Condition in contract for site purchase - help!

FiOT

Hi there,

I hope this is in the right place.

Just a quick question that I hope someone can shed some light on.

We have signed the contract for a site we wish to purchase having been granted planning permission on the site recently (purchase subject to planning).
The contract has gone back to the vendors solicitor who has now contacted ours to say the vendor wants to put in another condition to state that we may never object to any future developments on any of his remaining land.
I don't feel comfortable with this condition in the contract but was wondering is it a typical one in site purchase contracts?
My parents are saying don't accept it, solicitor is saying we may lose the site if we don't and were stuck in limbo not knowing what to do!

Advice welcome!!

bmm

Probably difficult to enforce a condition like this , under duress and all that .

Angry bird

No way mate, option to purchase subject to planning is standard, this is completely unreasonable. There are far worse 'neighbours' than a house for planning, for instance grain drying store.

FiOT

Thanks guys.

I am thinking the exact same thing. We wouldn't have a problem with houses beside us as we're a young couple in an old neighbourhood but like you said, he could build anything!

We'll keep fighting it, we said we would allow in the contract that we wouldn't object to "a similar dwelling house" but he wouldn't agree so that makes me nervous!

Angry bird

They are getting handsomely rewarded for just owning a plot, if that's not good enough for them, then you walk. If they want an agreement that's worded to your satisfaction, well then the price has to drop accordingly.

FiOT

We're definitely developing that attitude as he's pushed us (and won) on everything so far!

Angry bird

Good luck with it and I hope you have good solicitors.

koriko

FiOT wrote: »

We're definitely developing that attitude as he's pushed us (and won) on everything so far!

I find it interesting that he waited until ye guys were approved planning to tell ye he wanted to add to the conditions- almost like he knew ye would agree as ye were over the hurdle of planning and are now clearly excited at the prospect of building a home. I'd stand my ground with him and say no- call his bluff and say ye'll pull out- like u said anything could pop up beside ye. sites are not selling easily easily due to the fact that it's so hard to get planning- that certainly is worth bearing in mind and goes in your favour in this case as he might not sell that site too easily again.....

Strolling Bones

The permision attaches to the site

Not the applicant

Angry bird

Strolling Bones wrote: »

The permision attaches to the site

Not the applicant

So a bank will give a mortgage to someone on that site even though it's not their name on the planning? I don't think so plus the matter of architects copyright.

Markcheese

If the owner sprung this on ye after ye'd contracted to buy (subject to planning) can you threaten to walk and threaten to sue for costs incurred ? Ask your solicitor if they reckon it's worth while -
we had a delay in the purchase of house (bank dragging their heels for no reason except they were gagging for their Xmas holidays) a very shirty phonecall from our solicitor freed things up very quickly -

FiOT

Thanks for all of the replies guys. We're definitely going to stand our ground on this one. I'm very suspicious of his future plans and I want to protect us as much as possible as previous experience has tainted our view of everything he does.

Our solicitor is great but his are so old school, they've actually said to my solicitor that their "client is volatile", imagine your own solicitor saying that about you - yikes!

Anyway, I'm rambling. Thanks for all the advice, nice to know we're right in standing up for ourselves!

Calahonda52

Lets get a bit of perspective here
What makes you think that your objection to say the abattoir or whatever would make a blind bit of difference.

Also anyone can object to a development and they can always quote the terms of your contract.

The issue here is what might he build so how is the adjoining land zoned?
Whats in the local development plan?
Is the land services for sewage etc?
Any new roads planned for the area?

Is the location solid granite, so good for nuke waste storage.

Lastly, was any money paid when you signed the contract?
Offer, acceptance consideration....?

Strolling Bones

Angry bird wrote: »

So a bank will give a mortgage to someone on that site even though it's not their name on the planning? I don't think so plus the matter of architects copyright.

Sites are sold with planning permission and people borrow from banks to purchase them. The develepor and applicant do not have to be the same person. The OP cannot take this permision with them to another site. The vendor keeps the site with it's permsion if the sale falls through.

Don't understand your comment about architects copyright. That may only arise tenuously if the OP tries to use the exact same design on another site.

The OP hopefully has a good soloictor in posesion of a good contract for sale to enforce. And then hope not to be stuck with a spiteful neighbour in due course.

FiOT

We understand that if this was to fall through we would have to apply again on another site, at times it nearly feels like the preferred option when things are getting on top of me! Our solicitor is very good and I have every faith in them so hopefully things will move on soon enough, we're reluctant to move onto the next step before this gets sorted out.

With regards to a spiteful neighbour, well... Kill them with kindness I say

Strolling Bones

I really hope it all comes together for you FiOT

FiOT

Thanks so much again guys, will let you all know how it pans out.

Bonzo Delaney

You could play him at his own game between yourself and your solicitor see how it's worded to see if there's a loop hole of sorts. As in could a family member object if there was good reason to. Or under the grounds that what ever was applied for wouldnt decrease/ undermine the value of your home/ investment. Just my two cents. Good luck with the build.

Bonzo Delaney

Anyway if you object with good reason isn't the identity of the objectors withheld

Strolling Bones

No

893bet

Is a condition like that actually enforceable?

Is the planning/site purchase in both of your names or a single name (might be able to work around it that way?)

Strolling Bones

Eureka. Anyone can object to any development anywhere in Ireland. So agree the stupid condition of sale and when or if the time comes ask your entire family to object.

Drift

Totally unenforceable - in my opinion.

a. How is the clause worded?
b. Who exactly can and cannot object? As mentioned above - anyone, anywhere in the world, can object or submit an observation to a planning* [..... see note below]
c. Also when an application is with the Local Authority all you do is submit an observation - an objection is submitted to ABP after planning is granted.
d. What is the "penalty" if you do object? Someone familiar with the law might know if he can take you to court for breach of contract and if successful what exactly he might "get" from you.

* There is two potential flies in the ointment:
i. There is a specific clause in the planning laws that allows an adjoining landowner to object to a planning permission even if they didn't submit an observation to the local authority. This could be affected.
ii. There could be a bias amongst planners to treat observations from neighbours with a higher degree of respect than those of "randomers."

P.S. - I do see the landowner's point of view in this. The last thing he wants to do is invite in "troublemakers" to the neighbourhood which not only could affect his pocket in the long run but might make for a less than harmonious future. There are "serial objectors" out there who, once installed in a locality, believe that no-one else should be there.

FiOT

It seems to me like there surely would be a loophole but we'll go through the wording of the condition with a fine tooth comb before we allow it. We just have to be sure it's right as we have already signed the contract so once we allow it, he can put it in unilaterally.

I don't doubt that the fact he owns the land helped us to get our planning. (He's a member of that family in the town that own everything - you know yourself). This is another reason why it worries me so much, he really possibly could get planning for just about anything where another person wouldn't have a hope.

It's been a long old road so far and he hasn't made it easy from the start which is tainting our view of what he might do in the future too. I just have to hope he's actually a nice little man outside of money transactions!

Drift

Sorry - I forgot to add what was going to be my main point to my previous post!!!! ....

In very technical legalise speak - Tell your solicitor to tell his solictor to F*ck Off. No way a condition like that should be on a sale even if it is unenforceable.

mickdw

Am I missing something or did you not have signed contracts agreeing to buy subject to planning.
There should be penalty in the case of either party backing out imo.
If he is altering the wording of the agreement at this stage, you must be free to walk away and have deposit returned etc.
Your contract should have included that you would be compensated should the vendor pull the plug or alter the conditions For no valid reason after you invested pp costs.

DOCARCH

If it were me, I'd sign contracts in one name only. Then my OH would be free to make 'observations' freely to any future planning applications/developments that the land owner may propose. Or...if you have kids (no matter what age they are) nothing stopping them making 'observations'.

If you are already committed to signing in both names, as the vendor is being a bit of a bo***x throwing this in at the last minute, I would suggest that the compromise be the addition of the word 'reasonable' (development) to the clause...leaves it open to interpretation as what is reasonable.

In any event, as stated above, I think the clause may possibly be unenforceable?

FiOT

We didn't have the contract before applying for planning, we paid a deposit to the estate agent prior to application. (I know you are all probably cringing here but we really were clueless at the time - have become a lot more "educated" since.)

We have already signed the contract, as drawn up by his solicitor, in both names. We thought we were home and dry, silly us. We have tried to include "similar" in the contract but he point blank refused. He wants us to all out rescind our right to object.

We've given him no reason to think us awkward or that we would object so he's just playing sillybuggers now. I plan to get a really loud dog when the build is finished.

DOCARCH

The other thing to bear in mind is that there are lots of developments that get planning permission despite there being multiple objections...and...there are lots of developments that are refused planning permission where there are no objections.

Being able (having the right) to object does not mean it will not happen!

FiOT

Absolutely, well aware of that. I'm in Meath which I hear is notorious for those interesting decisions!

DOCARCH

FiOT wrote: »

We have already signed the contract...as drawn up by his solicitor...

As Ross O'Carroll Kelly would say...I'd tell them to FRO!

I would have thought you are home and dry? What does your solicitor have to say?

galwaytt

If you've signed contracts already, and this wasn't in it - then he's asking to renegotiate the contract. Ask him how he'll make it worth your while........€€

Besids, he doesn't have the right to force you to not object, irrespective of what you sign now. Planning law allows people to object, simples.

And the objectors don't have to be you, your spouse, or even live within 100 miles of the place. So what he's asking you to sign is nonsense and unenforceable - so sign away imho.

And, bear in mind, on the other side, if it comes to pass someone wants to build something - that doesn't mean you may not disagree. Nor does it mean that if you disagree, and object, that your objection would carry weight in the Co Co's decision process on the matter anyway.........

.....I'd haggle for a 'consideration', sign, and get on with your build.

FiOT

I have dreams about telling him to do just that Docarch! But unfortunately can't just at the moment...

Solicitor is pretty fed up with the whole thing and can't understand that from one side I'm getting phone calls from the estate agent accusing me of stalling (hilarious, we've had the money in our account for 2 months) and the other side letters from solicitors with conditions coming out the wazoo that were never there first day. Not a lot of communication on his side and everyone seeing dancing euro signs.

We have gone back and said we won't allow it now but I know what the reply is going to be again and another week wasted. I think if/when it comes back again we will sign and get our solicitor to write to his stating factually something to the effect that the condition was not an element of the contract when we signed it and that it was unilaterally entered into the contract after we had signed. At least it's on record that we were in effect forced to allow it??

We wait and see I guess.

DOCARCH

Maybe you should post similar in the Legal Discussion forum and see what the response is? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=633

It just seems odd to me...as far as I would be concerned, the vendor missed the boat when 'they' issued the contract and you signed it.

DOCARCH

We will follow with interest http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057491309

FiOT

LOL!

I'm off to the self build show for the weekend, thinking happy thoughts.

Thanks!

Barely There

893bet wrote: »

Is a condition like that actually enforceable?

Not a hope.

You can't sign away your statutory right to object to future developments.

FiOT

Hi All,

Many thanks for all of the advice over the past few days. We decided that it just wouldn't sit well with us to have the condition in our contract whether it was enforceable or not so we got our solicitor to send a letter saying that we would not allow any further changes to the contract.

Today we heard..... HE'S SIGNED IT!! We're so happy, over the moon to finally own our little piece of land and can now move on with our build. One little victory for now

Thanks again to everyone, your advice gave us the confidence to stand up for ourselves!

DOCARCH

Congratulations! Well done!

mickdw

Always best to stand up to bullies.

Angry bird

Best of luck with it.

893bet

Well done! A positive boards story.

FiOT

And now to make friends with him as he's my next door neighbour - Lord Above.

Well, just for the rest of his life. :P

Drift

Chances are you'll never need to object FiOT but it's great that you don't have some ridiculuos half arsed legal sentence sitting there looking at you if you ever need to chase up a planning issue.

db

Great news. Good luck with the build.

koriko

Happy nest building- good outcome!