Cars for towing caravans

Jesus.

I was in a camping site last week and I wandered around looking at the cars that people used to pull their caravans. It was a big site yet out of all the vehicles there were only two SUV/Pickups (a Ford Ranger and a Landcruiser). The rest were cars - mostly diesel. Insignias, Mondeos, 93's, 95's, Octy's, Superbs, Passats, Accords etc.

It got me thinking about a debate on here when a guy (Cinio!) was saying that there'd be no problem towing a caravan or a horsebox with a 1.4tsi Golf. If that's the case, why do most folk's towing vehicle of choice consist of 2 liter diesels?

(Mods PLEASE don't delete!)

colm_mcm

Mpg.
No point in towing a caravan if you have to spend too much travelling.

Jesus.

Good point Colm. But mechanically, would it be advisable to tow a one-tonne plus trailer behind you in a small displacement turbo petrol?

Odyssey 2005

It's all about stopping not towing.Most any car can tow but you need bulk and weight to stop a car ,family ,all the crap In the car and caravan/ horse box and the caravan/ horse box.
You don't nescessarily need a 4x4 but you dood need a bit of weight and cop on!

Irish Steve

At the risk of getting things thrown at me, it's NOT just about stopping, if a small trailer is put on the back of a small car, that's not a problem. Put a caravan (or a heavy trailer) on the back of a small car, and there can and will be problems in some situations. Not all roads are level, and if a small car pulling a caravan has to stop on a gradient, getting it going again can be a problem, and can also result in problems with other areas like the clutch. Even something like boarding a ferry with a caravan causes problems, as the ramps are steep, and there's no speed in reserve to help give it momentum to get up the slope, so it's down to brute power from the engine.

A long time ago, I had to bring a heavy 6 x 4 trailer to Ireland from the UK on the back of a Sunbeam, which was well able to tow at the then legal limit of 50 Mph, but once off the motorway, and into some of the more variable roads in North Wales, that was a different story, and on one hill it was down to 1st gear and struggling, due to the total weight of car and trailer. Caravans can also cause problems with the clutch on smaller engines, there's not the same contact area in the plate as there is on a larger engine, so it's a lot easier to overheat the clutch. Smaller wheels and tyres is also a factor with stopping large trailers or caravans, and believe me, overheated brakes are NOT fun, especially if they overheat before the bottom of the hill, happened to me once with a large trailer on the back, the trailer brakes failed, (broken brake rod) so the car brakes were having to do all the work, by the bottom of the hill, I was standing on the brake pedal, the pads were smoking seriously, and at the end of the hill, while it was down to less than walking speed, it wasn't going to stop. Had to reline the brakes and change the brake fluid to get them back to performance.

I've spent over 35 years towing with all manner of cars, and vans, and all sizes of trailers and caravans from tiny camping trailers up to tri Axle Transporters, and the simple conclusion is that a decent (over 2 litre) diesel or 6 (or more) cylinder long stroke petrol engine is going to be the best performing vehicle for serious towing. The best vehicle I had was a Triumph 2500 PI, (fuel injected), a long time ago, and it would tow just about anything anywhere, and stop it as well, even though it was a heavy car. Wouldn't do more than 17 Miles to the gallon when towing heavy loads, but they were over 2 tonne loads with the trailer and the vehicle on it, and it would cruise at a very good speed on quiet motorways. Small petrol engines don't have the torque to tow big loads, or the brakes to stop them. A heavy car also helps with damping out snaking issues that can be caused by things like a large van or artic passing at speed on a motorway, and in rare cases, the only way to stop a bad snake is to accelerate out of the snake movement, with a small light weight car, that may not be possible, and the result then can be that the van will take control, and end up overturning, and take the car with it . The end result is NOT a pretty sight, I've cleared up more than a few of these sorts of accidents in the UK before we moved over here.

jimgoose

The greatest vee-hee-cal ever for towing caravans is a 1976 Ford Granada Mk. I with 3l Essex V6. Accept no substitutes.

_Brian

I tow our caravan with a Nissan xtrail.
I've also towed it with a 1.6C4 GP Citroen. The Citroen would tow no problem, but doesn't stop it near as easily.

It's not just in Ireland either. I'm always surprised in France with the modest cars that many Europeans use, and they have a bigger caravan culture than we have.

The big bonus of the xtrail for me is it's weight. Only a few times in very heavy rain have I set it to 4wd auto.

Joe 90

Irish Steve wrote: »

At the risk of getting things thrown at me, it's NOT just about stopping, if a small trailer is put on the back of a small car, that's not a problem. Put a caravan (or a heavy trailer) on the back of a small car, and there can and will be problems in some situations. Not all roads are level, and if a small car pulling a caravan has to stop on a gradient, getting it going again can be a problem, and can also result in problems with other areas like the clutch. Even something like boarding a ferry with a caravan causes problems, as the ramps are steep, and there's no speed in reserve to help give it momentum to get up the slope, so it's down to brute power from the engine.

A long time ago, I had to bring a heavy 6 x 4 trailer to Ireland from the UK on the back of a Sunbeam, which was well able to tow at the then legal limit of 50 Mph, but once off the motorway, and into some of the more variable roads in North Wales, that was a different story, and on one hill it was down to 1st gear and struggling, due to the total weight of car and trailer. Caravans can also cause problems with the clutch on smaller engines, there's not the same contact area in the plate as there is on a larger engine, so it's a lot easier to overheat the clutch. Smaller wheels and tyres is also a factor with stopping large trailers or caravans, and believe me, overheated brakes are NOT fun, especially if they overheat before the bottom of the hill, happened to me once with a large trailer on the back, the trailer brakes failed, (broken brake rod) so the car brakes were having to do all the work, by the bottom of the hill, I was standing on the brake pedal, the pads were smoking seriously, and at the end of the hill, while it was down to less than walking speed, it wasn't going to stop. Had to reline the brakes and change the brake fluid to get them back to performance.

I've spent over 35 years towing with all manner of cars, and vans, and all sizes of trailers and caravans from tiny camping trailers up to tri Axle Transporters, and the simple conclusion is that a decent (over 2 litre) diesel or 6 (or more) cylinder long stroke petrol engine is going to be the best performing vehicle for serious towing. The best vehicle I had was a Triumph 2500 PI, (fuel injected), a long time ago, and it would tow just about anything anywhere, and stop it as well, even though it was a heavy car. Wouldn't do more than 17 Miles to the gallon when towing heavy loads, but they were over 2 tonne loads with the trailer and the vehicle on it, and it would cruise at a very good speed on quiet motorways. Small petrol engines don't have the torque to tow big loads, or the brakes to stop them. A heavy car also helps with damping out snaking issues that can be caused by things like a large van or artic passing at speed on a motorway, and in rare cases, the only way to stop a bad snake is to accelerate out of the snake movement, with a small light weight car, that may not be possible, and the result then can be that the van will take control, and end up overturning, and take the car with it . The end result is NOT a pretty sight, I've cleared up more than a few of these sorts of accidents in the UK before we moved over here.

Years ago I got pulled by a copper in England. He was driving one of those Triumphs and he reckoned that it was a lovely car but he was only getting about 12 mpg so your 17 when towing sounds brilliant.

slimjimmc

Irish Steve wrote: »

The best vehicle I had was a Triumph 2500 PI, (fuel injected), a long time ago, and it would tow just about anything anywhere, and stop it as well, even though it was a heavy car.

Things have moved on since 1977.
The 2500 PI MKII Estate weighed 1270kg, produced 124bhp and 153lb.ft.
Many smaller modern cars are just as heavy (eg Megane estate is 1210kg) and a relatively small 1.6 turbo-diesel such as the very popular PSA 1.6 HDI produces greater torque (159-198lb.ft) and power up to 117bhp.

I'd expect a modern 1.6 HDI to perform every bit as well as the 2.5Pl

Irish Steve

Well aware that things have moved on, the PI was slightly tweaked, the standard machine has a normal coil based ignition system with the standard points, I fitted it with a (then) new Electronic ignition system that made a huge difference to the performance, it meant that when the (primitive) fuel injection system threw massive quantities of fuel in to the beast, while it struggled to fire that much fuel with the normal spark, the extra power of the electronic ignition meant that it never missed a beat, it outperformed a Granada 3L that we had at the time, and was better than some Daimler 4.2 engines.

The best proof of that was Haldon Hill, near Exeter (which has an average gradient of 1 in 20 over a 4 km distance, and a maximum gradient of around 1 in 10), I had to tow on that on a regular basis, with a 4 wheel trailer weighing about 1 tonne, and the trailer was capable of carrying a twin wheel transit van, so the combined weight was well over 2 tons. The Triumph would climb that hill in second gear at around 4500 rpm doing over 50 Mph, the half shaft UJ joints didn't last long (6 months if I was lucky) with that power and load, and the fuel gauge used to quiver with the flow rate but I've not had an engine like it either before or since, and we had several V8 Rovers in the fleet at times, and they didn't perform as well as that Triumph did.

I think the advantage of the Triumph was that it had an overdrive box, so 4 speed box with overdrive on 3 & 4, which made it very good for changing up or down in a mode that was almost like an automatic, and it allowed the torque and performance to be spread across a wider performance band that the normal gearbox.

At the time there was very little that came close to the performance of that engine, and yes, it was nearly 40 years ago, things have indeed moved on, and I'd have been disappointed if they hadn't. That said, if I could find a Triumph in good condition, and they are now very rare, particularly that model, I'd be tempted, as long as I could register it accordingly, as it was a superb cruising machine on motorways, and comfortable with it.

Ahh memories. Time to get back to the thread subject.

JBokeh

Diesels with a VNT will tow caravans nicely, as they're producing a fair percentage of their peak torque at cruising RPM. Not terribly legal, but I find towing at 100k in a 2.0 TDI means you can pretty much leave it in top gear all the time, doing 80k makes you need to stir the gears a little bit as you start dropping speed on hills

You can tow with a 1.4 turbo petrol, but the peak power and torque will be so far up the rev range that it will make it really uneconomical, and it won't be a case of sitting there with it in gear, you'll have to plan ahead for hills and build up a bit of momentum and start going down through the gears to keep her in the right rev range

I towed a builders trailer of turf off the bog and maybe 15 miles home in a 1.4 octavia with a knackered exhaust, it sounded like a scene from mad max, and I was doing around 30km/h. The 30 mile round trip probably burnt a third of a tank. Did the same in a Pajero 3.2, loaded the bejesus out of the trailer, and the boot, drove the whole way home at 80km/h in 4th gear and barely used any fuel.

That being said, I also had a petrol land cruiser Prado, and that towed every bit as well as a turbo diesel, because it had twice the displacement, and burnt twice the amount of fuel

Mycroft H

A Diesel Citroen C5.

Excellent brakes, hypneumatic suspension (always level even loaded) and a decent bit of weight.


Took this years turf in it's stride.

Jesus.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Small petrol engines don't have the torque to tow big loads.

Despite your name, with such a detailed response regarding Caravanning, I knew you must be English :P

Regarding the torque, what if the little engine is turbo-charged?

Jesus.

jimgoose wrote: »

The greatest vee-hee-cal ever for towing caravans is a 1976 Ford Granada Mk. I with 3l Essex V6. Accept no substitutes.

Seen a black Granada Ute conversion earlier today. Not the first time I've seen it either

Jesus.

slimjimmc wrote: »

Things have moved on since 1977.
The 2500 PI MKII Estate weighed 1270kg, produced 124bhp and 153lb.ft.
Many smaller modern cars are just as heavy (eg Megane estate is 1210kg)

Megane estate wouldn't be any smaller than a Triumph 2000. Possibly even bigger

CJhaughey

Don't forget caravans are a lot bigger now than then in the 70's as well.

coylemj

Jesus. wrote: »

Regarding the torque, what if the little engine is turbo-charged?

A turbo will do wonders for a petrol car's acceleration (the '0-60' number) but the diesel will still have waaaaay more torque for pulling.

Jesus.

Coylemi, I'm getting a "gurgling" sound from the Air Con when I turn the engine off. Does this mean I need a refill?

_Brian

CJhaughey wrote: »

Don't forget caravans are a lot bigger now than then in the 70's as well.

Indeed.
Our 4 berth is 8m long and loaded is 1400kg.
There's a difference in towing something, and towing it in comfortably and safely.

Irish Steve

Jesus. wrote: »

Despite your name, with such a detailed response regarding Caravanning, I knew you must be English :P

Regarding the torque, what if the little engine is turbo-charged?

Guilty as charged, the handle goes back to the days when a forum I was in had 6 Steve's so I ended up being called Irish Steve, as that is where we're living now:)

The snag with any turbo charged engines is that you have to get the revs up and keep them there for the turbo to do it's thing, and in some circumstances, that can mean some nasty treatment of the clutch in order to do that, more so with petrol, as the power is usually at higher revs than a diesel.

If the road speed can't be built due to the traffic conditions, the lack of low end power with a heavy total load, and the clutch small, that can lead to some interesting smells and potential expense on replacing a burnt out clutch.

The classic is something like taking a heavy caravan on to the ferry, the ramps to the boat are steep, and tend to be slow going due to the queues on the boat, and then some of the internal ramps on the ship are even steeper, with no chance to take a run at them, and they're too narrow and tight to build speed up so that the clutch (even in first) is not slipping. With some advance thinking, the best plan is to wait at the bottom of the ramp until there's some clear space, but that needs some cop on from the driver, and also requires that the car behind doesn't then decide to jump the queue, followed by all the vehicles behind it.

There can be a very big gap between what's legal and what's comfortable.

A long time ago, I had to tow a mini digger on the back of a 1.8 Cavalier from South Dublin to Ashbourne, pre M50, and it was possible, but hairy, and I didn't do more than 50 Kph with it, because I didn't trust the brakes to be capable of stopping it from higher speeds, due to the total weight combination.

Even longer ago, in an emergency situation, (UK police request) we had to get a broken down concrete pump (27 Tonnes) off the hard shoulder of a very busy motorway, as it was night and the truck no longer had lights due to the battery dying. The only vehicle we had available at the time was a modified ex military short wheel base Land Rover that we'd put a V8 engine in to.

We stayed on the hard shoulder, with a blue and 2 escort behind us for safety, and got it off the road, but to say it was slow going would be putting it mildly, but we had the advantage of a low ratio box with a centre diff, so could use the power in all gears.

Times have changed, and a lot of what used to be possible is no longer legal, and rightly so, there were a lot of accidents due to inappropriate combinations of towing and towed vehicles in times now gone.

The most regular examples were light cars, towing heavy boats with heavy engines right at the back, so a massive pendulum effect if it did snake, and the owner would use the road trailer to launch and recover the boat during the holiday, and never give a thought to the effect of salt water on the wheel bearings. Most weeks in the summer, we'd be called out to recover a trailer that had shed a wheel due to the bearings seizing solid on the axle, which would tear the wheel off, usually breaking the stub axle, so putting a new wheel and bearings on at the site wasn't possible. If they were lucky, it was (just) controllable, but if they were not, it would be a major accident on the motorway, the worst cases resulting in both boat and car being flipped, depending on the speed at the time.

So yes towing caravans, or trailers, is something that needs some careful consideration if problems are to be avoided.

deandean

(When I have the time) I'd love to build a 'teardrop caravan', they look just georgeous. I'd say you'd pull one with a Smart Car, they-re quite light.

jimgoose

deandean wrote: »

(When I have the time) I'd love to build a 'teardrop caravan', they look just georgeous. I'd say you'd pull one with a Smart Car, they-re quite light....

I intend to get an artic one of the days, with an old refrigerated trailer to convert into half motorhome, half mobile garage. Looking forward to doing the Ring of Kerry in it. A Kenworth W900 with an Eaton Twin-Split 'box will do nicely. :cool:

Jesus.

Irish Steve wrote: »

Times have changed, and a lot of what used to be possible is no longer legal, and rightly so, there were a lot of accidents due to inappropriate combinations of towing and towed vehicles in times now gone.

That was a very good read Steve. I remember my father, uncles etc towing heavy stuff with the likes of Fiat Mirafiori's and it seemed like they managed okay back then but as you say, there would've been plenty of accidents that I wouldn't have been aware of back then.

That bit about the salt water and the boat trailer was a good one

jimgoose wrote: »

I intend to get an artic one of the days :cool:

I was looking over a '77 Kenworth the other day. A chap uses it for weddings. Great looking yoke. Not much room in the Cab compared to nowadays

macplaxton

CJhaughey wrote: »

Don't forget caravans are a lot bigger now than then in the 70's as well.

And they don't have the voice of Arthur Lowe either :pac:

barryfitz

This site will give a great indication of suitability of a rig.
http://whattowcar.com/

pick your car manufacturer
pick any caravan manufacturer - you get the models later (with their factory weights)
pick a car model
then you can tweak for loads, based on what you might add
et voila - you'll get a decent indication of what's suitable.

coylemj

Irish Steve wrote: »

Times have changed, and a lot of what used to be possible is no longer legal, and rightly so, there were a lot of accidents due to inappropriate combinations of towing and towed vehicles in times now gone.

+1 Here's one from 2003. Ignore the cyclists, just wait for the car to appear and watch what happens ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kl3ErZpjj8

obezyana

I know someone who pulls a caravan with a 1.2ltr petrol i can only imagine the fuel cost.

CiniO

obezyana wrote: »

I know someone who pulls a caravan with a 1.2ltr petrol i can only imagine the fuel cost.

I can't believe it could be so bad.
Just keep it between 5000 to 6000rpm and will be grand.

obezyana

CiniO wrote: »

I can't believe it could be so bad.
Just keep it between 5000 to 6000rpm and will be grand.

He did mention how scary it was driving the motorway on a windy day. He also told me it was heavy enough on the fuel when towing although he didn't say how much.

CiniO

obezyana wrote: »

He did mention how scary it was driving the motorway on a windy day. He also told me it was heavy enough on the fuel when towing although he didn't say how much.

Possibly the car wasn't designed to tow such heavy loads.
Most 1.2 would be small cars, with towing limit usually below 1000kg braked trailers.

obezyana

CiniO wrote: »

Possibly the car wasn't designed to tow such heavy loads.
Most 1.2 would be small cars, with towing limit usually below 1000kg braked trailers.

It is a 08 Seat Ibiza. I would not feel too confident in towing a caravan in it.

CiniO

obezyana wrote: »

It is a 08 Seat Ibiza. I would not feel too confident in towing a caravan in it.

Assuming it's older model car only weights 1015kg so too light to tow heavier trailer.

obezyana

CiniO wrote: »

Assuming it's older model car only weights 1015kg so too light to tow heavier trailer.

Yeah as I said I wouldnt risk it myself. I would of thought pulling a load like that would damage such a small engine maybe im wrong.

_Brian

If your facing into a 4/500 mile journey with a ton and a half caravan behind you as part of your holidays you need a decent tow vehicle.
You don't need to be pushing a car to the edge, hoping there is no wind or rain and bricking it for fear you get stopped on a hill.

The whattowcar website is very useful to get an appreciation for how an outfit will handle on the road.

For towing the caravan safely you need a vehicle that's a good bit heavier than the caravan with a good wheelbase for stability. Plenty of grunt so your not pushin up/down the gears at every change in incline.
I love to stick on the cruise control at about 90kms/hour and clock away the miles at leisure.

CiniO

obezyana wrote: »

Yeah as I said I wouldnt risk it myself. I would of thought pulling a load like that would damage such a small engine maybe im wrong.

Engine doesn't get damaged just like that.
There would be more strain obviously on it, and clutch could suffer, but if engine is driven at high revs, there should be no problem with power.
Just to watch it doesn't start overheating and if it does just slow down or stop to cool down.

obezyana

CiniO wrote: »

Engine doesn't get damaged just like that.
There would be more strain obviously on it, and clutch could suffer, but if engine is driven at high revs, there should be no problem with power.
Just to watch it doesn't start overheating and if it does just slow down or stop to cool down.

Well he has being towing the caravan for a few years now and everything is fine which I am surprised but hey if it keeps on going then why not. He keeps asking for my Xtrail when he is heading off but f*ck that it would be my luck he would end up in a ditch

Jesus.

CiniO wrote: »

I can't believe it could be so bad.
Just keep it between 5000 to 6000rpm and will be grand.

CiniO wrote: »

Possibly the car wasn't designed to tow such heavy loads.

That's a contradiction there Cinio.

This thread was started with you in mind. You'd probably think towing a double horse box would be grand with a Smart car!

obezyana

Jesus. wrote: »

That's a contradiction there Cinio.

This thread was started with you in mind. You'd probably think towing a double horse box would be grand with a Smart car!

So did you actually just start the thread so you could catch him out? Just curious is all.

CiniO

Jesus. wrote: »

That's a contradiction there Cinio.

This thread was started with you in mind. You'd probably think towing a double horse box would be grand with a Smart car!

Towing with a small engine is one thing.
Towing with a light car is another thing.
There's hardly any relation between them, except from the fact, that usually light cars have small engines.

My civic weights over 1400kg and according to manufacturer can tow 1500kg.
That's a 2.2 diesel 140bhp so shouldn't have any trouble towing.
But the same civic can come with 1.4 petrol 83BHP and if I'm right can also tow 1500kg.
That would be much harder on the engine, but I'm sure this 1.4 can do it.

Jesus.

CiniO wrote: »

But the same civic can come with 1.4 petrol 83BHP and if I'm right can also tow 1500kg.
That would be much harder on the engine, but I'm sure this 1.4 can do it

I doubt she'd be rated to tow 1.5 tonnes. How long before the clutch burns out?

mullingar

CiniO wrote: »

Towing with a small engine is one thing.
Towing with a light car is another thing.
There's hardly any relation between them, except from the fact, that usually light cars have small engines.

My civic weights over 1400kg and according to manufacturer can tow 1500kg.
That's a 2.2 diesel 140bhp so shouldn't have any trouble towing.
But the same civic can come with 1.4 petrol 83BHP and if I'm right can also tow 1500kg.
That would be much harder on the engine, but I'm sure this 1.4 can do it.

No.

The 06-11 shape civic 1.4 petrol can only tow 1200kg. link

Jesus.

obezyana wrote: »

So did you actually just start the thread so you could catch him out? Just curious is all.

Certainly not. Read the OP lad. I resurrected one of Cinio's threads about towing before but it was closed by the Mods for being a Zombie which was fair enough.

Cinio knows his stuff and I enjoy talking with him

obezyana

Jesus. wrote: »

Certainly not. Read the OP lad. I resurrected one of Cinio's threads about towing before but it was closed by the Mods for being a Zombie which was fair enough.

Cinio knows his stuff and I enjoy talking with him

Good stuff ah i read it alright was just curious is all when you said you had him un mind.

Jesus.

No worries mate