Dual Drivers licence holder and penalty points

Head_Hunter

If someone had a valid Irish drivers licence and foreign licence, is it a legal requirement to use the Irish licence if penalty points were ever earned?

Peregrinus

Head_Hunter wrote: »

If someone had a valid Irish drivers licence and foreign licence, is it a legal requirement to use the Irish licence if penalty points were ever earned?

Penalty points attach to the driver, not the licence; the licence is just a mechanism for tracking them. So whether you have an Irish licence, a foreign licence, both licences or no licence at all the effect of having penalty points awarded against you is exactly the same.

As to whether you could get away with concealing the fact that you had an Irish licence by simply producing a foreign licence and otherwise keeping schtumm, and whether this would be effective in "fooling" the system so that in a later incident, if you produced your Irish licence, the guards would be unaware that you already had points, I can't say.

aujopimur

Dual licences are illegal in ROI.

CiniO

aujopimur wrote: »

Dual licences are illegal in ROI.

Why do you think so?

CiniO

Peregrinus wrote: »

Penalty points attach to the driver, not the licence; the licence is just a mechanism for tracking them. So whether you have an Irish licence, a foreign licence, both licences or no licence at all the effect of having penalty points awarded against you is exactly the same. .

It's not. Only holders of Irish licence collect active penalty points (which can lead to disqualification).

Valetta

aujopimur wrote: »

Dual licences are illegal in ROI.

CiniO wrote: »

Why do you think so?

I would like to know the answer to this too.

I hold a UK and Irish driving license, having passed the test at different times in both juristictions.

CiniO

Valetta wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this too.

I hold a UK and Irish driving license, having passed the test at different times in both juristictions.

That's actually illegal. You can't hold 2 licences from two different EU states.
But apart from that, you can hold Irish licence and any other country which is not in the EU.

Valetta

CiniO wrote: »

That's actually illegal. You can't hold 2 licences from two different EU states.
But apart from that, you can hold Irish licence and any other country which is not in the EU.

Where does it say it's illegal?

I'm not saying it's not, but at no point in the process of me getting both licenses was it obvious that I was doing something wrong.

Graham

Haven't procedures recently changed to try and prevent dual-license points avoidance.

I understood foreign licenses presented for points were going to be cross-checked for corresponding Irish License.

I wonder if anyone attempting this is also opening themselves up to additional prosecution:

An Garda Síochána and the Courts Service are actively engaged in a process that will facilitate prosecution of those who fail to produce a driving licence or permit and the copy of a licence or permit before the Courts.

whomitconcerns

Its an EU Law
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/vehicles/driving/validity/faq/index_en.htm

Is it possible to have two driving licences issued by two different EU countries at the same time?
NO — nobody is allowed to hold more than one driving licence – not even if your driving licence has been withdrawn, you cannot be issued a second driving licence by another EU country.

Graham

Valetta wrote: »

Where does it say it's illegal?

I'm not saying it's not, but at no point in the process of me getting both licenses was it obvious that I was doing something wrong.

It's unusual for someone to pass the test in both jurisdictions. It's more common for a valid driving license from another EU country to be exchanged for an Irish License. During the exchange process, the initial license should be surrendered.

If you're permanently resident in Ireland, ask the DVLA (or whatever they're called this week) and they will advise that you're no longer entitled to a UK driving license.

Valetta

Graham wrote: »

It's unusual for someone to pass the test in both jurisdictions. It's more common for a valid driving license from another EU country to be exchanged for an Irish License. During the exchange process, the initial license should be surrendered.

If you're permanently resident in Ireland, ask the DVLA (or whatever they're called this week) and they will advise that you're no longer entitled to a UK driving license.

Will do.

I had a complicated set-up years ago, where I was driving Irish and UK vehicles in both countries, so I thought it would be easiest to get a UK license. At the time, there didn't seem to be anything wrong, but obviously either the laws have changes, or I slipped passed the regulations somehow.

Graham

Valetta wrote: »

Will do.

I had a complicated set-up years ago, where I was driving Irish and UK vehicles in both countries, so I thought it would be easiest to get a UK license. At the time, there didn't seem to be anything wrong, but obviously either the laws have changes, or I slipped passed the regulations somehow.

I only discovered this by accident myself when I asked DVLA if they could send a copy license to my Irish address. They suggested I apply for an Irish license based on my UK driving entitlements. Your situation is slightly different as you passed the test in both jurisdictions so you were never in the situation where you were asked to surrender a license but I suspect the outcome will be the same; only entitled to a license from the country of residence.

sunnysoutheast

CiniO wrote: »

It's not. Only holders of Irish licence collect active penalty points (which can lead to disqualification).

Sadly not.

I have a UK licence and received three points on my Irish "driving record" according to the RSA. These will expire after three years. If I get to 12 points I will be disqualified from driving in Ireland only.

"Where a driver has a foreign licence a record will be created and the penalty points recorded on that record."

Previously I believed that points would only be applied when the UK licence was exchanged for an Irish one but this appears to be incorrect.

The conviction and points are also disclosable for insurance purposes.

redfacedbear

Valetta wrote: »

At the time, there didn't seem to be anything wrong, but obviously either the laws have changes, or I slipped passed the regulations somehow.

The Irish Driving Licence application form used to ask if you had a licence from another country and (in theory) if you said yes to that the MTO should have insisted you surrender the UK licence before renewing the Irish one. In practice of course if you failed to answer the question, or lied, nobody would be any the wiser.

Head_Hunter

What's the situation if one EU licence and one non-EU licence is held?

CiniO

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Sadly not.

I have a UK licence and received three points on my Irish "driving record" according to the RSA. These will expire after three years. If I get to 12 points I will be disqualified from driving in Ireland only.

"Where a driver has a foreign licence a record will be created and the penalty points recorded on that record."

Previously I believed that points would only be applied when the UK licence was exchanged for an Irish one but this appears to be incorrect.

The conviction and points are also disclosable for insurance purposes.

That's all not true.
While there were talks about introducing mutual recognition of penalty points between Ireland and UK, nothing like that was introduced so far.
If you hold foreign licence, penalty points are added to the database (under your name), but are not active. No matter how many points you collect that way, you won't get disqualified. Those point also never expire. Also those points don't need to be disclosed to Insurance companies.
Only once you decide to swap your foreign licence to Irish licence, your points get activated.

Fred Swanson

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innocent_lover

What they will do if you have irish licence and international driving permit? Can you have points on international driving permit?

Graham

innocent_lover wrote: »

What they will do if you have irish licence and international driving permit? Can you have points on international driving permit?

I thought the IDP for EU citizens was only valid in non-EU countries.

slimjimmc

innocent_lover wrote: »

What they will do if you have irish licence and international driving permit? Can you have points on international driving permit?

An IDP is not a driving licence, is only valid when accompanied with your national licence and cannot be used in the country that issued it.

sunnysoutheast

CiniO wrote: »

That's all not true.
While there were talks about introducing mutual recognition of penalty points between Ireland and UK, nothing like that was introduced so far.
If you hold foreign licence, penalty points are added to the database (under your name), but are not active. No matter how many points you collect that way, you won't get disqualified. Those point also never expire. Also those points don't need to be disclosed to Insurance companies.
Only once you decide to swap your foreign licence to Irish licence, your points get activated.

According to the RSA website:
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/
the penalty points regime applies equally to Irish and foreign licences.

I got the RSA letter (to my UK address) informing me of three points only last week. I also checked with my insurers and they informed me it was a disclosable material fact.

The points are only relevant to driving (and insurance) in Ireland, however.

If you can provide a definitive link that supports your view I would be very interested. That is the way I used to think it worked.

CiniO

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

According to the RSA website:
http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/
the penalty points regime applies equally to Irish and foreign licences.

I got the RSA letter (to my UK address) informing me of three points only last week. I also checked with my insurers and they informed me it was a disclosable material fact.

The points are only relevant to driving (and insurance) in Ireland, however.

If you can provide a definitive link that supports your view I would be very interested. That is the way I used to think it worked.

I must admit I stand corrected.
What I wrote above used to be the case, but not any more.
After some browsing I found this:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0003/sec0008.html
which pretty much amends Act from 2002 changing definition of licence to include a foreign licence.

Your link from RSA obviously confirms this change, as well as info from citizens information

Do penalty points apply to all Irish driving licences?
Yes. Penalty points apply to both learner permits and full Irish driving licences. Penalty points also apply to drivers with foreign driving licences driving in Ireland. If someone is driving in Ireland on a foreign licence, a record is created for the purpose of recording penalty points. Where the driver accumulates 12 penalty points in a 3-year period they are disqualified from driving in Ireland.

Obviously then also that kind of points need to be declared to the insurer.

One thing though which seems strange for me is this: (quote from RSA)

The driver is required to surrender his/her Irish or foreign driving licence to the National Driver Licence Service within 10 days of disqualification

Considering that driving ban from accumulating 12 points can only apply in Ireland in case of foreign licence holder, I can't see how Irish authorities can be entitled to force people to surrender it to NDLS.
It is indeed worded like that in Road traffic Act I linked above, but that would be against European law and international treaties I'd think.

In the end if person is only to be disqualified in Ireland, how are they meant to drive abroad if they are foreced to surrender licence to NDLS?
I'd say this part is fictional regulation which can not be enforced.

Peregrinus

Yes, Ireland can force you to surrender your foreign licence to the Irish authorities. Why not? By coming into Ireland and driving on Irish roads you have subjected yourself to Irish law, and why should you be subject to any lesser penalties or restrictions than an Irish resident would be?

I am not aware of any treaties that says that a country cannot seize a driving licence issued by another country.

Irish law only disqualifies you from driving in Ireland, because the Oireachtas has no power to make laws about who shall drive on the roads in, say, Sweden; that's a matter for the Parliament of Sweden. So if your Swedish licence is confiscated in Ireland and you go back to Sweden and wish to drive there, I imagine you have to apply to the Swedish authorities to issue you with a replacement licence document, and explain to them the circumstances which led to the loss of the first document. It's then a matter for the Swedish authorities to decide, in the light of Swedish law, to decide whether your Irish ban is a bar to you driving in Sweden/them issuing you with a replacement licence document.

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Not that anyone on this forum would ever advocate unlawful activities, propose loopholes or suggest ways for people to avoid legal obligations.

Fred Swanson

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sunnysoutheast

CiniO wrote: »

I must admit I stand corrected.
What I wrote above used to be the case, but not any more.
After some browsing I found this:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2014/en/act/pub/0003/sec0008.html
which pretty much amends Act from 2002 changing definition of licence to include a foreign licence.

Your link from RSA obviously confirms this change, as well as info from citizens information



Obviously then also that kind of points need to be declared to the insurer.

One thing though which seems strange for me is this: (quote from RSA)


Considering that driving ban from accumulating 12 points can only apply in Ireland in case of foreign licence holder, I can't see how Irish authorities can be entitled to force people to surrender it to NDLS.
It is indeed worded like that in Road traffic Act I linked above, but that would be against European law and international treaties I'd think.

In the end if person is only to be disqualified in Ireland, how are they meant to drive abroad if they are foreced to surrender licence to NDLS?
I'd say this part is fictional regulation which can not be enforced.

Yes I thought it worked the way you originally described. It may have changed when the NDLS was set up, I don't know, but the insurance companies now have access to the national driver record which I am sure they will check in the case of any claim!

There was a thread on Motors a while back where someone exchanged their UK licence for an Irish one thinking they would have points activated but no, so the "shadow licence" may not have been consistently applied in the past.

Vologda69

One of the reasons for increased back office processing times with the new plastic card licences is that adequate checks on driver entitlements are now being carried out by NDLS. A driver who claims to have 'lost' a UK licence. He/she will need to produce a Paper Letter of Entitlement from DVLA. The DVLA is also contacted to confirm said details. If the driver is found to have a UK disqualification, NDLS will not exchange the licence. The same applies to licences from other jurisdictions - the onus is on the driver to prove that any disqualification has been lifted. The foreign licence number is recorded against penalty point files as a matter of course. Many insurance companies are either refusing to quote holders of non-irish licences or applying inflated premiums. So in many cases people are reluctantly exchanging rather than trying to hold two EU licences. Most EU countries contact the RSA as soon as an Irish licence holder exchanges their licence abroad. The customer file is updated and NDLS will not replace the Irish licence (lost or otherwise) until the driver hands over the EU licence the details of which will be on record.

Fred Swanson

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acme4242

Bit unfair to Irish Citizens that are living abroad in certain countries, e.g. China. Other EU countries, e.g. Sweden allow their citizens renew their driving license when living in China, they are actually delivered via the Swedish Embassy. While using an international drivers permit is one Irish solution, but if you don't get to renew your Irish Driving license within 10 years, its gone, and you would need to start again with L plates. Also, you can't swap them either way. China don't recognise Irish Driving Licenses Ireland don't recognise Chinese Driving Licenses

Fred Swanson

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blackis200

Graham wrote: »

Haven't procedures recently changed to try and prevent dual-license points avoidance.

I understood foreign licenses presented for points were going to be cross-checked for corresponding Irish License.

I wonder if anyone attempting this is also opening themselves up to additional prosecution:

I was in court and had 2 licences with me.
My solicitor said: they can't put points on my non Irish licence and it was up to me to decide which licence I wished to produce.
I got no points!

crossmolinalad

Valetta wrote: »

I would like to know the answer to this too.

I hold a UK and Irish driving license, having passed the test at different times in both juristictions.

They told me I had a Dutch one and must take an Irish one
I had to give them the Dutch one otherwise I could not get the Irish one
same with passports
Its not allowed to have two of them from different countries

blackis200

crossmolinalad wrote: »

They told me I had a Dutch one and must take an Irish one
I had to give them the Dutch one otherwise I could not get the Irish one
same with passports
Its not allowed to have two of them from different countries

I have both an Irish and a foreign passport.
My brother had 3 passports.
The Irish licensing authority can't ban you from having a foreign licence. Only the foreign country can revoke it.

GM228

crossmolinalad wrote: »

I had to give them the Dutch one otherwise I could not get the Irish one
same with passports

There is no such restriction with passports, people with dual citizenship can have one for each nationality.

GM228

blackis200 wrote: »

I have both an Irish and a foreign passport.
My brother had 3 passports.
The Irish licensing authority can't ban you from having a foreign licence. Only the foreign country can revoke it.

They can, by law you must surrender your current EU licence to get an Irish licence (exchange or otherwise) which is then returned to the issuing country.

Discodog

Even if you don't get points you still have to declare any convictions to your insurer & they will ask what penalty was imposed.

hognef

GM228 wrote: »

There is no such restriction with passports, people with dual citizenship can have one for each nationality.

Indeed, but several countries don't allow dual citizenships, which means having to give up one passport in order to gain a new one.

Fred Swanson

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hognef

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Ireland or any EU state do not care. Most of the others just refuse to recognise a 2nd passport. China is a good example.

It is not as simple as that. Clearly, the Netherlands, an EU country, does care. Austria appears to be another one that cares.

Fred Swanson

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hognef

Fred Swanson wrote: »

All Austria or the Netherlands will do is refuse to recognise a second passport. So you will always be Dutch/Austrian no matter how many passports you have.

Are you absolutely sure?

https://www.bmeia.gv.at/en/embassy/consulate-general-new-york/practical-advice/austrian-citizenship.html

"An Austrian citizen applying for foreign citizenship will automatically lose his/her Austrian citizenship upon obtaining foreign citizenship. Minor children born in wedlock usually also lose their Austrian citizenship (because of their parents' losing theirs)."

"In general, the Austrian Nationality Act does not allow dual citizenship except for persons who obtain two citizenships at the time they were born (e.g. a person born to Austrians living in the US acquires both Austrian and US citizenships at the time of birth)."

Peregrinus

Pretty well all countries refuse to recognise dual citizenship in the sense that if you are, e.g., an Irish citizen it makes absolutely no difference whether you do or do not hold the citizenship of one or more other countries. The Irish government will treat all Irish citizens the same, and you won't get any extra concession or special treatment because you are also a citizen of France/the UK/Austria/wherever. Equality before the law, and all that.

In addition, some countries refuse to allow dual citizenship, or allow it only in limited circumstances. In practice, this plays out in various ways, but a common one is a rule that says that, if you voluntarily acquire the citizenship of another country, you lose your citizenship of birth. Austria has such a rule, obviously, but Ireland does not.

scatlover

So when England leaves the European Union it will be okay to hold both U.K. and Irish licences will it?

Under His Eye

Who knows.