Bull or a.i

dohc turbo2

What's yer opinion on keeping a bull for 25 sucklers, at the moment I've a stock bull , there is a lad interested in him since he heard I'm thinking of selling , was thinking of chancing a.i next year, keeping one of my bull calfs as a teaser, I work full time but my father lives beside farm and dose the handy bits . Ye think it be too hard work or stock bull better off?

farmerjj

A good quality stock is probably a easier job when your working full time, no missed heats.

Genghis Cant

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

What's yer opinion on keeping a bull for 25 sucklers, at the moment I've a stock bull , there is a lad interested in him since he heard I'm thinking of selling , was thinking of chancing a.i next year, keeping one of my bull calfs as a teaser, I work full time but my father lives beside farm and dose the handy bits . Ye think it be too hard work or stock bull better off?

I think a lot of people underestimate the amount of work involved with AI.
If they're spring calving you watching cows outdoors, several times a day, your record keeping needs to be excellent, your handling facilities need to be excellent. It's not game over when you AI the cow either. You're still watching to make sure!
You don't need me to tell you the advantages of AI, and there are several. But don't underestimate the work it involves.

patsy_mccabe

I started using a bull this year after 10 years or so doing AI. The main reason was I bred the bull myself. I'd say, if all goes well, my calving interval tightened up by maybe 10 days or so over AI. I also expect the quality and price I get for the weanlings to go down a lot.
There is a lot of work with AI and even with a teaser, it is hard to get the actual time of standing heat right. Teasers can follow a cow for up to 3 days. The upside of course is you can use lots of different bulls, breed good replacements and use proven easy calving for heifers to calf down young.
I'm 50/50 if I will sell the bull and go back AI'ing next year.

Milked out

try ai, if u could. Check before going to work as that is when most activity would be and again after. However if you are happy with bull and no daughters in herd I would hold on to him. Ai for 4 weeks and let him in then if you can. Syncronise your heifers and do them early he could stay with them until cows are done with ai and leave bull with cows then. A short ai period will allow you to focus for that period and allow the bull to clean up. If things dont go to plan you havent lost a whole season with them not holding and if they do go well you will have learned to read them better and could ai for longer next year. The bull is always a good back up if anything gets in the way of you watching em. If ai is stretched out it can be hard to keep concentration up so plenty observation early on is key, it's submission rates are as important if not more important as conception rates because if u don't notice em they Def won't go incalf

Bellview

use a bull here over past few years. last Dec I decided to try some AI on the earlier calvers in my place, I would keep a good eye & got them in heat etc etc. Used my AI man.. only 2 out of 10 stayed to AI. Ironically the bull got at them and no repeats. so instead of having a nice bunch of sept calves ... I have one lonely fella, waiting for his future buddies who will arrive in Oct courtesy of the bull... a good bull is worth a lot, finding the good bull is the challenge

dohc turbo2

Cheers lads , it's the getting them the right time is it alright , can't beat nature for spotting the heats ,

High bike

Next to impossible to catch sucklers with AI unless you see them 3 or 4 times a day and even at that your guaranteed to miss a couple,the bull is your only man and he does'nt mind what time of the day or night he's called.Leased a Charolais bull 2 yrs ago and never saw him in action once despite checking 2 or 3 times a day.Was convinced he was'nt working ,but when scanned all in calf.

Miname

I wouldn't be without a stock bull. Tried ai with very mixed results in regards to holding however there are always a few that il get and put ai to. The main thing with a stock bull is you have to get one to match all your cows. A good limo cow and a charlaois bull and you won't go far wrong.

High bike

Miname wrote: »

I wouldn't be without a stock bull. Tried ai with very mixed results in regards to holding however there are always a few that il get and put ai to. The main thing with a stock bull is you have to get one to match all your cows. A good limo cow and a charlaois bull and you won't go far wrong.

have to agree with you there had great results with the limo Charolais cross,but switched to a sim bull this year and happy out with the calves too:P

tanko

Bellview wrote: »

use a bull here over past few years. last Dec I decided to try some AI on the earlier calvers in my place, I would keep a good eye & got them in heat etc etc. Used my AI man.. only 2 out of 10 stayed to AI. Ironically the bull got at them and no repeats. so instead of having a nice bunch of sept calves ... I have one lonely fella, waiting for his future buddies who will arrive in Oct courtesy of the bull... a good bull is worth a lot, finding the good bull is the challenge

I don't understand how only 2 out of 10 cows/heifers went in calf if they were Ai'ed at the right time, I'd be expecting that to be 7 or 8 out of ten to first service. Does your Ai man know what he's doing?

As Genghis says time is a big issue with Ai, you need to be checking for heats 3 or 4 times a day. No teaser bull here, I find a few year old heifers with the cows great for showing what's in heat.
Also you need to train the cows to come into the yard when you need them in, a shake of nuts does the trick here.
Also a good crush and headlock which holds the cow still is very important, you can't expect good results from Ai if the cow can move in the crush too much.
I do my own Ai here and I'd be slow to go back to having a bull about the place.
Usually Ai about 30 cows/heifers every year and get 24/25 incalf to first service and the rest the second time, calving interval is averaging about 370 days so it can be done.
One of the suckler farmers that writes in the farmers journal asked the question a while back if it's worth the effort for farmers to use Ai when the returns most years are so sh1te, sometimes I wonder too.

kay 9

Only a couple of our weanlings this year out of ai are as good as the stock bull we had for 5/6yrs. The old man isn't a happy camper at all. Are the special bulls much better than the ordinary ones?

tanko

kay 9 wrote: »

Only a couple of our weanlings this year out of ai are as good as the stock bull we had for 5/6yrs. The old man isn't a happy camper at all. Are the special bulls much better than the ordinary ones?

There's all sorts of bulls in Ai, ranging from very poor to excellent.
Which Bulls is he not happy with?

patsy_mccabe

There's some really bad and some really good bull in AI. You'd be amazed the number of farmers that leave it up to the AI man to pick the bull.

Bellview

tanko wrote: »

I don't understand how only 2 out of 10 cows/heifers went in calf if they were Ai'ed at the right time, I'd be expecting that to be 7 or 8 out of ten to first service. Does your Ai man know what he's doing?

As Genghis says time is a big issue with Ai, you need to be checking for heats 3 or 4 times a day. No teaser bull here, I find a few year old heifers with the cows great for showing what's in heat.
Also you need to train the cows to come into the yard when you need them in, a shake of nuts does the trick here.
Also a good crush and headlock which holds the cow still is very important, you can't expect good results from Ai if the cow can move in the crush too much.
I do my own Ai here and I'd be slow to go back to having a bull about the place.
Usually Ai about 30 cows/heifers every year and get 24/25 incalf to first service and the rest the second time, calving interval is averaging about 370 days so it can be done.
One of the suckler farmers that writes in the farmers journal asked the question a while back if it's worth the effort for farmers to use Ai when the returns most years are so sh1te, sometimes I wonder too.

I question the ai boy also... All I can say is the times were right and the cows in good shape and facilities at home are good.. They all stayed first run with the bull....

Bellview

kay 9 wrote: »

Only a couple of our weanlings this year out of ai are as good as the stock bull we had for 5/6yrs. The old man isn't a happy camper at all. Are the special bulls much better than the ordinary ones?

What some folks consider special may be over priced semen in reality..I never understand the royalty sure crap that exists in some breed soc.

Sami23

Quick question for those of you with stock bulls, do you out-winter them or keep them on slats ?

Just curious as thinking of getting one maby next year.

Greengrass1

Bellview wrote: »

I question the ai boy also... All I can say is the times were right and the cows in good shape and facilities at home are good.. They all stayed first run with the bull....

Don't question the ai man till you know everything your doing is right.
We're cows getting mins - and i dont mean those buckets full of molasses. Give a bagged fertility mineral in a trough in the field and they will still eat it.
on good grass or good silage if inside?
Suckler cows should go incalf easier than dairy cows considering there not under any pressure.

White Clover

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Don't question the ai man till you know everything your doing is right.
We're cows getting mins - and i dont mean those buckets full of molasses. Give a bagged fertility mineral in a trough in the field and they will still eat it.
on good grass or good silage if inside?
Suckler cows should go incalf easier than dairy cows considering there not under any pressure.

Good points there GG. But, Suckler cows can be under pressure too. Not every cow puts it all on her back. Some of them can be too " generous ".

Mad4simmental

Suckler cows don't go Incalf as quick as dairy girls because they have a bond to the calf that tells natural system she dosnt haveto reproduce as quick as we want her to. Braking that bond ie twice a day sucking or letting calves creep into the next field will brake theat bond and kick her into gear agin.

patsy_mccabe

A Teaser Bull with Chain-ball marker is the best way to pick up heats in a suckler herd. Anything else is just second best. I've tried them all at this stage.

kay 9

tanko wrote: »

There's all sorts of bulls in Ai, ranging from very poor to excellent.
Which Bulls is he not happy with?

Mainly Brooklands & Millbrook dartangan, terrible thrivers, narrow front, rear and bad toplines. Granted they are tall and have good length but I wouldn't look twice at any of them at a mart tbh. On the other hand, we gave a few Heifers EBY which I think it's Elderberry Galahad and anything out of him are close to perfection. We'll definitely be down 100 a head they're so bad. In fact, me and the old man are thinking the ai technician made an error with the straws

Forgot to add, we gave a couple of other good cows tql and dandy for replacements and they are leaps and streaks ahead of them two bastad bulls mentioned above. If we don't buy a bull, will definitely consider the specials if they genuinely throw better stock.

kay 9

What's roundhill daras produce like? Many use him? We gave him to a few this year

farmerjj

Sami23 wrote: »

Quick question for those of you with stock bulls, do you out-winter them or keep them on slats ?

Just curious as thinking of getting one maby next year.

Ya out wintered here, leave him in a field with a late Calvin cow and feed silage in a small round feeder in a passage, no hassle with him, only maybe given the field a roll in the spring

High bike

Only Ai'd 3 this year HCA limo,LZR saler and STQ bb first two kept 1st time and last one 2nd time,anyone any views on these Bulls?

ferger1

I stand to be corrected, but isn't there something about some AI bulls have better conception rates than other. The AI companies have this information both don't shout about it, for obvious reasons.

Miname

Two Bulls here, one goes in with the cows then he gets a little break outside then the other comes back and so on for the winter. Sometimes they are both in with different batches but the little run out side for a few weeks keeps them right.

Bellview

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Don't question the ai man till you know everything your doing is right.
We're cows getting mins - and i dont mean those buckets full of molasses. Give a bagged fertility mineral in a trough in the field and they will still eat it.
on good grass or good silage if inside?
Suckler cows should go incalf easier than dairy cows considering there not under any pressure.

trust me I have good reason, cows are perfect, minerals etc. they all repeated & stayed to bull first go... we were averaging 350 days calving interval last 2 years .. reckon we will be closer to 380 this year.

Milked out

Bellview wrote: »

trust me I have good reason, cows are perfect, minerals etc. they all repeated & stayed to bull first go... we were averaging 350 days calving interval last 2 years .. reckon we will be closer to 380 this year.

Aside from Ai man could be a possibility straws weren't handled correctly prior to getting to you. I see some lads delivering here get a Styrofoam box full with liquid n and put the container with straws from his pot and receiving container from my pot in the box and then transfer using the tweezers yoke which is right way to do it then other lads just pull straws out with fingers and go from one pot to the other which may damage some straws. Can't prove it of course

Miname

Ai,d 16 one year and got one calf. The ai man hasn't been back, he was a temperamental pr..k anyway.

Genghis Cant

When I was a young lad we dealt with Enfield, PG nowadays.
The AI man, being a Meath man drove a car with the old Meath Reg, AI.
I thought it was cos he was the AI man he had that Reg.
Jaysus I was innocent!

Mac Taylor

AI all the pb animals and any heifers we are letting you, cows need to be in good condition, we tail paint and feed them a high energy beef nut. This year we ai'ed 6 and all bar one held to the first service. The one that didn't always takes 3 straws, so no expensive Straws for her, couldn't imagine going all AI though, fragmented farm and not enough time:D

Bellview

Milked out wrote: »

Aside from Ai man could be a possibility straws weren't handled correctly prior to getting to you. I see some lads delivering here get a Styrofoam box full with liquid n and put the container with straws from his pot and receiving container from my pot in the box and then transfer using the tweezers yoke which is right way to do it then other lads just pull straws out with fingers and go from one pot to the other which may damage some straws. Can't prove it of course

Good point but we have our out pot so handling would be minimal...we used different bulls so should not be a bad batch... We used him across heifers and cows so good mix etc. I never had much faith in this boy but he was used so it's a case of never again the ai lad ..

whelan2

Bellview wrote: »

Good point but we have our out pot so handling would be minimal...we used different bulls so should not be a bad batch... We used him across heifers and cows so good mix etc. I never had much faith in this boy but he was used so it's a case of never again the ai lad ..

The ai companies monitor the amount of repeats for each ai man, but its not much use if bulls are being used for second service, if I do notice a problem I let them know.

Future Farmer

The average suckler farmer has 14 cows? Is keeping a good stock bull an option? Surely you'd be better off AIing, breaking post partum bond early,using Heat Detection AIDS and synchronising, which are all fairly cheap - tight calving window!

Also, average calving interval is circa 415 days for a suckler cow, around 25% calf every 365 days, most are with stock Bulls most are bred by stock Bulls, this is nationally an incredibly poor performance.

The BDGP won't fix everything, but it may encourage suckler farmers to think more about Replacement Traits - Calving Ability, Milk & Calving Interval.

patsy_mccabe

You have to put it in perspective, at 14 cows and say an increase of €100 per weanling sold, is it really worth all the extra work. And €100 is stretching things a bit.

Bullocks

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I started using a bull this year after 10 years or so doing AI. The main reason was I bred the bull myself. I'd say, if all goes well, my calving interval tightened up by maybe 10 days or so over AI. I also expect the quality and price I get for the weanlings to go down a lot.
There is a lot of work with AI and even with a teaser, it is hard to get the actual time of standing heat right. Teasers can follow a cow for up to 3 days. The upside of course is you can use lots of different bulls, breed good replacements and use proven easy calving for heifers to calf down young.
I'm 50/50 if I will sell the bull and go back AI'ing next year.

You mightn't be too disappointed at all with prices from the stock bull . Sure isn't there great breeding everywhere now really ,and just picking the right one the same as an ai bull .
We hired in a bull last year and are just as happy with his calves as we were with the previous ai one . We had a few tough pulls out of the ordinary but that's it .
We hired an angus this year that ain't going to throw anything great I'd say but we never changed him so it is what it is now !

Bellview

Future Farmer wrote: »

The average suckler farmer has 14 cows? Is keeping a good stock bull an option? Surely you'd be better off AIing, breaking post partum bond early,using Heat Detection AIDS and synchronising, which are all fairly cheap - tight calving window!

Also, average calving interval is circa 415 days for a suckler cow, around 25% calf every 365 days, most are with stock Bulls most are bred by stock Bulls, this is nationally an incredibly poor performance.

The BDGP won't fix everything, but it may encourage suckler farmers to think more about Replacement Traits - Calving Ability, Milk & Calving Interval.

the average guy is also working so the he/she may not be around to watch. Sucklers can be tough to catch bulling even with all tricks of trade.

If you take a real critical view of the Angus bulls in AI there are superior stock bulls in the country than any of what the AI's have to offer. I often question the purchasing of some of the Angus bulls that are in AI today as the 'breeders' are well connected to the AI companies buying the bulls.. that is not good for the breed itself or make guys consider AI as an alternative to stock bulls

On specific bloodline, again on Angus there is Nord who has bred good beef cattle... yet the stars rate him 2 star, coneyisland legend also 2 star eventhough he again bred good cattle and I have 3 grand daughters who are good milkers... at least their calves are in good order

my view is a good mix works best but following the stars is also dangerous today as crap reliability and there are too many related bulls ... ie for some reason all AI's have decided they need a rossiter son even though they are hard cattle to finish and there is only one great calf for10 poor ones...but in the stars he is considered 'great'

Bellview

whelan2 wrote: »

The ai companies monitor the amount of repeats for each ai man, but its not much use if bulls are being used for second service, if I do notice a problem I let them know.

pity they could monitor where they store straws as NCBC recently lost 100 bohey jasper straws.... and so far their response has been they really don't know and appear to don't care... will be interesting what if their management will make any comment

patsy_mccabe

I'd have to admit though, I've been gobsmacked by some of the bulls in AI. I've had weanling bulls at over 430Kg at 9 months from small but milky cows and bulls like FL21, HWN and LGL. The well proven easy calving AI bull have never let me down either. I've never lost a calf when calving down at 2 years.

blue5000

Sami23 wrote: »

Quick question for those of you with stock bulls, do you out-winter them or keep them on slats ?


Just curious as thinking of getting one maby next year.

3 bulls here all out wintered together in a paddock the last few years, feed them over the fence. I tried ai on a bunch of heifers a few years back, very hard to get them all in calf. If I was doing it again I would synchronize them.

Miname wrote: »

Ai,d 16 one year and got one calf. The ai man hasn't been back, he was a temperamental pr..k anyway.

Did you try a chain on his nose?:rolleyes:

OP I think if you are working off farm a bull is the way to go, you could try a few long gestation ch or lim ai straws on a few cows about 2-3 weeks before you normally let the bull in. This way they'll calve around the same time as your cows that are served by the bull. But this will depend on what breed of bull you use.

For me with all spring calving cows a bull works better. If I was autumn calving, serving cows when they were inside, ai and a teaser bull might work ok. A lot of hassle watching cows and getting them in for ai, sure you might as well be milking them while you have them in:eek:

Limestone Cowboy

Couldn't work without a bull here anyway. Very fragmented farm along with not great handling facilities makes ai torture. If I had a handful of good pedigree cows I would put in the effort alright but on commercial cows I don't think it justify's the amount of effort put into it when a good stock bull will give you very similar results.

CloughCasey1

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Couldn't work without a bull here anyway. Very fragmented farm along with not great handling facilities makes ai torture. If I had a handful of good pedigree cows I would put in the effort alright but on commercial cows I don't think it justify's the amount of effort put into it when a good stock bull will give you very similar results.

Jaysys LC you have smashing calves as it is. Shows how good stock bull is as good as any AI.

Limestone Cowboy

CloughCasey1 wrote: »

Jaysys LC you have smashing calves as it is. Shows how good stock bull is as good as any AI.

They're grand but I don't think the heifers off him will have any milk. He didn't cost big money either but I travelled a long way to get him. Have 2 ai Charolais calves here by FSZ and vagabond and to be honest the lims out of the stock bull are way better calves to my eyes.

selectamatic

Bellview wrote: »

the average guy is also working so the he/she may not be around to watch. Sucklers can be tough to catch bulling even with all tricks of trade.

If you take a real critical view of the Angus bulls in AI there are superior stock bulls in the country than any of what the AI's have to offer. I often question the purchasing of some of the Angus bulls that are in AI today as the 'breeders' are well connected to the AI companies buying the bulls.. that is not good for the breed itself or make guys consider AI as an alternative to stock bulls

On specific bloodline, again on Angus there is Nord who has bred good beef cattle... yet the stars rate him 2 star, coneyisland legend also 2 star eventhough he again bred good cattle and I have 3 grand daughters who are good milkers... at least their calves are in good order

my view is a good mix works best but following the stars is also dangerous today as crap reliability and there are too many related bulls ... ie for some reason all AI's have decided they need a rossiter son even though they are hard cattle to finish and there is only one great calf for10 poor ones...but in the stars he is considered 'great'

+1 there are a few questionable ones included in the A.I roster alright and some of the ratings are a bit off too. We deal predominantly in angus so my post is specific to the angus breed but I'm sure there are issues with ai bulls right across all breeds. We have a stock bull sired by Lawsons ford bagatelle and his dam is from the herd that coneyisland legend was bred from. we're very happy with him quiet as a lamb and throws good calves with grand frames due to the bagatelle breeding but they finish a bit easier thanks to the coneyisland links. However I would say to get the size you need the breeding in the cow too I feel too many people think the bull will solve all the issues. DRUMDEEVIN DANCER (DVE) was the last ai bull that I felt was in a different league to most stock bulls yet he's rated poorly on icbf, but then again what do I and alot of other farmers know :rolleyes:

Madden171

kay 9 wrote: »

What's roundhill daras produce like? Many use him? We gave him to a few this year

Ive used him on heifers good bull easy calved, did well for me

deerejohn

I ai for a guy that calves 70 cows per year , calves for 3 months, 1 empty last year. Avg sale price of calves this year 1013 Euro, gets on very well, but is farming full time.

simx

deerejohn wrote: »

I ai for a guy that calves 70 cows per year , calves for 3 months, 1 empty last year. Avg sale price of calves this year 1013 Euro, gets on very well, but is farming full time.

What age does he sell at?

deerejohn

simx wrote: »

What age does he sell at?

8 to 10 months as they come up to suitable weight.

dohc turbo2

Going by the replys here I'm going to go for a 5star Charlois bull next year as most of my cattle are lmx , at the moment I'm relying an the father to look after things as work so busy and if it like this next year the farm would suffer and I'd miss the heats . Pic below is one of my first calfs . Thanks for all replys

Future Farmer

dohc turbo2 wrote: »

Going by the replys here I'm going to go for a 5star Charlois bull next year as most of my cattle are lmx , at the moment I'm relying an the father to look after things as work so busy and if it like this next year the farm would suffer and I'd miss the heats . Pic below is one of my first calfs . Thanks for all replys

Buyer beware:

Make sure he is 5 Star Replacement ACROSS breeds they are out there.

Look for CH sired by: Vittoz, TZW, VMO, TZL, SNZ, S2015, CKH...