Match Thread: England V Ireland [2.30PM | 05/09/15 | Twickenham | Sky Sports 1]

Ireland V England
The Cabbage War

Depending on who you talk to, much or indeed very little is at stake in this final warm up game for both sides in the worlds largest dedicated rugby union arena, Twickenham Stadium.

Before being acquired by the RFU, the grounds where Twickenham is built was in fact a lowly cabbage patch, and yet from such humble beginnings this hallowed ground will soon host the final of the Rugby World Cup.

A US journalist once coined the phrase "the cabbage is a familiar kitchen-garden vegetable about as large and wise as a man's head" and one wonders in the battle of wits between Lancaster and Schmidt who will come out the victor and who the cabbage.

The Stakes

Many potential selections, counter selections, omissions and inclusions (even from outside the 31) have been touted this week highlighting the difference in opinion as to what this test constitutes. A weak team and it's purely a warm up, a full strength team and it's a marker and a must win.

To my mind this is very much more a "must win" for England than it is for Ireland, a fact to which George Forde alluded to in a post match interview following their defeat to France. England are starting to look a little fragile and with the pool they are facing into they are going to want to lay down some marker as Wales and Australia are arguably showing better form.

For Ireland I think Joe will very much be targeting a win here, but a close loss wouldn't raise much concern. The sentiment before the Wales game was "good performance, no injuries" and I think same rules apply here.

Either way, both sides have named close to full strength teams so it should be a cracking game with the potential to hit test level intensity.

The teams

Ireland England
15 Simon Zebo Mike Brown
14 Tommy Bowe Anthony Watson
13 Jared Payne Jonathan Joseph
12 Robbie Henshaw Brad Barritt
11 Dave Kearney Johnny May
10 Jonathan Sexton George Ford
9 Conor Murray Ben Youngs
1 Jack McGrath Joe Marler
2 Rory Best Tom Youngs
3 Mike Ross Dan Cole
4 Devin Toner Courtney Lawes
5 Paul O'Connell Geoff Parling
6 Peter O'Mahony Tom Wood
7 Sean O'Brien Chris Robshaw
8 Jamie Heaslip Ben Morgan

16 Richardt Strauss Jamie George
17 Tadgh Furlong Mako Vunipola
18 Nathan White Kieran Brookes
19 Donnacha Ryan Joe Launchbury
20 Chris Henry Billy Vunipola
21 Eoin Reddan Richard Wigglesworth
22 Ian Madigan Owen Farrell
23 Darren Cave Sam Burges


Head 2 Head | The Forwards

Dylan Hartley is the only liability player missing from the front row that faced Ireland during the 6N. Our Scrum was very solid that day and I think Dylan Hartley technically is a better scrummager than Youngs. I still think we will gain just about parity with the English but Young's could potentially be a liability for England at the line out.

A note on McGrath - this could be a further game in what is going to be a very tough couple of weeks for the young prop, hope he goes well and stays healthy.

In the row, England have the athletic (and in my opinion cynical) Lawes and Parling against the Irish captain Paul O'Connell and Devon Toner. O'Connell needs a big game after being fairly anonymous last week and Toner is no doubt feeling a little pressure after Henderson's and Ryan's performances of late. Hopefully the pairing will be able to do a number on the English line out similar to France and Toner will help counter any English attacking Mauls as is his forte.

Back Row battle has got to be fierce this week. England seem happy to keep Vunipola on the bench who could cause us headaches in the last 20, but to my mind we are putting out our strongest 6,7,8. O'Mahony needs a performance here and hopefully this will be a game where SOB can show where his form and fitness is at. The English back row has been absolutely slated since the France game, so I expect them to play with massive urgency and intensity.

Head 2 Head | The Backs

In the half backs, Young's looks sharp as ever, but Forde had a complete mare against France with several big mistakes compounded by a lot of overall poor decision making. Murray and Sexton didn't fare much better against Wales so this is an important warm up for all players involved. Reddan is actually looking our sharpest and most composed half back which is reassuring.

The much discussed English center partnership sees Barritt and Joseph paired in what is a creative and attacking line up that could cause us problems. Despite our lack of attacking threat through 12 / 13, we have looked defensively superb here and Henshaw whilst not yet world class has certainly got a world class attitude and work rate. Payne has shown a capacity to link up nicely with Sexton and distribute effectively and I think this in an area we will see improve a lot in the coming months.

The back three is interesting and I think the inclusion of Zebo at 15 is shrewd. He has obviously now taken the backup 15 mantle from Jones (a mantle that could actually see him play less first 15 rugby for Ireland) and this will be a huge test for him.

Kearney and Bowe on the wings should see us defensively solid against the pacey May and the ever present counter attacking threat of Brown. I'm still not convinced by Watson who to my mind mixes the hot with the cold. With the wingers we've selected we won't be running in tries by passing along to the wings and stepping around defenders but expect plenty of cross field kicking as both Kearney and Bow have significant advantage over their counterparts in this area.

The Bench

England to my mind have a stronger bench. They've more impact and experience coming on at LH and TH and we've a 1 cap LH convert covering there which we could be badly exposed by. Vunipola will be a weapon for them off the bench where as Henry has the opposite skill set and is much more comfortable in defense and breakdown.

Cave and Burgess should be interesting. Burgess is a massive unit that tackles hard when he remembers to wrap and is a great carrier through traffic but I think he could also be a massive liability against a technically excellent team like Ireland. Will be good to see how Cave goes if he comes on with Murray / Sexton still dictating play.

Final thoughts

I think England will want this more and with home advantage I think it's theirs by a score (5 - 7) at most.

Countering this however, I actually think we have a better team currently than England and one area where there is a huge difference between the squads is Leadership. I think a score advantage to us of 6 - 9 points in the first half could see the English panic and maybe even rile the home crowd a bit and I'd say that's what we are aiming for. Ireland on the other hand have 5 - 6 players spread between forwards and backs who could captain the team on their day and this is part of the reason why we have become a composed team that is hard to beat.

Otherwise we should look a little sharper this week but I don't think either Joe or Stuart will be "showing their hand" with nothing but pride and cabbages riding on the result.

awec

Thon's a funny looking cabbage.

thomond2006

A lot of pashun in that writeup.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

A lot of pashun in that writeup.

Fixed

.

scott1974

awec wrote: »

Thon's a funny looking cabbage.

I think it's Pak Choi... nice in a stir-fry..:)

rrpc

awec wrote: »

Thon's a funny looking cabbage.

Looks like a Cos lettuce to me

This would be a cabbage


Good write up otherwise, but if you can't tell your lettuces from your cabbages, how can we take you seriously at all Venjur? :pac:

rrpc

rrpc wrote: »

Looks like a Cos lettuce to me

This would be a cabbage

Good write up otherwise, but if you can't tell your lettuces from your cabbages, how can we take you seriously at all Venjur? :pac:

Very prejudicial, some cabbages just look different, doesn't make it any less a cabbage'y. Anyway, it had to be the same shape as a trophy and I just took googles word for it.

Picky off topic so and so's.

Sangre

Would like a big performance from POM. I don't think it has been vintage calendar year for him (although he never plays badly).

irishbucsfan

6/10 for the table

Flipper22

Top five players I'm worried about getting injured:
1 Sexton
2 Murray
3 O'Connell
4 SOB
5 Jack McGrath

smiley_face

Great opening post, fair play.
Could we add a poll for win draw or lose similar to the Wales match thread poll?

smiley_face

smiley_face wrote: »

Great opening post, fair play.
Could we add a poll for win draw or lose similar to the Wales match thread poll?

poll added.

RoundBox11

I'm also hoping for a big performance from POM. I feel sometimes he can go missing against the tougher teams so im hoping he proves me wrong and has a stormer. Id particularly like to see a high tackle count from him.

BoardsMember

We need a bigger 6 in my opinion, particularly in light of the size of the rest of the back row. With Ruddock out, the only option is Henderson, unless we play Henry and SOB together? I'm hoping that either POM hits some serious form, or that change is made for the bigger matches. I just dont think POM is big enough, nobody can doubt his effort and pashun though...

Sangre

RoundBox11 wrote: »

I'm also hoping for a big performance from POM. I feel sometimes he can go missing against the tougher teams so im hoping he proves me wrong and has a stormer. Id particularly like to see a high tackle count from him.

He seems to struggle more with big physical teams (like England). He isn't the biggest international 6 around.

wp_rathead

Fun fact:
Cabbage drawing is very competitive between Anime Artists

kuang1

Agree on the comments about POM. But I think same applies to Bowe.

Now would be the time Tommy!

Edit: good job Venjur!

smiley_face

BoardsMember wrote: »

We need a bigger 6 in my opinion, particularly in light of the size of the rest of the back row. With Ruddock out, the only option is Henderson, unless we play Henry and SOB together? I'm hoping that either POM hits some serious form, or that change is made for the bigger matches. I just dont think POM is big enough, nobody can doubt his effort and pashun though...

Chris Henry, Rhys Ruddock, and Sean O'Brien, and Jordi Murphy are all the same size as Peter O'Mahony, give or take a few pounds or an inch or so. Henderson is much bigger though at 6' 6'' and over 18 stone.
6' 3'' and 17 stone is plenty big enough to play 6 if you have the work rate to back it up IMO.
Dan Lydiate is a world class 6, he's 6' 4'' and 17.6 stone, not that much of a difference.

It's not a size issue with POM and he's actually very athletic. He is also technically excellent at the breakdown. If there is any deficiency it's power but I've no evidence of this, just concluding that as against teams with large powerful packs his impact diminishes.

The reality is though, that his athleticism and technical quality allows him to dominate against some teams and these performances are usually memorable but not repeatable against every team and there is nothing wrong with this, he's still always very good. When he dominates one week and does nothing flashy the following week he is "off form" when the reality is that he's just neutralised a little bit.

If you take a player like Seaon O'Brien, he has world class attributes which means he can pretty much dominate any opposition on his day.

I also wonder if POM has ever fully recovered from his shoulder injury.

BoardsMember

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not a size issue with POM and he's actually very athletic. He is also technically excellent at the breakdown. If there is any deficiency it's power but I've no evidence of this, just concluding that as against teams with large powerful packs his impact diminishes.

The reality is though, that his athleticism and technical quality allows him to dominate against some teams and these performances are usually memorable but not repeatable against every team and there is nothing wrong with this, he's still always very good. When he dominates one week and does nothing flashy the following week he is "off form" when the reality is that he's just neutralised a little bit.

If you take a player like Seaon O'Brien, he has world class attributes which means he can pretty much dominate any opposition on his day.

I also wonder if POM has ever fully recovered from his shoulder injury.

I think that makes sense, and maybe articulates a bit better what I was trying to or felt about it. Whatever about size, when Ruddock played the autumn internationals in 2014 he was a beast in a way that I have never seen POM be.

smiley_face

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not a size issue with POM and he's actually very athletic. He is also technically excellent at the breakdown. If there is any deficiency it's power but I've no evidence of this, just concluding that as against teams with large powerful packs his impact diminishes.

The reality is though, that his athleticism and technical quality allows him to dominate against some teams and these performances are usually memorable but not repeatable against every team and there is nothing wrong with this, he's still always very good. When he dominates one week and does nothing flashy the following week he is "off form" when the reality is that he's just neutralised a little bit.

If you take a player like Seaon O'Brien, he has world class attributes which means he can pretty much dominate any opposition on his day.

I also wonder if POM has ever fully recovered from his shoulder injury.

I don't know if he disappears/diminishes against big opposition, I think he's fared well against the top teams, and often gets a good mention by commentators.
He sometimes has a quiet game, but often the pundits doing the analysis will surprise me by throwing out stats about tackles and turnovers that meant he was reasonably effective.
I think he's a tough player that we need, but probably only an average ball-carrier.
I'd like to see a back row of 6 Henderson, 7 Sean O'Brien, 8 Heaslip, with Peter O'Mahony on the bench, but as we are using Henderson in the 2nd Row at the moment we're not likely to see that combination.
So, the current combination, plus either Henry or Murphy on the bench is the best we've got in terms of power.
I was surprised Robbie Diack was left out, as he's a big guy, but I'm guessing Joe Schmidt is going for the better technical players.

vienne86

Great write up OP! Really looking forward to this match, but kinda worried about injuries. Hope we get good performances from our first choice combinations.

RoundBox11

smiley_face wrote: »

Chris Henry, Rhys Ruddock, and Sean O'Brien, and Jordi Murphy are all the same size as Peter O'Mahony, give or take a few pounds or an inch or so. Henderson is much bigger though at 6' 6'' and over 18 stone.
6' 3'' and 17 stone is plenty big enough to play 6 if you have the work rate to back it up IMO.
Dan Lydiate is a world class 6, he's 6' 4'' and 17.6 stone, not that much of a difference.

You dont need stats to see that Ruddock and Lydiate are both considerably bigger than POM. And O'Brien is hovering around 18 stone now.

Its all irrelevant however because bigger doesn't always mean better at 6. Guys like Kaino, Dusatoir etc aren't huge. Its POMs tackle count that id be concerned with.

POM is a great flanker though and im sure he'll have a great world cup. I just want to see him have a big game on Saturday so that we can see him stand up against a big physical pack.

On a side note, im more than a bit worried seeing Courtney Lawes starting. I think its an injury waiting to happen.

irishbucsfan

RoundBox11 wrote: »

You dont need stats to see that Ruddock and Lydiate are both considerably bigger than POM. And O'Brien is hovering around 18 stone now.

Its all irrelevant however because bigger doesn't always mean better at 6. Guys like Kaino, Dusatoir etc aren't huge. Its POMs tackle count that id be concerned with.

POM is a great flanker though and im sure he'll have a great world cup. I just want to see him have a big game on Saturday so that we can see him stand up against a big physical pack.

On a side note, im more than a bit worried seeing Courtney Lawes starting. I think its an injury waiting to happen.

Jerome Kaino is pretty huge and Dusautoir didn't play blindside as much as the number on the back of his shirt would suggest. Just thought I'd be pedantic.

pickarooney

What exactly happens if McGrath picks up an injury that will keep him out for two weeks? Cut him and bring in the next loosehead or go with Healy + Furlong until he gets back?

RoundBox11

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jerome Kaino is pretty huge and Dusautoir didn't play blindside as much as the number on the back of his shirt would suggest. Just thought I'd be pedantic.

just looked at kaino again now... I never realised he was that big .

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

What exactly happens if McGrath picks up an injury that will keep him out for two weeks? Cut him and bring in the next loosehead or go with Healy + Furlong until he gets back?

Kilcoyne is probably close enough that we could consider cutting him but honestly it would be a real shame if we did and then Healy didn't make it. May be more likely that they'd cut Healy and trust McGrath and Kilcoyne for the tournament.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kilcoyne is probably close enough that we could consider cutting him but honestly it would be a real shame if we did and then Healy didn't make it. May be more likely that they'd cut Healy and trust McGrath and Kilcoyne for the tournament.

I actually think Kilcoyne is further away from the squad than people think. I was listening to the down the blindside podcast and they were pointing out the penalties Kilcoyne has been giving away (not just in the scrum) and the points resulting from them as something that would rule him out in Joe's book.

smiley_face

RoundBox11 wrote: »

just looked at kaino again now... I never realised he was that big .

The IRFU has Sean O'Brien as 6' 2'' and 16 stone 12 lbs,
but Peter O'Mahony at 6' 3'' and 17 stone.
Don't know what source you have that says Sean'O Brien is hovering around 18 stone??

Also Rhys Ruddock is also 6' 3'' and 17 stone 6 lbs. 6 lbs more than Peter O'Mahony is not considerably bigger IMO.

Utah_Saint

smiley_face wrote: »

The IRFU has Sean O'Brien as 6' 2'' and 16 stone 12 lbs,
but Peter O'Mahony at 6' 3'' and 17 stone.
Don't know what source you have that says Sean'O Brien is hovering around 18 stone??

Also Rhys Ruddock is also 6' 3'' and 17 stone 6 lbs. 6 lbs more than Peter O'Mahony is not considerably bigger IMO.

I think O'Mahony has the appearance of someone who is quite 'Wirey'....Lanky not that powerful but the stats clearly state otherwise.

I think some players are naturally more powerful than others of a similar size. Henderson and Ferris are two players who spring to mind.

smiley_face

Utah_Saint wrote: »

I think O'Mahony has the appearance of someone who is quite 'Wirey'....Lanky not that powerful but the stats clearly state otherwise.

I think some players are naturally more powerful than others of a similar size. Henderson and Ferris are two players who spring to mind.

Yes and no, Ferris was big enough, 6' 4'' and 17.5 stone, but he did a lot of high intensity weights and power lifting so he didn't bulk up too much yet had amazing power even for a man of that size.
Henderson is considerably bigger though, 6' 6'' and the IRFU have him now at 19 stone.
That is a tremendous size for a young man, and if he could play at 6 for Ireland I've no doubt he would hold his own or better any other 6 in the world for power.
I agree that height and weight don't always tell the true power.
I think Peter O'Mahony could develop his ball-carrying for the future though, but to date his trademark has been getting stuck into rucks and tackling, so I think that's what Joe Schmidt is looking for from him. Would be great to have it all, but he's the best we have at the moment so I wouldn't complain about him.
Ruddock might have more power, but he's out with injury anyway.

Edit: By the way, read recently that Ruddock won't play tonight against Edinburgh, but is close to making a return to the Leinster team, so if any of our 5 back rows get injured in a few weeks time, he could be closer to selection than Jack Conan by that time. Hope he comes back in good form.

Quin_Dub

smiley_face wrote: »

Yes and no, Ferris was big enough, 6' 4'' and 17.5 stone, but he did a lot of high intensity weights and power lifting so he didn't bulk up too much yet had amazing power even for a man of that size.
Henderson is considerably bigger though, 6' 6'' and the IRFU have him now at 19 stone.
That is a tremendous size for a young man, and if he could play at 6 for Ireland I've no doubt he would hold his own or better any other 6 in the world for power.
I agree that height and weight don't always tell the true power.
I think Peter O'Mahony could develop his ball-carrying for the future though, but to date his trademark has been getting stuck into rucks and tackling, so I think that's what Joe Schmidt is looking for from him. Would be great to have it all, but he's the best we have at the moment so I wouldn't complain about him.
Ruddock might have more power, but he's out with injury anyway.

That's actually the big issue with POM as a 6 - He doesn't tackle to anything like the numbers of other 6's..

He's typically in the mid single digits (He had 5 in the last game - Compared to Lydiate who had 23 ) so depending on the mix of other players in the back-row that low count can become an issue..

He's a great player, no question.. It's just that he's not a high volume tackler so the balance of other players when he's playing is important..

Your back-row combined need to be making ~30 tackles , with POM playing that means the other 2 are looking at making 12/13 each... If they do , we will do well... If they don't , different story (Heaslip and Murphy made 19 between them vs. Wales)

smiley_face

Quin_Dub wrote: »

That's actually the big issue with POM as a 6 - He doesn't tackle to anything like the numbers of other 6's..

He's typically in the mid single digits (He had 5 in the last game - Compared to Lydiate who had 23 ) so depending on the mix of other players in the back-row that low count can become an issue..

He's a great player, no question.. It's just that he's not a high volume tackler so the balance of other players when he's playing is important..

Your back-row combined need to be making ~30 tackles , with POM playing that means the other 2 are looking at making 12/13 each... If they do , we will do well... If they don't , different story (Heaslip and Murphy made 19 between them vs. Wales)

OK, didn't realise his tackling was that low, is that a trend or just one match do you know?
Is there a good statistics resource that you use to find out tackles made etc? I don't know any good ones. Cheers

Quin_Dub

smiley_face wrote: »

OK, didn't realise his tackling was that low, is that a trend or just one match do you know?
Is there a good statistics resource that you use to find out tackles made etc? I don't know any good ones. Cheers

From a quick look he's only had 2 games in the last 10 or 12 where he's made double digits..

Have a look here

Shows all his games for Ireland , with match stats for each game..

smiley_face

Quin_Dub wrote: »

From a quick look he's only had 2 games in the last 10 or 12 where he's made double digits..

Have a look here

Shows all his games for Ireland , with match stats for each game..

Thanks for that resource.
I just checked the recent matches; South Africa, Australia, 6 Nations, Wales 1st warm-up.
Peter O'Mahony has been averaging about 9 tackles over that time. He had a massive tackle count of 17 against Australia though to bring up the average.
Heaslip, O'Brien, Ruddock, Murphy, O'Donnell all have a slightly higher average, around 10 or 11. Henderson only came on as a sub at 6 in one match so couldn't compare much with him.
Three other stats I noticed over those matches, POM is used a lot to good effect in the lineouts, but he also had a noticeably higher penalty conceded count than any of the others, and he has the best turnover count of all of them (though he played the most minutes of them all too).

RoundBox11

smiley_face wrote: »

The IRFU has Sean O'Brien as 6' 2'' and 16 stone 12 lbs,
but Peter O'Mahony at 6' 3'' and 17 stone.
Don't know what source you have that says Sean'O Brien is hovering around 18 stone??

Also Rhys Ruddock is also 6' 3'' and 17 stone 6 lbs. 6 lbs more than Peter O'Mahony is not considerably bigger IMO.

Well he was listed as being 16 st 12 lbs 3 years ago and since then he's put on a shed load of weight. I've even heard other players mention how much he's gained in the gym while he was out injured. Anyone with eyes can see he's considerably bigger than POM, as is Ruddock (Who is actually 6kg heavier than POM, not lbs as Ruddock is 111kg and POM is listen in some places as 105kg).

Anyway it's totally irrelevant. It's POM's tackle count that I've been talking about, i never said he was too small.

smiley_face

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Well he was listed as being 16 st 12 lbs 3 years ago and since then he's put on a shed load of weight. I've even heard other players mention how much he's gained in the gym while he was out injured. Anyone with eyes can see he's considerably bigger than POM, as is Ruddock (Who is actually 6kg heavier than POM, not lbs as Ruddock is 111kg and POM is listen in some places as 105kg).

Anyway it's totally irrelevant. It's POM's tackle count that I've been talking about, i never said he was too small.

Both the Ireland and Leinster rugby sites have Ruddock and Sean O'Brien in line with O'Mahony in terms of size and weight.
Maybe the two sources need updating then.
Anyway, his tackling is sometimes the best in the team and sometimes the worst, so I think a lot comes down to how much time he's spending in rucks and sharing out the tackling with the other back rowers.
He doesn't need a big tackle count if he has a different job to do.

RoundBox11

smiley_face wrote: »

Both the Ireland and Leinster rugby sites have Ruddock and Sean O'Brien in line with O'Mahony in terms of size and weight.
Maybe the two sources need updating then.
Anyway, his tackling is sometimes the best in the team and sometimes the worst, so I think a lot comes down to how much time he's spending in rucks and sharing out the tackling with the other back rowers.
He doesn't need a big tackle count if he has a different job to do.

If you want to look at it the old fashioned way a 6's primary job should be to tackle everything in sight and hit rucks and I dont think ive ever seen POM top the tackle count. The 7 can be the link man and compete for the ball on the deck and the 8 can carry ball. I know thats all purely hypothetical and in modern rugby different forwards take on different roles. But even still, if your 6 is only notching up 6 or 7 tackles per game while SOB and Heaslip are regularly getting in the teens, i think its time to ask questions.

pickarooney

Is it not mainly because POM is there to contest for the ball when the tackle is made? It's not like he's standing about on the wing or letting players past him for fun.

smiley_face

RoundBox11 wrote: »

If you want to look at it the old fashioned way a 6's primary job should be to tackle everything in sight and hit rucks and I dont think ive ever seen POM top the tackle count. The 7 can be the link man and compete for the ball on the deck and the 8 can carry ball. I know thats all purely hypothetical and in modern rugby different forwards take on different roles. But even still, if your 6 is only notching up 6 or 7 tackles per game while SOB and Heaslip are regularly getting in the teens, i think its time to ask questions.

FYI
Out of the Irish back row players he topped the tackle count with 17 against Australia in the last Autumn Internationals (next highest was 12) and 13 in the 6 Nations against Scotland (next highest was 9).

smiley_face

pickarooney wrote: »

Is it not mainly because POM is there to contest for the ball when the tackle is made? It's not like he's standing about on the wing or letting players past him for fun.

Yes, he doesn't tackle everything that moves, the open side will usually get more tackles in as they are more often in the loose, while the blind side covers the blind where the ball doesn't travel as often.

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

Is it not mainly because POM is there to contest for the ball when the tackle is made? It's not like he's standing about on the wing or letting players past him for fun.

It's exactly what it is. Standard roles don't exist in the back row any more and haven't for a long while.

irishbucsfan

smiley_face wrote: »

Yes, he doesn't tackle everything that moves, the open side will usually get more tackles in as they are more often in the loose, while the blind side covers the blind where the doesn't travel as often.

The blindside covers the blind for the first phase after a scrum, that's it. There's very little reason for them to be there in open play.

RoundBox11

smiley_face wrote: »

FYI
Out of the Irish back row players he topped the tackle count with 17 against Australia in the last Autumn Internationals (next highest was 12) and 13 in the 6 Nations against Scotland (next highest was 9).

Two games, very impressive.

Ceadog

People criticising POM for his low tackle account very obviously have no idea about backrow balance in the modern game and should be ignored.

smiley_face

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The blindside covers the blind for the first phase after a scrum, that's it. There's very little reason for them to be there in open play.

True but it might count for a difference of a few tackles per game, as often the Openside will trail the ball off first phase and make a tackle and when the blind side gets there he's scrapping for the ball in the deck.
Though in open play the roles are not necessarily what they traditionally used to be years ago.
What's more important though is how the 3 back rows agree to play, often one will be nominated to be the tackler while another will be the groundhog.
For example Dan Lydiate and Sam Warburton.

smiley_face

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Two games, very impressive.

From the South Africa match up to the 1st Wales warm-up match inclusive, 2 matches out of 8 he topped the tackle count in the back row, what's your issue with that?

The Pheasant2

smiley_face wrote: »

What's more important though is how the 3 back rows agree to play, often one will be nominated to be the tackler while another will be the groundhog.
For example Dan Lydiate and Sam Warburton.

Same goes for the Aussies with Hooper and Pokock at 6 & 7. Although they're both usually 7, Hooper plays more of 6ish game with high tackle counts and carrying. Whereas Pokock is your traditional pilferer and link player 7.

RoundBox11

Ceadog wrote: »

People criticising POM for his low tackle account very obviously have no idea about backrow balance in the modern game and should be ignored.

What utter tripe.

It doesn't take a genius to understand the balance of the Irish back row. He has a low tackle count for a flanker. Its not a case of backrow balance. Getting 4-6 tackles in a game is low for a blindside.

irishbucsfan

RoundBox11 wrote: »

What utter tripe.

It doesn't take a genius to understand the balance of the Irish back row. He has a low tackle count for a flanker. Its not a case of backrow balance. Getting 4-6 tackles in a game is low for a blindside.

There is no such thing as low for a blindside any more. This is like listening to people trying to explain how bad Jamie Heaslip is as a number 8 because he doesn't make a bunch of big runs and breaks in games.

mfceiling

So.......ireland v england...