shop refusing to sell alcohol to somebody who has another person without id

lifeandtimes

Hi

Iv seen a few posts on facebook about this but have no experienced it myself.

Apparently a well known retailer has a policy were if someone is buying alcohol who has id to prove they are of ahe and has another person with them who is considered possibly to be a minor (someone under 18) and does not have id to prove otherwise the shop will refuse the sale of alcohol to the patron on the assumption that they may be purchasing it for the other person/minor.

No surely this can be right? I mean what about a mother going shopping and purchasing wine would she be allowed to be refused as her children would be under age or what about a scenario where a person is alone buying alcohol but happens to start chatting to someone across the check out desk would they be allowed ask the other person for id and the rightly refuse the sale if not produced

Does anyone have any insight to this or thoughts? I understand all shops have a right to refuse service but with this bad press surely they wouldn't be so over the top strict and assume everyone is buying alcohol for a minor

Paulw

They have no obligation to sell you alcohol at all. So, yes, they can refuse to sell you alcohol.

Zambia

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Hi

Iv seen a few posts on facebook about this but have no experienced it myself.

Apparently a well known retailer has a policy were if someone is buying alcohol who has id to prove they are of ahe and has another person with them who is considered possibly to be a minor (someone under 18) and does not have id to prove otherwise the shop will refuse the sale of alcohol to the patron on the assumption that they may be purchasing it for the other person/minor.

No surely this can be right? I mean what about a mother going shopping and purchasing wine would she be allowed to be refused as her children would be under age or what about a scenario where a person is alone buying alcohol but happens to start chatting to someone across the check out desk would they be allowed ask the other person for id and the rightly refuse the sale if not produced

Does anyone have any insight to this or thoughts? I understand all shops have a right to refuse service but with this bad press surely they wouldn't be so over the top strict and assume everyone is buying alcohol for a minor

Seems fair enough.
Each event would have to be assessed on a case by case basis.
I doubt a mother or father would be refused.

collie0708

I don't think the retailer is worried about the "bad press" you refer to for being strict on alcohol sales would be far more damaging for them if they were found selling drink to a minor.

SteM

What bad press? I've seen this before in Lidl and don't have a problem with it.

I think both of your scenarios are at the complete opposite end of the spectrum to when it's actually happening. They're trying to stop the scenario where an 18 yo buys cheap drink for their 16 yo mate who's with them.

Nothing to stop the 18 yo going somewhere else.

lifeandtimes

collie0708 wrote: »

I don't think the retailer is worried about the "bad press" you refer to for being strict on alcohol sales would be far more damaging for them if they were found selling drink to a minor.

But the point in making is if I was in this shop with my friend,I was purchasing the alcohol and had my id, my friend who is not purchasing alcohol and is of the same age example 26 is asked to produce id and fails I am then refused sale,it's just seems a bit much to me

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

That's Tesco. They tried that on me once, I had a trolley full with a week's worth of groceries along with 4 cans of beer and a bottle of wine. I was giving a football teammate a lift and they wanted to see his ID. He didn't have any so the cashier wanted to take out the alcohol, and I could pay for the rest. I refused the offer so she got the manager.

The manager said it was their policy to ask for ID from both persons and funnily enough, I asked what you've just said, that if a mother was shopping with her kids would she be refused service of alcohol.

I didn't get a straight answer, so I told them it was fine, and I left everything on the conveyor belt on a busy saturday afternoon and took my business elsewhere.

collie0708

lifeandtimes wrote: »

But the point in making is if I was in this shop with my friend,I was purchasing the alcohol and had my id, my friend who is not purchasing alcohol and is of the same age example 26 is asked to produce id and fails I am then refused sale,it's just seems a bit much to me

I disagree I worked in retail and the number of idiots trying to by loads of drink for people who are underage is crazy as well the cashier can lose their job and be prosecuted should they sell drink to a minor

SteM

lifeandtimes wrote: »

But the point in making is if I was in this shop with my friend,I was purchasing the alcohol and had my id, my friend who is not purchasing alcohol and is of the same age example 26 is asked to produce id and fails I am then refused sale,it's just seems a bit much to me

If your 26 year old mate looks young enough to need ID then yes, but come on how often will that happen? Rarely.

lifeandtimes

SteM wrote: »

If your 26 year old mate looks young enough to need ID then yes, but come on how often will that happen? Rarely.

Rarely maybe but still a bit much,say you're at a party and there was miscalculated amount of drink and you run the shop with someone else and then this happens, it inconvenient yes but also annoying

Ken.

Someone brings you to the off licence. Just as you get out you say to the person "hey, you got I.D. with you". They say "no". You say "you wait there they might not serve us". Simple

SteM

lifeandtimes wrote: »

Rarely maybe but still a bit much,say you're at a party and there was miscalculated amount of drink and you run the shop with someone else and then this happens, it inconvenient yes but also annoying

Run to a different shop? Send someone else from the party to the shop instead? Play charades instead?

RainyDay

Paulw wrote: »

They have no obligation to sell you alcohol at all. So, yes, they can refuse to sell you alcohol.

If they are discriminating against people based on age of companion, they are almost certainly in breach of equality legislation.

collie0708

RainyDay wrote: »

If they are discriminating against people based on age of companion, they are almost certainly in breach of equality legislation.

I would love to see someone try and take that argument to court.... how hard is it to bring ID to a shop if you are with friends who look very young don't walk up to the point of payment with them standing next to you. simple

Paulw

RainyDay wrote: »

If they are discriminating against people based on age of companion, they are almost certainly in breach of equality legislation.

Actually, the law specifically discriminates against people, on the basis of age, from buying alcohol.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

RainyDay

Paulw wrote: »

Actually, the law specifically discriminates against people, on the basis of age, from buying alcohol.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

Yes, and it also outlaws discrimination based on age. And there is no rule about one law trumping the other. So while discrimination against purchasers of alcohol based on age is permitted, discrimination against companions of purchasers of alcohol is not permitted.

lifeandtimes

Ok well then say a mother is buying alcohol with her weekly shop with her 16 year old son,should the shop refuse her on these grounds?

Paddytheman

It comes down to there being a perceived risk that the alcohol could be for another party present who cannot prove that they are of legal age, a mother and 12 year old daughter is highly unlikely.

Previously I have refused to sell to a 30 year old accompanied by his younger brother without ID who said his mother was in the van outside, he left and a middle aged lady entered to purchase the exact same order of alcohol and I refused her on the grounds that I perceived there to be a risk the alcohol was for the minor in question, an argument ensued and eventually the law arrived and escorted the lady from the premises.

In all cases the staff are obliged to refuse if they think it could be for a minor and it's their decision to make.

RainyDay

Paddytheman wrote: »

In all cases the staff are obliged to refuse if they think it could be for a minor and it's their decision to make.

It's very unusual for law to give absolute discretion to anyone. Normally the law includes terms like 'reasonable suspicion'. Where exactly in law does it give this discretion to staff?

Paddytheman

You say reasonable suspicion, I say perceived risk.....

3DataModem

RainyDay wrote: »

If they are discriminating against people based on age of companion, they are almost certainly in breach of equality legislation.

No. You can discriminate based on age for some things. Eg the age you sell alcohol to people.

3DataModem

RainyDay wrote: »

It's very unusual for law to give absolute discretion to anyone. Normally the law includes terms like 'reasonable suspicion'. Where exactly in law does it give this discretion to staff?

The point is the establishment has the right to protect itself. There's no black and white rule here, the rule just has to be reasonable.

Paulw

RainyDay wrote: »

Yes, and it also outlaws discrimination based on age. And there is no rule about one law trumping the other. So while discrimination against purchasers of alcohol based on age is permitted, discrimination against companions of purchasers of alcohol is not permitted.

Do you have any caselaw on this to cite, which says that discrimination against companions of purchasers of alcohol is not permitted?

Until such time, companies will and should take all reasonable care and refuse to sell alcohol in certain circumstances, such as this one.

Peregrinus

Except there is no discrimination against the companion - he is not being refused service, or treated in other ways less favourably, etc, etc. He's got no cause of action.

The treatment being complained about is the refusal to sell alcohol, and the person complaining about that is the person who wanted to buy it - the adult. They have been discrminated against than another adult who came in unaccompanied, but "on the grounds of who you hang around with " is not one of the protected grounds.

If an adult accompanied by their child was refused service, they might frame this as discrimination on the grounds of family status. But presumably that's not the case in this instance.

irish_dave_83

I have never come across this, probably cause I have never really been in the situation. If this has happened its ridiculous. I mean if I was buying a case of beer or something and my younger brother happened to be with me, and I was refused based on how the person on the checkout judges me; I would be furious.

Surely if you were going to buy alcohol for minor(which I never have) you would tell the minor to stay outside they shop anyway, I mean who would be stupid enough to try and raise the suspicion anyway by bring them in.

L1011

I had this in Aldi (the other person in question was 31, and I did have ID on me despite not being particular young).

Aldi HQ's response when I queried them about this was to insist that "Challenge 25 is the law" from their UK based customer care team. When I pointed out that we're not in Scotland (I believe it is the law there - its not in England & Wales though) I got a gibberish response - clearly some team lead had had to hack the references to "its the law" out of their form reply and didn't know how to replace them. No confirmation of whether they'd refuse to serve a parent with a child.

Both the local management and the customer service team were clearly unwilling to say "its company policy" in case it pisses off a customer; but the lying and evasion by all of them pissed me off rather a lot more.

keyboard_cat

Zambia wrote:

Seems fair enough.
Each event would have to be assessed on a case by case basis.
I doubt a mother or father would be refused.

Was in dunnes stores with my mother a good few years back when I was 17 and she was buying a bottle of wine along with a weeks worth of shopping with my two younger siblings and the person at the counter refused to sell us the wine as I had no ID We ended up leaving all the shopping on the conveyor belt and went to tesco. Silly policy unless someone is 18-20 and surrounded by a gang of people who are underage.

cruizer101

SteM wrote: »

If your 26 year old mate looks young enough to need ID then yes, but come on how often will that happen? Rarely.

To be fair more often than you would think, Lidl, Aldi and I think Tesco have polices if you look under 25 ask for ID. So young looking people in their late 20's can easily get asked.

Wabbit Ears

Leaving shopping on a conveyor and walking away is a scummy thing to do. Twice in this thread people have said they have done it. Queuing in Supermarkets is bad enough without someone screwing it up for everyone by acting like a child and throwing a temper tantrum and storming off leaving everyone else to pick up after them,

anvilfour

Paulw wrote: »

Actually, the law specifically discriminates against people, on the basis of age, from buying alcohol.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

I think you're right Paul, so long as the policy applies fairly to everyone who appears to be under 18 regardless of race, sex etc. then I don't think it's in breach of the law.

L1011

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Leaving shopping on a conveyor and walking away is a scummy thing to do. Twice in this thread people have said they have done it. Queuing in Supermarkets is bad enough without someone screwing it up for everyone by acting like a child and throwing a temper tantrum and storming off leaving everyone else to pick up after them,

What else are you expecting people to do - put it all back themselves? There's many reasons you may be unwilling or even unable to complete the shop if part of it is being refused.

anvilfour

Meanwhile all the people wanting to buy booze for minors can just ask them to wait outside... :-D

Dial Hard

L1011 wrote:

Both the local management and the customer service team were clearly unwilling to say "its company policy" in case it pisses off a customer; but the lying and evasion by all of them pissed me off rather a lot more.

Challenge 25 isn't the law in Ireland but it is part of the Responsible Retailing of Alcohol in Ireland policy, which practically every drinks retailer in Ireland is signed up to. They take it *extremely* seriously because the fear is that, if the voluntary code isn't seen to work, the government will bring in legislation which is likely to be far more onerous.

There's very little point in calling for a manager if you're refused sale for having someone with no ID in tow; most retailers specifically instruct management to back up staff in these scenarios. All you can really do is take your business elsewhere.

L1011

Dial Hard wrote: »

Challenge 25 isn't the law in Ireland but it is part of the Responsible Retailing of Alcohol in Ireland policy, which practically every drinks retailer in Ireland is signed up to. They take it *extremely* seriously because the fear is that, if the voluntary code isn't seen to work, the government will bring in legislation which is likely to be far more onerous.

There's very little point in calling for a manager if you're refused sale for having someone with no ID in tow; most retailers specifically instruct management to back up staff in these scenarios. All you can really do is take your business elsewhere.

They could tell their staff to say that, rather than to lie through their teeth though.

The UK-based customer services staff at least have the excuse that they deal with UK stores a lot more than Irish ones and are, I believe, actually *in* Scotland.

ComfortKid

I encountered this in Aldi years ago. My 70year old grandfather brought me with him to help him carry the 10 or 15 bottles of wine he was buying. Because I put the bottles on the belt, he was refused even though it was obviously for him, he was paying with his card. I was 19 at the time but didn't have any iD with me.

goldenhoarde

You see it every weekend night the amount of young ones outside the shops asking "will ya get us some drink?". The shops are the ones who will lose out if the drink is for a minor. Better to be safe than sorry and most of the shops have signs saying id will be asked for and refused if not.

When there are 2 in the queue the assumption is that the purchase is for use by both so id is needed from both parties.

People take it as an affront but reality the staff are following store policy which is there to protect both sides.

The easy way out is if you don't have ID don't go in as a group.

Remember what's obvious to you may not be so obvious to a third party!

L1011

goldenhoarde wrote: »

You see it every weekend night the amount of young ones outside the shops asking "will ya get us some drink?". The shops are the ones who will lose out if the drink is for a minor. Better to be safe than sorry and most of the shops have signs saying id will be asked for and refused if not.

And those young ones don't go in with the person they've asked to get drink.

There's a massive logical disconnect in the arse covering that goes on. It does absolutely nothing to stop alcohol being bought for minors.

Lying about store policy being the law just makes the entire thing an even bigger mess.

irish_dave_83

goldenhoarde wrote: »

When there are 2 in the queue the assumption is that the purchase is for use by both so id is needed from both parties.

People take it as an affront but reality the staff are following store policy which is there to protect both sides.

Remember what's obvious to you may not be so obvious to a third party!

I understand that this would be the situation in a pub, if you order two drinks, it is accepted that both people should be ID'd. But that is because they would be drinking on the premises. It is very different in a shop/supermarket, I just think that it is wrong that you cannot buy alcohol if you happen to be with someone who looks young and doesn't have ID or doesn't have it on them, even though you would have yours. Store Policy or not, they have invited you to buy the alcohol, you want to buy it, then they renege on the offer?

I know there are situation where it is obvious, and I'm fine with that, but I imagine they get it wrong quite a bit.

Dial Hard

L1011 wrote: »

Lying about store policy being the law just makes the entire thing an even bigger mess.

I highly doubt they were actively lying to you, rather the person on the phone just wasn't familiar with the law in Ireland.

Either way, you seem to be taking it awfully personally. Yeah, it's an inconvenience when it happens, but in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing. As I said, vote with your wallet.

Wabbit Ears

L1011 wrote: »

What else are you expecting people to do - put it all back themselves? There's many reasons you may be unwilling or even unable to complete the shop if part of it is being refused.

WTF? Just finish paying for everything else you were going to buy less the alcohol. Why would not getting your precious drink stop you buying the rest of your stuff?

keyboard_cat

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

WTF? Just finish paying for everything else you were going to buy less the alcohol. Why would not getting your precious drink stop you buying the rest of your stuff?

Because why would i want to support a shop with daft policy's that don't allow a parent with a child to buy alcohol?

L1011

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

WTF? Just finish paying for everything else you were going to buy less the alcohol. Why would not getting your precious drink stop you buying the rest of your stuff?

You may only be buying drink

You may have a voucher that only kicks in at a certain value

You may have an objection to supporting retailers that lie to you

and so on.

If the store is going to impose a policy that may prevent people from finishing their transactions, they can deal with the consequences.

efb

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

That's Tesco. They tried that on me once, I had a trolley full with a week's worth of groceries along with 4 cans of beer and a bottle of wine. I was giving a football teammate a lift and they wanted to see his ID. He didn't have any so the cashier wanted to take out the alcohol, and I could pay for the rest. I refused the offer so she got the manager.

The manager said it was their policy to ask for ID from both persons and funnily enough, I asked what you've just said, that if a mother was shopping with her kids would she be refused service of alcohol.

I didn't get a straight answer, so I told them it was fine, and I left everything on the conveyor belt on a busy saturday afternoon and took my business elsewhere.

Why would you give a teammate a lift if you had to do a full grocery shop??? And why would they go shopping with u?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

L1011

Dial Hard wrote: »

I highly doubt they were actively lying to you, rather the person on the phone just wasn't familiar with the law in Ireland.

Either way, you seem to be taking it awfully personally. Yeah, it's an inconvenience when it happens, but in the grand scheme of things, it's nothing. As I said, vote with your wallet.

The staff in the shop should know Irish law. I already said the UK support staff had some reason not to know; but a duty manager has presumably worked in Ireland for quite some time.

Darren 83

I've worked in one of the major off license in Ireland, As mentioned they are not obliged to sell anything to you.

I had customer come in and I refused sale no I'd then his dad came in to buy the drink I refused him as well got swore at and every name under the sun. He wanted the manager who backed me up,

also that week a big supermarket got closed because of selling drink to a minior . while it might be a incovience to the customer, if a shop gets closed staff lose there wages and the person will get a criminal conviction, its nothing personal.

CliCliW

I've had friends boast about it before, going into Lidl one day to buy drink (one was 18 the other was not), and they assumed that by the 18 year old buying the alcohol they would be ok. They were refused so they left, and then the older one came back in and bought it anyway (I think going to a different clerk I'm not sure).

It's a tough grounds on who to refuse and who not. Underage drinking is illegal though, if a shop refuses to sell to someone who they think is enabling a minor I say fair dues to them, and I don't think it's wrong that they cover their ass.

Ken.

Darren 83 wrote: »

I've worked in one of the major off license in Ireland, As mentioned they are not obliged to sell anything to you.

I had customer come in and I refused sale no I'd then his dad came in to buy the drink I refused him as well got swore at and every name under the sun. He wanted the manager who backed me up,

also that week a big supermarket got closed because of selling drink to a minior . while it might be a incovience to the customer, if a shop gets closed staff lose there wages and the person will get a criminal conviction, its nothing personal.

You're wrong on one thing. If a shop is ordered to close they have to pay the staff as if they were working.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2003/act/31/section/9/enacted/en/html

(10) No employee who is working in the premises to which a temporary closure order applies shall be disadvantaged in his or her employment by reason of the order during the period of closure under it.

MarkAnthony

I see the functioning alcoholics are out again.

The majority of petty crime is alcohol related. Next time your wing mirror is on the ground remember how much giving out you did about some lad in Tesco/Lidl/Aldi asking you/your underage looking companion for some ID.

Let's just kick off the Garda age card being the only defence set out on the off-licence legislation right here and how it's unfair to tourists from Kazakhstan.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Little CuChulainn

L1011 wrote: »

You may only be buying drink

You may have a voucher that only kicks in at a certain value

You may have an objection to supporting retailers that lie to you

and so on.

If the store is going to impose a policy that may prevent people from finishing their transactions, they can deal with the consequences.

That's clutching at straws. Where is the actively lying to you in the scenario? And what kind of voucher only kicks in at a certain value and is useable in other shops? You're picking unrealistic situations to excuse dickish behaviour. Fair enough if drink is your only purchase and they refuse you then they will put it back but dumping your stuff and walking out is simply throwing the toys out of the pram because you can't get a bit of booze.