Travel for work? .....some goods news :-)

Youngblood.III

"Time spent travelling to and from first and last appointments by workers without a fixed office should be regarded as working time, the European Court of Justice has ruled"

Anyone affected?

freethearmy

explain more?

Youngblood.III

This time has not previously been considered as work by many employers.

It means firms including those employing care workers, gas fitters and sales reps may be in breach of EU working time regulations

More here
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34210002

Youngblood.III

More here..

http://m.ft.com/cms/s/0/3482f4d0-57cc-11e5-a28b-50226830d644.html

Stheno

If this applies to mobile workers like consultants that would add 50% to what I would be paid on some days as I can be travelling for up to 4 hours if I am working on a client site sometimes.

And it's not infrequent in the last ten working days I travelled that amount 6 of the days as I was on client sites in a different city than Dublin

That would be a massive hit employers would have to take.

Youngblood.III

As a consultant are you self-employed?

Stheno

Youngblood.III wrote: »

As a consultant are you self-employed?

Yes but I know a fair few who are on permanent contracts so I was thinking of them.

They are all on salaries though so perhaps it only applies to people on hourly pay?

Youngblood.III

Stheno wrote: »

Yes but I know a fair few who are on permanent contracts so I was thinking of them.

They are all on salaries though so perhaps it only applies to people on hourly pay?

I'd say it's more to do with hours of work.. i.e included in your 39 week.

Saying that I know some guys in the trades who are being taken for a ride with travelling times, made to travel 3hrs per day on their own time..and no contribution towards costs either.
A bit of "do you want a job or not"

Stheno

Youngblood.III wrote: »

I'd say it's more to do with hours of work.. i.e included in your 39 week.

Saying that I know some guys in the trades who are being taken for a ride with travelling times, made to travel 3hrs per day on their own time..and no contribution towards costs either.
A bit of "do you want a job or not"

Yeah I reckon they'll need to clarify what they mean.
I.e. if you are working e.g. 9-5 and having to travel to customers two hours away either side of that, is that now classed as working 7-7?

Youngblood.III

As I see it,

If I jump in a van at 8am and am required to drive to different sites during my day, and finish at 5pm...but I'm half an hour from home. I'm to have the hours from 8am to 5:30pm included as work hours.

dreamers75

Youngblood.III wrote: »

As I see it,

If I jump in a van at 8am and am required to drive to different sites during my day, and finish at 5pm...but I'm half an hour from home. I'm to have the hours from 8am to 5:30pm included as work hours.

Not exactly, assuming the company owns the van. They could not allow you to drive it home and state your main place of work is work. The work you do involved driving so no change to working hours.

If you own the van you would probably be a sub contractor and it wouldnt apply.

This ruling will only affect a small number of people in reality. The article mentions gas fitters, you could lump in UPC, Sky ESb people into that too. Company would either remove the van and ensure you leave from "base" or sub contract the work. In reality is beneficial to both parties if the above group drive to customers premises.

Stheno

Youngblood.III wrote: »

As I see it,

If I jump in a van at 8am and am required to drive to different sites during my day, and finish at 5pm...but I'm half an hour from home. I'm to have the hours from 8am to 5:30pm included as work hours.

Yes same here, so to be more extreme if I've to drive to Cork the evening before to spend a day on a client site and come back that day, then rather than 9-5 this ruling will now consider that I've worked 3.5 hours the previous day driving to Cork, and then 9-5 and the 3.5 hours drive back, so it's gone from 8 hours to 15 hours worked.

Youngblood.III

dreamers75 wrote: »

Not exactly, assuming the company owns the van. They could not allow you to drive it home and state your main place of work is work. The work you do involved driving so no change to working hours.

If you own the van you would probably be a sub contractor and it wouldnt apply.

This ruling will only affect a small number of people in reality. The article mentions gas fitters, you could lump in UPC, Sky ESb people into that too. Company would either remove the van and ensure you leave from "base" or sub contract the work. In reality is beneficial to both parties if the above group drive to customers premises.

I'm sure a worker wouldn't object to leaving the work premises at 8am and be back there 8hrs later, to drop off the van. Employer pays for 8hrs...but if the employer tells the employee to stay at the job till 8hrs has passed, then drive van to base, employer will have to include the travel time on top of the 8hrs. Simple :-)

Stheno

dreamers75 wrote: »

This ruling will only affect a small number of people in reality. The article mentions gas fitters, you could lump in UPC, Sky ESb people into that too. Company would either remove the van and ensure you leave from "base" or sub contract the work. In reality is beneficial to both parties if the above group drive to customers premises.

I'm not so sure about that, in IT there are a fair few "mobile" workers, one previous contract I had in the past defined that as no fixed office

There are a fair few people working in IT

Celly Smunt

Anybody who is travelling for work tends to be a salary worker anyway, I don't know many who travel who are paid by the hour.

A_Sober_Paddy

Does this cover having to travail for work related training?

Example, you work in Cork, and the company you work for says you have to go training in Dublin, thats at least 5 hours travailing to and from...Are those 5 hours now payable?

Mrs OBumble

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Does this cover having to travail for work related training?

Example, you work in Cork, and the company you work for says you have to go training in Dublin, thats at least 5 hours travailing to and from...Are those 5 hours now payable?

I'd imagine yes - but if you're salaried then they will simply be regarded as part of what the salary covers.

To me it sounds like yet another European law which has the best of intentions, but will see employers here take a hard line in the opposite direction: eg give everyone a base which they have to be at by 9am even if the first client is 1/2 way between home and there, or make living in a certain distance of a typical client a condition of employment.

A_Sober_Paddy

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I'd imagine yes - but if you're salaried then they will simply be regarded as part of what the salary covers.

To me it sounds like yet another European law which has the best of intentions, but will see employers here take a hard line in the opposite direction: eg give everyone a base which they have to be at by 9am even if the first client is 1/2 way between home and there, or make living in a certain distance of a typical client a condition of employment.

Not for me or the 4 other staff who will do a training run once a year to Dublin, 6 in the morning trains and not home till well after 8, only get paid 8 hours

dreamers75

Stheno wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that, in IT there are a fair few "mobile" workers, one previous contract I had in the past defined that as no fixed office

There are a fair few people working in IT

IT workers will have a type of contract, that type of contract will control if this is relevant or not. Ie hours on site, price for the job at hand etc

Celly Smunt wrote: »

Anybody who is travelling for work tends to be a salary worker anyway, I don't know many who travel who are paid by the hour.

Salaried workers would have travel exepenses and not be on an hourly rate so your spot on there.

It really wont affect a lot of people.

Youngblood.III

I'd say it's main purpose is that the hours are down as work hours for your 39-40hr week.

evosteo

Workers set to be paid for travel to and from work after major ruling http://jrnl.ie/2324807

It looks set to affect workers with no fixed work place technicians, sales reps etc...

I wonder how this will pan out over here

Nody

A lot of people seem to miss the bolded part

"Time spent travelling to and from first and last appointments by workers without a fixed office should be regarded as working time, the European Court of Justice has ruled"

That means if you have an office even if you're not starting from there you are not included; this would cover a lot of the consultants etc. and I expect a lot of people will suddenly find new contracts with a specified office location as well in case they don't already...

Ronin247

How long will it take for the legal eagles to find a loophole for Irish employers? A lot of people are commuting up to 3 hours a day to Dublin from Galwy, Cork etc. If companies had to pay an extra 15 hours a week a lot of jobs will dissappear.

evosteo

Ronin247 wrote: »

How long will it take for the legal eagles to find a loophole for Irish employers? A lot of people are commuting up to 3 hours a day to Dublin from Galwy, Cork etc. If companies had to pay an extra 15 hours a week a lot of jobs will dissappear.

it will only affect people who dont have a fixed daily starting destination. if you work in an office or the likes i dont think it will apply

from what i can make out anyways

ted1

Ronin247 wrote: »

How long will it take for the legal eagles to find a loophole for Irish employers? A lot of people are commuting up to 3 hours a day to Dublin from Galwy, Cork etc. If companies had to pay an extra 15 hours a week a lot of jobs will dissappear.

Commuting is different. What this covers is if your based in Dublin but have to be at a site in Cork at 9 on Monday and say Galway on Tuesday. If your normal day is 9-5 then the 6 hours travelling need to be covered + the return if you don't get back till after 5

Tomagotchye

Ronin247 wrote: »

A lot of people are commuting up to 3 hours a day to Dublin from Galwy, Cork etc.

What?! Who the hell is doing that?

Nody

ted1 wrote: »

Commuting is different. What this covers is if your based in Dublin but have to be at a site in Cork at 9 on Monday and say Galway on Tuesday. If your normal day is 9-5 then the 6 hours travelling need to be covered + the return if you don't get back till after 5

Nope; that's not covered either. What it does cover is for people who do not have a fixed office location specified in their contract who gets to use the time of the commute to the first appointment as working time and the solution for companies is just as easy; specify a working location and the ruling means nothing.

Ronin247

Nody wrote: »

A lot of people seem to miss the bolded part



That means if you have an office even if you're not starting from there you are not included; this would cover a lot of the consultants etc. and I expect a lot of people will suddenly find new contracts with a specified office location as well in case they don't already...

Nody wrote: »

Nope; that's not covered either. What it does cover is for people who do not have a fixed office location specified in their contract who gets to use the time of the commute to the first appointment as working time and the solution for companies is just as easy; specify a working location and the ruling means nothing.

I don't think either of these are exactly what this means. The workers in Spain who won this case have a specified office in Madrid, which they do not go to. The Judgement is for workers who do not have a fixed place of work, as opposed to a specified office. e.g. the man who comes to your office once a month to service your coffee machine, he starts in a different location every day and may only go to his companies office once a fortnight for supplies. The time he spends driving to the first client site and home from the last client site is now considered part of his working day

From the ruling.....

" During those journeys, the workers act on the instructions of the employer, who may change the order of the customers or cancel or add an appointment. During the necessary travelling time – which generally cannot be shortened – the workers are therefore not able to use their time freely and pursue their own interests."

So the worker should be paid for this time.