entirely different question.

What puzzles me is why Christian families (and this applies to other religions, of course, such as Judaism and, I think, Islam) treat death as such a sad occasion. Equally why does the person who is dieing not actually want to die? The whole ethos of Christianity is that life on Earth is just a staging point for a better place. If this is true, why is death not treated as a joyous occasion? If the person truly believes they are moving from a good place to an unbelievably wonderful place, why do they not actually want to die?

I can begin to understand it from the point of view of the family, who will miss the person concerned. But then, equally, that family will behave like that person is gone forever notwithstanding their Christian faith. Also, should there not be a sense of glee that that person has now entered an even better place than they were here?

Finally, how can Heaven be so wonderful? I'm already resigned to the fact that I can't go there even if it does exist because I am committedly humanist and agnostic, even though I would consider myself a decent person. However, my wife and my son are everything to me. If I was to die right after writing this message and by some fluke I ended up in Heaven, how can Heaven be wonderful for me without my wife and son to whom I would wish a very long and happy life? I know that some would say I would still be able to see and be with my wife and son always, but frankly I wouldn't want that. I am relatively young and so is my wife, I would hate the thought that if I were to die young she would stay on her own for thirty or forty years. I would actively hope she would find someone new, though I would like to hope a part of her heart still thought of me, and that she could find happiness again. However, I wouldn't want to see her be with another man, if you get my drift, that for me would be torture. Yet, they say, from Heaven I would see all. Plus that would bring a second argument, when she arrived in Heaven herself who would she choose, me or her second husband.

I genuinely hope that I have not caused any offence in asking these questions. As I said earlier, I am very humanistic and agnostic. In some sense I feel an attraction to Judaism, though, because my wife is Catholic I know that that will remain an attraction. That said, I am happy the way I am and think the most important thing is to try to be a decent person no matter what you actually believe in. Finally, I would like to say that I am asking these questions here because any deaths that have effected me directly have happened in a Christian setting and I would also like to add that I thoroughly respect beliefs and hope that I have not upset anyone by asking questions here.

It a very understandable reaction to recoil from human death. The instinct to want to remain alive is a good instinct. Self preservation is an innate trait in every single human being. Death is the only thing which can defeat the perseverance to "stay alive".

Of course for the believer, we know that the soul/spirit/consciousness can never die and therefore it reasonable to ask why would those who do believe
are sad at funerals.
All one can suggest is that perhaps the breaking of the human bonds concentrates the mind whereas perhaps contemplating the spiritual bond might assuage the sense of loss.

uck51js9zml2yt

As Paul said in Philippians , I am torn between departing band remaining.
For me its better to depart, for you its better that I stay.

Lord Riverside

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.

And you'll have to account for spinning the lie that's the belief of other Christians, and leaving out the word alone after works.

Do you think he'll be impressed when you shout Lord Lord at him, while waving an edited book of selectively quoted verses to suit yourself ?

uck51js9zml2yt

Lord Riverside wrote: »

And you'll have to account for spinning the lie that's the belief of other Christians, and leaving out the word alone after works.

Do you think he'll be impressed when you shout Lord Lord at him, while waving an edited book of selectively quoted verses to suit yourself ?

We are saved by grace through faith. When He said it was "Finished" , it was. Nothing more needed to be done.
Having been saved we then work out our salvation.

Lord Riverside

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

We are saved by grace through faith. When He said it was "Finished" , it was. Nothing more needed to be done.
Having been saved we then work out our salvation.

Dead faith won't get you anything, exactly the type of faith warned about in the letter Luther tried to get rid of.

santing

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Dead faith

I wonder, how did you come to that conclusion?

Lord Riverside

santing wrote: »

I wonder, how did you come to that conclusion?

They type of faith he's spinning is exactly the type scripture warns about. The scripture Luther tried to get rid off. All of scripture is required, not self selected heavily edited bits of it.

uck51js9zml2yt

Lord Riverside wrote: »

They type of faith he's spinning is exactly the type scripture warns about. The scripture Luther tried to get rid off. All of scripture is required, not self selected heavily edited bits of it.

What kind of faith am I spinning ? Please enlighten me.

santing

Lord Riverside wrote: »

They type of faith he's spinning is exactly the type scripture warns about. The scripture Luther tried to get rid off. All of scripture is required, not self selected heavily edited bits of it.

Maybe you can enlighten us a bit more and give us the correct quote?

J C

Very Bored wrote: »

What puzzles me is why Christian families (and this applies to other religions, of course, such as Judaism and, I think, Islam) treat death as such a sad occasion. Equally why does the person who is dieing not actually want to die? The whole ethos of Christianity is that life on Earth is just a staging point for a better place. If this is true, why is death not treated as a joyous occasion? If the person truly believes they are moving from a good place to an unbelievably wonderful place, why do they not actually want to die?

Death will be the last enemy to be destroyed (at the end of time). Christians are Human and they fell the pain of the death of their loved ones, like everyone else. Indeed Jesus Christ Himself wept openly at the grave of Lazarus ... such is the sadness of death.

Very Bored wrote: »

I can begin to understand it from the point of view of the family, who will miss the person concerned. But then, equally, that family will behave like that person is gone forever notwithstanding their Christian faith. Also, should there not be a sense of glee that that person has now entered an even better place than they were here?

Death is a direct result of the Fall of Mankind and thus is something to be sad about. However, we have the assurance that we will meet our loved ones again ... and thus death, for a Christian is something like somebody going to a far away land where we will be separated from them for a number of years ... even though we can look forward to seeing them again the separation can be quite painful nonetheless.

Very Bored wrote: »

Finally, how can Heaven be so wonderful? I'm already resigned to the fact that I can't go there even if it does exist because I am committedly humanist and agnostic, even though I would consider myself a decent person.

That is your free choice ... but I would urge you to reconsider this ... but I respect whatever decision you ultimately make.

Very Bored wrote: »

However, my wife and my son are everything to me. If I was to die right after writing this message and by some fluke I ended up in Heaven, how can Heaven be wonderful for me without my wife and son to whom I would wish a very long and happy life? I know that some would say I would still be able to see and be with my wife and son always, but frankly I wouldn't want that. I am relatively young and so is my wife, I would hate the thought that if I were to die young she would stay on her own for thirty or forty years. I would actively hope she would find someone new, though I would like to hope a part of her heart still thought of me, and that she could find happiness again. However, I wouldn't want to see her be with another man, if you get my drift, that for me would be torture. Yet, they say, from Heaven I would see all. Plus that would bring a second argument, when she arrived in Heaven herself who would she choose, me or her second husband.

Matthew 22:23-33 has the answer to your question:-

23 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question, 24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother. 26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh. 27 After them all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”

29 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

Very Bored wrote: »

I genuinely hope that I have not caused any offence in asking these questions. As I said earlier, I am very humanistic and agnostic. In some sense I feel an attraction to Judaism, though, because my wife is Catholic I know that that will remain an attraction. That said, I am happy the way I am and think the most important thing is to try to be a decent person no matter what you actually believe in. Finally, I would like to say that I am asking these questions here because any deaths that have effected me directly have happened in a Christian setting and I would also like to add that I thoroughly respect beliefs and hope that I have not upset anyone by asking questions here.

Why would you even think you caused any offense?
Your questions are very reasonable, courteous and genuine and no reasonable person could take any offense at anything that you have said.

hinault

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

We are saved by grace through faith. When He said it was "Finished" , it was. Nothing more needed to be done.

Incorrect.

hinault

Lord Riverside wrote: »

They type of faith he's spinning is exactly the type scripture warns about. The scripture Luther tried to get rid off. All of scripture is required, not self selected heavily edited bits of it.

Exactly.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

Exactly.

You've made lots of statements without justifying them. Please enlighten us.

J C

wrote:

Originally Posted by tatranska
We are saved by grace through faith. When He said it was "Finished" , it was. Nothing more needed to be done.

hinault
Incorrect.

Nothing more needs to be done by Jesus Christ ... and nothing can be done by Humans, to forgive sin.

However, we are Saved by an expression of our will ... to believe on Jesus Christ ... and in that sense, we must do this to be Saved. We must equally repent of our sin.

tommy2bad

My take on this,
We don't want to die because life is a wonderful gift, we don't want to give it up even for an upgrade. Theirs no reason for a Christian to fear death but that's not the same as embracing it, regret and sadness are part of letting go, necessary before we can move on.
Why wouldn't we be sad at the loss of someone we love or even a stranger for that matter. Life is about living not just a test for entry to heaven, loosing that gift is always a little sad, a lot sad if it's someone who hasn't had a long life.

As to heaven and being lonely waiting for your loved ones to join you? Time as we experience it didn't apply in heaven. You might not be waiting!

316

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

You've made lots of statements without justifying them. Please enlighten us.

Do you want interweb links?

hinault

J C wrote: »

Nothing more needs to be done by Jesus Christ ... and nothing can be done by Humans, to forgive sin.

However, we are Saved by an expression of our will ... to believe on Jesus Christ ... and in that sense, we must do this to be Saved. We must equally repent of our sin.

And how does one repent one's sin?

MrPudding

So this God sent his son to save us all from hell, which he made and also pretty much guaranteed we would go to, and a book was written to guide us on how to get to heaven. This getting to heaven business is a pretty important aspect of what it is to be a christian, and yet you can't even agree on what you have to do to get there. LOL

You remind me of children arguing over how to get off santas naughty list.

MrP

Delirium

MrPudding wrote: »

So this God sent his son to save us all from hell, which he made and also pretty much guaranteed we would go to, and a book was written to guide us on how to get to heaven. This getting to heaven business is a pretty important aspect of what it is to be a christian, and yet you can't even agree on what you have to do to get there. LOL

You remind me of children arguing over how to get off santas naughty list.

MrP

MOD NOTE

Less of the mocking of Christian beliefs please.

Thanks for your attention.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

And how does one repent one's sin?

As John states in his letter. We have an advocate with God, Jesus Christ. If we confess our sin,He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteous.

uck51js9zml2yt

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

As John states in his letter. We have an advocate with God, Jesus Christ. If we confess our sin,He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteous.

To quote The Master. "Go and sin no more"

Lord Riverside

Interesting what people like to leave out and set aside from Gospels when it suits. In this case the parts of the gospels where Our Lord told the apostles "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" and "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained "

uck51js9zml2yt

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Interesting what people like to leave out and set aside from Gospels when it suits. In this case the parts of the gospels where Our Lord told the apostles "Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" and "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained "

I've never ignored those verses but never made madeca doctrine around them to the exclusion of the rest of scripture.

Lord Riverside

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

I've never ignored those verses but never made madeca doctrine around them to the exclusion of the rest of scripture.

So other than ignoring them and not quoting them, how have you implemented and abided by the instruction in these verses and incorporated them into your doctrinal claims ?

uck51js9zml2yt

Lord Riverside wrote: »

So other than ignoring them and not quoting them, how have you implemented and abided by the instruction in these verses and incorporated them into your doctrinal claims ?

This was clearly spoken to the Apostles. Most non catholic commentators conclude that it was for a specific purpose between the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and commencement of the New at Pentecost.
Of course the only concept of "apostolic succession" in within the R C doctrine and has no biblical basis.

J C

hinault wrote: »

And how does one repent one's sin?

We repent of our sin before Jesus Christ and asking His forgiveness.

J C

MrPudding wrote: »

So this God sent his son to save us all from hell, which he made and also pretty much guaranteed we would go to, and a book was written to guide us on how to get to heaven.

God actually gave us a way to be certain of getting to Heaven ... and it is Salvation in Jesus Christ. Hell is actually a creation for Satan and his fallen angels. God will confine him there simply because Satan would turn Heaven (or anywhere else, for that matter) into a Hell, if he was allowed to dwell there.

MrPudding wrote: »

This getting to heaven business is a pretty important aspect of what it is to be a christian, and yet you can't even agree on what you have to do to get there. LOL

Your observation is valid. The first item on the agenda when Christians meet is too often ... a split ... or at least a good argument!!!
However, I suppose, open and respectful expression of difference is healthy.
The Bible makes it abundantly clear how we must be Saved.
I guess we can choose to accept this ... or we can add further 'terms and conditions' of our own.

Lord Riverside

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

This was clearly spoken to the Apostles. Most non catholic commentators conclude that it was for a specific purpose between the fulfillment of the Old Covenant and commencement of the New at Pentecost.

Apart of course from the elephants in the room of what Christ actually said and what the apostles actually did. What are the details of this secret 'specific purpose' these 'commentators' have conveniently invented ? I've never heard that one answered with any evidence, they just waffle off in some other direction hoping at all costs to divert attention from these passages in the Gospels.

Lord Riverside

MrPudding wrote: »

This getting to heaven business is a pretty important aspect of what it is to be a christian, and yet you can't even agree on what you have to do to get there. LOL

Or rather the 30,000 plus, and still splitting among themselves every day, non catholic churches / denominations can't.

J C

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Or rather the 30,000 plus, and still splitting among themselves every day, non catholic churches / denominations can't.

Not quite ... the Roman Catholic Church maintains a sort of unity by, pretty much allowing everyone to believe what they wish (or certainly act as if they believe what they wish) on most issues. I don't say this as a criticism ... merely as a fact.

Some groups take issue with something and formally or informally schism from Rome ... the followers of Archbishop Lefevre, being an example ... and all of the Reformed Churches down the centuries.
There is nothing wrong with theological disagreement ... it is a healthy sign that a church membership is alive and fully engaged.

Lord Riverside

J C wrote: »

Not quite ... the Roman Catholic Church maintains a sort of unity by, pretty much allowing everyone to believe what they wish (or certainly act as if they believe what they wish) on most issues. I don't say this as a criticism ... merely as a spin /untruth / lie.

FYP

J C wrote: »

Some take issue with something and formally or informally schism from Rome ... the followers of Archbishop Lefevre, being an example ... and all of the Reformed Churches down the centuries.
There is nothing wrong with theological disagreement ... it is a healthy sign that a church membership is alive and fully engaged.

Which contradicts your first paragraph and shows it up for what it is

J C

Lord Riverside wrote: »

FYP



Which contradicts your first paragraph and shows it up for what it is

I don't think that either paragraph contradicts the other. Many Roman Catholics divorce and contracept to their hearts desire in direct contravention of Roman Catholic dogma ... and stay firmly within the Church.
Others fall out with Rome and enter into schism and/or set up their own churches.
Many of the 30,000 church formations that you talk of were splits away from Roman Catholocism as well as the legitimate formation of new local churches.
The nature of Biblical Christianity is the setting up of local churches that are independently and locally governed - and there is nothing wrong with that.

... and please quote me accurately ... I never said "merely as a spin /untruth / lie" ... and I'd also ask you to not engage in such un-parliamentary language.

Anyway, how does one get to Heaven according to the Roman Catholic Church?

hinault

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

As John states in his letter. We have an advocate with God, Jesus Christ. If we confess our sin,He is faithful and just to forgive and cleanse from all unrighteous.

How does one confess ones sins?

hinault

J C wrote: »

We repent of our sin before Jesus Christ and asking His forgiveness.

How does one repent or confess ones sins?

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

How does one confess ones sins?

As no one can forgive sin but God, we go to Him.
Equally if we wrong someone we also put it right.

hinault

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

As no one can forgive sin but God, we go to Him.
Equally if we wrong someone we also put it right.

I know that only God can forgive sin.

I'm actually interested in reading how a non-Catholic seeks forgiveness and how absolution is dispensed.

looksee

Non-Catholics do not seek absolution through a third party, its between them and god. My theology is a bit vague (as in long ago ) here, but forgiveness is sought and has already been given, so far as I recall.

Very Bored

Annika Hot Fox wrote: »

As no one can forgive sin but God, we go to Him.
Equally if we wrong someone we also put it right.

Sorry but to me that makes no sense whatsoever. If I commit a "sin" against my wife or father for example, I seek (and hopefully gain) their forgiveness and it is for them to forgive me, nobody else.

santing

Very Bored wrote: »

Sorry but to me that makes no sense whatsoever. If I commit a "sin" against my wife or father for example, I seek (and hopefully gain) their forgiveness and it is for them to forgive me, nobody else.

If the sin involved a crime, then even when your wife or father forgives you, it is the duty of the state to persecute. Sin is always a crime against God.