Transport Solutions for Ireland

Stephen15 · 23-08-2015 4:04pm #1

Heres a few simple enough transport solutions for Ireland. Firstly I would completely wind up the CIE group. I get started on bus operations I would break up Bus Eireann into different local and municpal bus operations each county would have its own bus company backed by the county council which would greatly improve rural transport. Bus Eireann's intercity is not needed as it is runs almost parallel to the railway network does CIE feel the to have its buses compete againsit its trains its like if Apple brought out two different Iphones to compete agansit one another. Services from Dublin from places like Donegal could be replaced by bus services to Sligo where you could transfer to a train and private operators. As for commuter services from places like Meath, Wicklow or Kildare they'd replaced by a outer suburban service by Dublin Bus also the new regional operators could tender out the bus services with the permisson of the NTA including Dublin Bus who would now be a separate enity from CIE.
That brings to my next point Irish Rail I would all they're current Inter City services but in the Dublin Area with Dart and Commuter services which should all be electrified expanding the Dart network I would put out a tender for a private company to run them as a joint venture with Irish Rail my proposed electrified network would stretch as far north as Drogheda as far south as Greystones as it currently is and as far west as Newbridge which will connected from Connolly via the Phoenix Park Tunnel and Maynooth the new company would be simply branded as Dart. Lines will also be renarranged to allow for double decker trains. An example of this model of privatisation is the Milan Suburban Network which is operated by Trenord a joint venture between Trenitalia (state railways) and LeNord a local private train operator.
Lastly the Luas as it is a great system will be left as it is. Thoughts.

Jamie2k9 · 23-08-2015 5:05pm

Firstly I would completely wind up the CIE group.

Agree all should be made independent companies

Bus Eireann's intercity is not needed as it is runs almost parallel to the railway network does CIE feel the to have its buses compete againsit its trains its like if Apple brought out two different Iphones to compete agansit one another.

Both are needed any suggestion otherwise is outrageous. There needs to be choice and BE have the advantage of 24/7 service's to the airport that can run when demand is low where as trains really need to close to capacity to be viable.

Services from Dublin from places like Donegal could be replaced by bus services to Sligo where you could transfer to a train and private operators.

Yes the extra hour or more is a great idea to attract people to public transport.

s for commuter services from places like Meath, Wicklow or Kildare they'd replaced by a outer suburban service by Dublin Bus also the new regional operators could tender out the bus services with the permisson of the NTA including Dublin Bus who would now be a separate enity from CIE.

DB not suitable to operate such services

That brings to my next point Irish Rail I would all they're current Inter City services but in the Dublin Area with Dart and Commuter services which should all be electrified expanding the Dart network I would put out a tender for a private company to run them as a joint venture with Irish Rail my proposed electrified network would stretch as far north as Drogheda as far south as Greystones as it currently is and as far west as Newbridge which will connected from Connolly via the Phoenix Park Tunnel and Maynooth the new company would be simply branded as Dart.

Most of what you say is planned once somebody has a cheque book to pay....

Lines will also be renarranged to allow for double decker trains. An example of this model of privatisation is the Milan Suburban Network which is operated by Trenord a joint venture between Trenitalia (state railways) and LeNord a local private train operator.

No need I;m sure the population density in Milan is far greater than Ireland

Lastly the Luas as it is a great system will be left as it is. Thoughts.

Agree

Stephen15 · 23-08-2015 5:24pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No need I;m sure the population density in Milan is far greater than Ireland

No reason why it can't be repeated on a smaller scale in fact Milan isin't a whole lot bigger bigger then Dublin just more people commuting.

Jamie2k9 · 23-08-2015 5:27pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

No reason why it can't be repeated on a smaller scale in fact Milan isin't a whole lot bigger bigger then Dublin just more people commuting.

Fair enough but I just don't see a justification for such a service which will have little impact on passenger experience. A high frequency DART which adequate capacity at peak hours will do me and most people just fine.

Stephen15 · 23-08-2015 5:32pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Both are needed any suggestion otherwise is outrageous. There needs to be choice and BE have the advantage of 24/7 service's to the airport that can run when demand is low where as trains really need to close to capacity to be viable.

Well private operators like Dublin Coach, GoBus, Citylinkand Aircoach would fill the gap.

Stephen15 · 23-08-2015 5:38pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Fair enough but I just don't see a justification for such a service which will have little impact on passenger experience. A high frequency DART which adequate capacity at peak hours will do me and most people just fine.

It would bring all Dublin's suburban services together as one brand simply Dart and passengers on the Maynooth, Kildare and Drogheda lines will benefit from a higher frenquency services.

Jamie2k9 · 23-08-2015 6:04pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Well private operators like Dublin Coach, GoBus, Citylinkand Aircoach would fill the gap.

The private operators are city to city express and not quiet like BE Expressway which offer some smaller towns a limited service. Private operators couldn't do this as they would be an disadvantage over rail any day.

Would I be correct to assume you are form/live in Dublin?

It would bring all Dublin's suburban services together as one brand simply Dart and passengers on the Maynooth, Kildare and Drogheda lines will benefit from a higher frenquency services.

There is that but do commuters really care about the brand. The reality is they want a decent freq and good service. Dublin Commuter Rail is perfectly acceptable IMO.

Stephen15 · 23-08-2015 6:14pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The private operators are city to city express and not quiet like BE Expressway which offer some smaller towns a limited service. Private operators couldn't do this as they would be an disadvantage over rail any day.

I somehow doubt there is a bus from London to some small town in Cornwall running 24h

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime · 23-08-2015 7:27pm

Is that you enda ?

I hope denis o brien doesn't win all these tenders .....

jimmycrackcorm · 23-08-2015 8:56pm

I stopped reading the OP once he suggested that people have to take the crap train to Sligo and then transfer to bus to get to Donegal.

And if he wants to dissolve BE and move to local bus companies then he should try traveling in Donegal on Lough Swilly buses to get a flavour.

Railways are great once they are high speed and cheap. They're not here.

Stephen15 · 23-08-2015 10:26pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I stopped reading the OP once he suggested that people have to take the crap train to Sligo and then transfer to bus to get to Donegal.

And if he wants to dissolve BE and move to local bus companies then he should try traveling in Donegal on Lough Swilly buses to get a flavour.

Well thats an example of how not to run local buses if it was a timed connection it could work well if the line was upgraded.

MGWR · 24-08-2015 5:30am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Here's a few simple enough transport solutions for Ireland. Firstly I would completely wind up the CIE group. I get started on bus operations I would break up Bus Eireann into different local and municipal bus operations each county would have its own bus company backed by the county council which would greatly improve rural transport. Bus Eireann's intercity is not needed as it is runs almost parallel to the railway network does CIE feel the to have its buses compete against its trains its like if Apple brought out two different Iphones to compete against one another. Services from Dublin from places like Donegal could be replaced by bus services to Sligo where you could transfer to a train and private operators. As for commuter services from places like Meath, Wicklow or Kildare they'd replaced by a outer suburban service by Dublin Bus also the new regional operators could tender out the bus services with the permission of the NTA including Dublin Bus who would now be a separate entity from CIE.
That brings to my next point Irish Rail I would all they're current Inter City services but in the Dublin Area with Dart and Commuter services which should all be electrified expanding the Dart network I would put out a tender for a private company to run them as a joint venture with Irish Rail my proposed electrified network would stretch as far north as Drogheda as far south as Greystones as it currently is and as far west as Newbridge which will connected from Connolly via the Phoenix Park Tunnel and Maynooth the new company would be simply branded as Dart. Lines will also be rearranged to allow for double decker trains. An example of this model of privatisation is the Milan Suburban Network which is operated by Trenord a joint venture between Trenitalia (state railways) and LeNord a local private train operator.
Lastly the Luas as it is a great system will be left as it is. Thoughts.

So centralisation is indeed a big failure? I suspect such people would have been pilloried as heretics against the state back when CIE was first created by the government. Leave the county councils out of it and fully privatise.

And no, Luas is not a "great system". It is woefully under-built for the market it is supposed to serve; it clogs up the streets in the city centre when it ought to have been built underground there (and as DART, frankly), and it has a slow top speed never mind average speed. And it's off-gauge from the general railway network, which destroys flexibility of operations.

Double-deck trains are a non-starter. The expense of rebuilding infrastructure to handle their loading gauge is more prohibitive than that of electrification.

Banjoxed · 24-08-2015 5:44am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I stopped reading the OP once he suggested that people have to take the crap train to Sligo and then transfer to bus to get to Donegal.

And if he wants to dissolve BE and move to local bus companies then he should try traveling in Donegal on Lough Swilly buses to get a flavour.

Railways are great once they are high speed and cheap. They're not here.

Seeing as Lough Swilly bit the dust some time back it might be a tad difficult to get that flavour.

markpb · 24-08-2015 7:10am

MGWR wrote: »

And no, Luas is not a "great system". It is woefully under-built for the market it is supposed to serve; it clogs up the streets in the city centre when it ought to have been built underground there (and as DART, frankly)

And would never been built. Look at DU and MN languishing waiting for funding.

Also, the green line is hardly on-street at all and the red line runs on back streets and medians, it's not exactly "clogging up the street s" like you think.

MGWR wrote: »

it has a slow top speed never mind average speed. And it's off-gauge from the general railway network, which destroys flexibility of operations.

The green line manages the same average speed as the Dart and has a top speed of 70kph which, given the distance between stops, is perfectly fine.

LuckyLloyd · 24-08-2015 7:30am

LUAS is popular because if you live within walking distance of either line it's a reliable high frequency option. However, in the context of a discussion of transport options for the wider Dublin area, I think it falls short of being a core solution.

- it is expensive, time consuming and disruptive to build a line extension / new line;
- it so far has only demonstrated an ability to be cost effective on extremely high demand routes;
- it is relatively slow so a more inefficient option the lengthier the commute;
- it is not a suitable integration option for long distance travellers with large cases, etc;
- it is dependent on the existing road network to a large degree;

How LUAS feels to travel on (and it is a miserable travel experience at peak commuting times when crammed though that's a side issue) in terms of its frequency and ease of use should not cloud the mind when it comes to weighing up long term options for the Dublin area. Dart / Dart Underground / Metro North are where the real viable solutions lie imo.

bk · 24-08-2015 8:35am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The private operators are city to city express and not quiet like BE Expressway which offer some smaller towns a limited service. Private operators couldn't do this as they would be an disadvantage over rail any day.

Hold on there, I'm not saying I agree with the OP, but there are certainly plenty examples of private companies running BE like town stopping services. For example Citylinks stopping service to Galway and their Galway to Clifden service and what about JJ Kavangh!

And notice how these services have no problem at all competing with the train on the same routes!

Private operators would have no problem offering the same type of services BE do, if BE was gone.

markpb · 24-08-2015 8:43am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How LUAS feels to travel on (and it is a miserable travel experience at peak commuting times when crammed though that's a side issue) in terms of its frequency and ease of use should not cloud the mind when it comes to weighing up long term options for the Dublin area. Dart / Dart Underground / Metro North are where the real viable solutions lie imo.

There isn't just one viable solution. Different problems have different solutions. There are corridors in Dublin that are/can be adequately/excellently served by light rail. There are other parts which would be better served by heavy rail and/or underground rail. There are some parts which need heavy rail but without the space to build it. Compromises will have to happen.

We also have to accept that we live in a country which places the quality of public transport far down the list of priorities. That means it's not a priority for politicians which means it limits their willingness to spend large amounts of money. We also live in a country which believes that a) Dublin gets all they money and b) underground train lines are for "real" cities. Until this is overcome, politicians are not going to approve the construction of an expensive underground, heavy-rail line.

We can continue to live in cookoo land and believe that one of them will be approved soon but it's a fallacy and it won't happen. In the meantime, the die-hards would prefer that nothing happens rather than build a light rail line. Those people, if they have any influence, are just as damaging as the Sean Barretts.

LuckyLloyd · 24-08-2015 10:16am

markpb wrote: »

There isn't just one viable solution. Different problems have different solutions. There are corridors in Dublin that are/can be adequately/excellently served by light rail. There are other parts which would be better served by heavy rail and/or underground rail. There are some parts which need heavy rail but without the space to build it. Compromises will have to happen.

We also have to accept that we live in a country which places the quality of public transport far down the list of priorities. That means it's not a priority for politicians which means it limits their willingness to spend large amounts of money. We also live in a country which believes that a) Dublin gets all they money and b) underground train lines are for "real" cities. Until this is overcome, politicians are not going to approve the construction of an expensive underground, heavy-rail line.

We can continue to live in cookoo land and believe that one of them will be approved soon but it's a fallacy and it won't happen. In the meantime, the die-hards would prefer that nothing happens rather than build a light rail line. Those people, if they have any influence, are just as damaging as the Sean Barretts.

The problem becomes when building an extension of the LUAS line to the airport becomes 'something better than nothing' that diverts resources from a project that will have a much more fundamental long term yield. LUAS provides a broadly successful option to the two narrow corridors it currently serves. The interconnectivity of those lines and extension out to Broombridge will enhance the current offering. But it's still a very small part of the puzzle and LUAS preference tends to lie in backward thinking (it works well once it gets running) rather than forward thinking (what will Dublin look like in 2025 / how many people will live and work there / how much throughput is Dublin Airport expected to process).

It also needs to be recognised that everyday short distance urban commuter transport is one part of future need. Sometimes it's hard to imagine in this country because of the limited scope of current regional / national rail services, but an ultimate integration of the airport to the rail system and expansion of Dart services into same could transform Transport on a national level. If we're talking about 'solutions', that's where the real hay is to be made.

end of the road · 24-08-2015 10:23am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Firstly I would completely wind up the CIE group.

Stephen15 wrote: »

ridiculous idea. get rid of CIE itself and leave the 3 companies as is might be an idea, or force integration upon the 3 companies (something the NTA should be doing if they aren't all ready)

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would break up Bus Eireann into different local and municpal bus operations

Stephen15 wrote: »

why? that would require more drivers and busses i suspect, and would remove services and travel opportunities that are beneficial to people even if small in number.

Stephen15 wrote: »

each county would have its own bus company backed by the county council which would greatly improve rural transport.

Stephen15 wrote: »

how would it greatly improve rural transport? where would the county council get the money for to run such bus services or even pay a contractor?

Stephen15 wrote: »

Bus Eireann's intercity is not needed as it is runs almost parallel to the railway network

Stephen15 wrote: »

yes it is needed. it offers a service to towns not connected to the railway, or from towns connected to the railway to towns not. again, it offers services and travel opportunities.

Stephen15 wrote: »

does CIE feel the to have its buses compete againsit its trains

Stephen15 wrote: »

no, the long distance/regional bus operator is competing with the trains. technically the bus company and the train company are separate entities just under the CIE umbrella. again see above for the serving of towns not connected to the railway or services from towns connected to the railway to towns not.

Stephen15 wrote: »

its like if Apple brought out two different Iphones to compete agansit one another.

Stephen15 wrote: »

its like nothing of the sort

Stephen15 wrote: »

Services from Dublin from places like Donegal could be replaced by bus services to Sligo where you could transfer to a train and private operators.

Stephen15 wrote: »

yes, if you want people to take the car instead

Stephen15 wrote: »

As for commuter services from places like Meath, Wicklow or Kildare they'd replaced by a outer suburban service by Dublin Bus

Stephen15 wrote: »

no, dublin bus is for the greater dublin area. they are not a "regional" operator.

Stephen15 wrote: »

the new regional operators could tender out the bus services with the permisson of the NTA including Dublin Bus who would now be a separate enity from CIE.

Stephen15 wrote: »

they could but what would be the point? why have regional opeerators tendering with permission of another authority when you could have the transport authority sorting everything out.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would put out a tender for a private company to run them as a joint venture with Irish Rail

Stephen15 wrote: »

why? what would be the point of this. we'd have 2 operators to pay

Stephen15 wrote: »

Lines will also be renarranged to allow for double decker trains.

Stephen15 wrote: »

where is the money coming from, and what would be the point? we'd probably get dart underground, dart north, and reopen navan for the cost of upgrading the lines for double decker trains

Stephen15 wrote: »

Lastly the Luas as it is a great system will be left as it is.

Stephen15 wrote: »

once the infrastructure is expired it should be upgraded to heavy rail if possible.

Stephen15 wrote: »

No reason why it can't be repeated on a smaller scale in fact Milan isin't a whole lot bigger bigger then Dublin just more people commuting.

there is a reason. money. who is going to shell out for a private company when IE can deliver it with a push up the backside.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Well private operators like Dublin Coach, GoBus, Citylinkand Aircoach would fill the gap.

would they? i'd doubt it. they might on some routes but certainly not every last one that BE operate.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I somehow doubt there is a bus from London to some small town in Cornwall running 24h

i doubt there is a bus from london to some small town in Cornwall at any part of the day never mind 24 hours. due to the distance and travel time, its much easier and quicker to get the train and then get a local bus if one exists.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Well thats an example of how not to run local buses if it was a timed connection it could work well if the line was upgraded.

no it couldn't. why would people use a bus to sligo and then change to the train when they can just take the car as the distance isn't very long.

bk wrote: »

Hold on there, I'm not saying I agree with the OP, but there are certainly plenty examples of private companies running BE like town stopping services. For example Citylinks stopping service to Galway and their Galway to Clifden service and what about JJ Kavangh!

And notice how these services have no problem at all competing with the train on the same routes!

Private operators would have no problem offering the same type of services BE do, if BE was gone.

i should think that would be because they might get the subsidy instead? as in general BE isn't stopping such operators from offering more services like your example above. a system could be sorted out if the want for it to happen was there. along with a subsidy, all be it the government isn't going to subsidize 2 operators on the 1 bus route i'd suspect.

bk · 24-08-2015 4:37pm

end of the road wrote: »

i should think that would be because they might get the subsidy instead? as in general BE isn't stopping such operators from offering more services like your example above. a system could be sorted out if the want for it to happen was there. along with a subsidy, all be it the government isn't going to subsidize 2 operators on the 1 bus route i'd suspect.

Actually the NTA won't issue licenses to private operators in competition with subsidised BE routes.

There has been private operators who requested a second license to certain routes that BE operate already as a subsidized service and the private operators were turned down.

Note that the private operators were going to operate these routes without a subsidy!!

There are certain BE routes that currently receive a subsidy, that clearly shouldn't be. These routes are very busy and highly profitable for BE, but still receive a subsidy!

I also have to agree with the OP's suggestion of the regional city services being broken off and operated by a local company under the city/county council direction. Having seen how terribly BE operate the local city services in Cork and how frustrated the Cork councils are with them, I'm convinced they would be far better run under direct local control.

end of the road · 24-08-2015 4:57pm

bk wrote: »

Actually the NTA won't issue licenses to private operators in competition with subsidised BE routes.

There has been private operators who requested a second license to certain routes that BE operate already as a subsidized service and the private operators were turned down.

Note that the private operators were going to operate these routes without a subsidy!!

so they claim. doesn't mean they would do it, or be able to do it in practice. i would suspect that such routes would be in a minority then a majority but who knows.

bk wrote: »

There are certain BE routes that currently receive a subsidy, that clearly shouldn't be. These routes are very busy and highly profitable for BE, but still receive a subsidy!

what routes? are you sure they are proffitable? being busy and proffitable aren't necessarily the same thing in terms of irish public transport

bk wrote: »

I also have to agree with the OP's suggestion of the regional city services being broken off and operated by a local company under the city/county council direction. Having seen how terribly BE operate the local city services in Cork and how frustrated the Cork councils are with them, I'm convinced they would be far better run under direct local control.

i wouldn't be so sure. don't judge things on the basis of cork and how the council feels about it. the council may complain and be unhappy with bus eireann but that could just be as easily political grumbling and been seen to be doing something then actually caring. it also doesn't mean the council would be capible of running things and that services would be better under local control. they could be, but then again personally i wouldn't be willing to risk local authorities having any more control then they all ready do and the probable extra politics it may bring.

bk · 24-08-2015 5:17pm

end of the road wrote: »

so they claim. doesn't mean they would do it, or be able to do it in practice. i would suspect that such routes would be in a minority then a majority but who knows.

what routes? are you sure they are proffitable? being busy and proffitable aren't necessarily the same thing in terms of irish public transport

The 109, absolutely jam packed every day and relatively high fares, on top of being a subsidised PSO route!

If BE aren't making a profit on this route, then they should be shot and it is direct proof of their ineffeciency.

There is no way a route like the 109 can't be profitable and needs to be subsidised.

Interestingly, back in the 90'sthree private companies operated profitably on this route, until BE came along and muscled them all out with aggressive pricing and their PSO subsidy!

How such a busy and heavily used route requires a PSO subsidy is beyond me!

It was Dublin Coach who were rumoured to look for a license for this route and were turned down. Note Dublin Coach has been growing at a ferocious pace and competing very effectively and profitably with BE on their Expressway routes where competition is allowed. I see no reason why they couldn't also operate profitably on the 109.

Personally I think absolutely every single route should be put out to tender. If BE really are so efficient, then they should have no problems winning the tender.

In reality, I'd expect they wouldn't win most tenders and that many of the currently PSO subsidised routes wouldn't need a subsidy if operated by private companies.

Just look at Donegal, one of the most rural places in Europe, yet most of the routes up there are operated by private companies with no subsidies!

end of the road wrote: »

i wouldn't be so sure. don't judge things on the basis of cork and how the council feels about it. the council may complain and be unhappy with bus eireann but that could just be as easily political grumbling and been seen to be doing something then actually caring. it also doesn't mean the council would be capible of running things and that services would be better under local control. they could be, but then again personally i wouldn't be willing to risk local authorities having any more control then they all ready do and the probable extra politics it may bring.

Oh, I'm sure. I can't say too much, but I have some knowledge of what goes on down in Cork. And some of the bull BE pull down there is simply crazy! What the councils want are similar to the work practices that are the norm in Dublin with Dublin Bus.

end of the road · 24-08-2015 5:59pm

bk wrote: »

The 109, absolutely jam packed every day and relatively high fares, on top of being a subsidised PSO route!

There is no way a route like the 109 can't be profitable and needs to be subsidised.

How such a busy and heavily used route requires a PSO subsidy is beyond me!

it must need one if it is getting one. maybe its to ensure continuing services to low traffic generators along the route if there are any?

bk wrote: »

Interestingly, back in the 90'sthree private companies operated profitably on this route, until BE came along and muscled them all out with aggressive pricing and their PSO subsidy!

well, wasn't that due to effectively no regulation? that situation should never have been allowed, or be allowed to happen ever again

bk wrote: »

It was Dublin Coach who were rumoured to look for a license for this route and were turned down. Note Dublin Coach has been growing at a ferocious pace and competing very effectively and profitably with BE on their Expressway routes where competition is allowed. I see no reason why they couldn't also operate profitably on the 109.

i'm sure if the NTA believe there is something to be gained by allowing dublin coach to operate on the 109 they would allow it, or have done so all ready.

bk wrote: »

Personally I think absolutely every single route should be put out to tender. If BE really are so efficient, then they should have no problems winning the tender.

but what would be the point. the NTA seem to be deciding everything in relation to the current bus tender so i see nothing to be gained. i don't get this "efficient" thing. a bus operates from a to b. how more efficient can it get?

bk wrote: »

In reality, I'd expect they wouldn't win most tenders and that many of the currently PSO subsidised routes wouldn't need a subsidy if operated by private companies.

if so, they would probably be in a minority.

bk wrote: »

Just look at Donegal, one of the most rural places in Europe, yet most of the routes up there are operated by private companies with no subsidies!

thats all grand but.
1. realistically such operations aren't viable for every single route.
2. bus transport is the only option up there for public transport so of course companies will have some business.

Stephen15 · 24-08-2015 6:25pm

Really though Dublin Bus have gotten their act together Irish Rail are beginning too. But Bus Eireann are still useless.

Stephen15 · 24-08-2015 6:26pm

Why can't the expressway route be sold off to a private company

end of the road · 24-08-2015 9:52pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why can't the expressway route be sold off to a private company

because there are plenty of private companies all ready and it brings income into bus eireann. there is no reason to sell off the expressway just because

tabbey · 24-08-2015 10:10pm

What the railway lines in the Dublin area need most is four tracking. If all road vehicles, both long distance and local, on the M1, Swords Road, Malahide Road, Howth Road and Clontarf Road, had to use a two lane road, with a barrier running along the middle to prevent overtaking, there would be outrage, but this is what is happening on the rail line. The slowest stopping train, whether DART or commuter, holds up Enterprise and outer suburban services, making them uncompetitive with road services. Now it is proposed to have a ten minute frequency and a branch to the airport served by DART, they might as well stop mainline trains at all stations as well. The only solution is a four track railway, where long distance trains can speed past local trains, without delays.
The problem here of course, is that during the celtic bubble era, government and CIE allowed construction of buildings right up to the rail line, Tara Street, Connolly, Kilbarrack ,Howth Jn, Portmarnock and Malahide are just some of the locations where people responsible for transport planning just ignored the obstacles being thrown up where a strip of land was essential for the rail infrastructure.
These difficulties need to be addressed before any further expansion of the rail network, as currently outer suburban and intercity services on the northern, south eastern and soon, midland route also, are becoming unfit for purpose.

LXFlyer · 24-08-2015 10:16pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Really though Dublin Bus have gotten their act together Irish Rail are beginning too. But Bus Eireann are still useless.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why can't the expressway route be sold off to a private company

In what respect are they "useless"?

The Deloitte report found them to be efficient.

Why should they sell off their commercial business if it is making a profit?

Passengers would lose the one significant benefit that BE offers over all other operators - through ticketing across the entire network.

What could (and should) be done is to set up some micro websites for each of the towns and cities in which they operate with all the information in one place (fares, timetables, maps etc).

VWD8 · 24-08-2015 10:47pm

bk wrote: »

The 109, absolutely jam packed every day and relatively high fares, on top of being a subsidised PSO route!

If BE aren't making a profit on this route, then they should be shot and it is direct proof of their ineffeciency.

There is no way a route like the 109 can't be profitable and needs to be subsidised.

Interestingly, back in the 90'sthree private companies operated profitably on this route, until BE came along and muscled them all out with aggressive pricing and their PSO subsidy!

How such a busy and heavily used route requires a PSO subsidy is beyond me!

It was Dublin Coach who were rumoured to look for a license for this route and were turned down. Note Dublin Coach has been growing at a ferocious pace and competing very effectively and profitably with BE on their Expressway routes where competition is allowed. I see no reason why they couldn't also operate profitably on the 109.

Personally I think absolutely every single route should be put out to tender. If BE really are so efficient, then they should have no problems winning the tender.

In reality, I'd expect they wouldn't win most tenders and that many of the currently PSO subsidised routes wouldn't need a subsidy if operated by private companies.

Just look at Donegal, one of the most rural places in Europe, yet most of the routes up there are operated by private companies with no subsidies!

Oh, I'm sure. I can't say too much, but I have some knowledge of what goes on down in Cork. And some of the bull BE pull down there is simply crazy! What the councils want are similar to the work practices that are the norm in Dublin with Dublin Bus.

I'm not going to argue with the fact the 109 is a busy, profitable route but its a bit disingenuous to say it is subsidised. The 109 actually subsidises other loss making routes.

To take a simple example. If BE had two PSO routes (109,110) and received a block subsidy of 5,000. The 109 actually makes a profit of 2,000. However the 110 makes losses of 8,000. The block grant isn't sufficient to cover this and the 109 profits also cover the loss. This is a very basic example but multiply it by a few hundered routes and that is the reality.

It is also incorrect to state that private operators would not require subsidies for the majority of routes. There are now some PSO routes operated by private operators and they receive a subsidy for it. For example, I remember reading before the subsidy for M&A coaches Portlaoise- Cashel route worked out at €14 per passenger using it! The subsidy per passenger for Dublin Bus was something like €1 and for BE ~ €4. It should be noted that those areas above were served by BE and Aircoach free of charge to the tax payer previously.

Some of the PSO services carry very few passengers, often single digits. The amount of free travel passes is also unreal on many services and the companies (both public and privates that accept them) are grossly underfunded for them. I believe that if all PSO routes were tendered out the system would actually collapse in many cases given the scale of the underfunding for Free Travel. The privates would pull the plug on the FTP scheme and rightly so. They can't be made scapegoats of for the government.

Yes for years Lough Swilly was the main provider for bus services in Donegal with no subsidy. However they collapsed two years ago and most of rural Donegal is left without a service.

Regarding bus services in Cork, the network has been significantly improved in the past few years by the NTA and BE with more double deckers and improved services. It's traffic congestion that is damaging the quality of bus services in Cork, partly caused by the City Council and it's cycle lane schemes which are reducing road lanes and making bigger footpaths.

Stephen15 · 24-08-2015 10:53pm

tabbey wrote: »

What the railway lines in the Dublin area need most is four tracking. If all road vehicles, both long distance and local, on the M1, Swords Road, Malahide Road, Howth Road and Clontarf Road, had to use a two lane road, with a barrier running along the middle to prevent overtaking, there would be outrage, but this is what is happening on the rail line. The slowest stopping train, whether DART or commuter, holds up Enterprise and outer suburban services, making them uncompetitive with road services. Now it is proposed to have a ten minute frequency and a branch to the airport served by DART, they might as well stop mainline trains at all stations as well. The only solution is a four track railway, where long distance trains can speed past local trains, without delays.
The problem here of course, is that during the celtic bubble era, government and CIE allowed construction of buildings right up to the rail line, Tara Street, Connolly, Kilbarrack ,Howth Jn, Portmarnock and Malahide are just some of the locations where people responsible for transport planning just ignored the obstacles being thrown up where a strip of land was essential for the rail infrastructure.
These difficulties need to be addressed before any further expansion of the rail network, as currently outer suburban and intercity services on the northern, south eastern and soon, midland route also, are becoming unfit for purpose.

Couldn't agree more it would be like if the German ICE train had to run behind the S-Bahn

VWD8 · 24-08-2015 11:00pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why can't the expressway route be sold off to a private company

Well its profits help to subsidise the PSO routes so selling it off would only rise the subsidy needed by BE annually!

Jamie2k9 · 24-08-2015 11:46pm

bk wrote: »

Hold on there, I'm not saying I agree with the OP, but there are certainly plenty examples of private companies running BE like town stopping services. For example Citylinks stopping service to Galway and their Galway to Clifden service and what about JJ Kavangh!

And notice how these services have no problem at all competing with the train on the same routes!

Private operators would have no problem offering the same type of services BE do, if BE was gone.

I'm not saying none would do it but the primary focus is express and take BE away whatever way anybody looks at it those 10-15 single fares will be gone overnight as all they will be competing with is a high cost train.

Really though Dublin Bus have gotten their act together Irish Rail are beginning too. But Bus Eireann are still useless.

However much flack BE get they are the ones who make a profit most years unlike the other two so clearly they are doing something right.

Jamie2k9 · 24-08-2015 11:49pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why can't the expressway route be sold off to a private company

Why should it be sold off, what is a private operator going to do that BE won't?

Stephen15 · 25-08-2015 12:18am

VWD8 wrote: »

Well its profits help to subsidise the PSO routes so selling it off would only rise the subsidy needed by BE annually!

Yes but there will be profits made from selling it off it won't be just a gift to a private operator. A more localised service would mean there will more attention to detail and it would draw more to local centres like Galway, Limerick, Sligo and so on rather then being so attracted to Dublin. Basically decisions about rural transport wouldn't be made by Dublin. I'm probably getting into politics now but really we should allow for more local governance like on the continent. Back on the point locally run buses travelling to various regional hubs would create a more efficient and more frequent service. Also having a look at some of Bus Eireann current regional buses around Limerick I saw plenty of 00-L 99-L when there have constant deliveries of new buses around the Dublin region over the last 5 years.

Lastly what's the need for a Big DB double decker on the 59 or the 63 when a smaller single decker would be adequate on nearly all route that don't serve the city centre.

end of the road · 25-08-2015 1:44am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes but there will be profits made from selling it off

one off proffits. then there will be no steady income apart from the subsidy which can be changed on a wim. how is that a good thing? sounds stupid to remove a steady income for a one off proffit.

Stephen15 wrote: »

it won't be just a gift to a private operator.

effectively it will as BE won't be competing anymore on such routes.

Stephen15 wrote: »

A more localised service would mean there will more attention to detail and it would draw more to local centres like Galway, Limerick, Sligo and so on rather then being so attracted to Dublin.

there are all ready services to such places, the demand is small compared to dublin. dublin is where most want to go.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Basically decisions about rural transport wouldn't be made by Dublin.

they aren't, they are made by the government/NTA who just so happen to be based in the capital. i'd trust them before councils TBH.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I'm probably getting into politics now but really we should allow for more local governance like on the continent.

absolutely not. local government both here and in the uk are just another level of government which really don't offer anything. they should have less power not more. on the continent such government are actually interested in what they do whereas here for the most part its all about politics.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Back on the point locally run buses travelling to various regional hubs would create a more efficient and more frequent service.

how will it considering we all ready have them and yet they are as efficient as possible and for the most part as frequent as they can be for the demand? your proposing nothing new here.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Also having a look at some of Bus Eireann current regional buses around Limerick I saw plenty of 00-L 99-L when there have constant deliveries of new buses around the Dublin region over the last 5 years.

so? just because its from 99 doesn't mean its junk. the new busses can only be in 1 place at a time, and they can only be stretched so far. at the moment new coaches are for the intercity routes. i'm sure more will come eventually to replace older busses.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Lastly what's the need for a Big DB double decker on the 59 or the 63 when a smaller single decker would be adequate on nearly all route that don't serve the city centre.

economies of scale and fleet efficientsy. easy to have a 1 size fits all solution then spending more money on big busses for this route and small for that route, and it means capacity is availible should these routes need it.

LXFlyer · 25-08-2015 5:53am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes but there will be profits made from selling it off it won't be just a gift to a private operator. A more localised service would mean there will more attention to detail and it would draw more to local centres like Galway, Limerick, Sligo and so on rather then being so attracted to Dublin. Basically decisions about rural transport wouldn't be made by Dublin. I'm probably getting into politics now but really we should allow for more local governance like on the continent. Back on the point locally run buses travelling to various regional hubs would create a more efficient and more frequent service. Also having a look at some of Bus Eireann current regional buses around Limerick I saw plenty of 00-L 99-L when there have constant deliveries of new buses around the Dublin region over the last 5 years.

Lastly what's the need for a Big DB double decker on the 59 or the 63 when a smaller single decker would be adequate on nearly all route that don't serve the city centre.

You do realise that Bus Eireann has regional management, schedulers and planners?

Stephen15 · 25-08-2015 11:57am

lxflyer wrote: »

You do realise that Bus Eireann has regional management, schedulers and planners?

Yes but really the buck stops with management in Dublin.

LXFlyer · 25-08-2015 12:05pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes but really the buck stops with management in Dublin.

Actually the buck stops with the NTA - they dictate service levels and investment now for PSO services.

I'm still struggling to understand your assessment of BE as "useless", given that they make a profit, and got a pretty much clean bill of health from the Deloitte review.

Nor have you even remotely come up with a good reason why BE should cease to operate their Expressway network other than you think it's a good idea.

Stephen15 · 25-08-2015 1:42pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm still struggling to understand your assessment of BE as "useless", given that they make a profit, and got a pretty much clean bill of health from the Deloitte review.

Nor have you even remotely come up with a good reason why BE should cease to operate their Expressway network other than you think it's a good idea.

They're useless as they provide an atrious service. BE makes a profit as it doesn't have as to provide as many loss making routes as DB. How does local buses in the UK fund themselves since National Express was sold off.

LXFlyer · 25-08-2015 1:45pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

They're useless as they provide an atrious service. BE makes a profit as it doesn't have as to provide as many loss making routes as DB. How does local buses in the UK fund themselves since National Express was sold off.

Well perhaps you can exactly where this is happening?

You're making very sweeping statements without anything to back it up. Your accounting knowledge seems to be exceptionally flawed too.

I certainly would not cite privatised buses in the UK as anything approaching a model to follow here.

end of the road · 25-08-2015 1:58pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

They're useless as they provide an atrious service.

whats an "atrious service" how are they useless if they are making a proffit, they must be doing something right even if they aren't perfect.

Stephen15 wrote: »

BE makes a profit as it doesn't have as to provide as many loss making routes as DB.

really? i'd suggest it makes a proffit because people use a number of their routes. i'd also suggest they probably have a lot more loss making routes then DB.

Stephen15 wrote: »

How does local buses in the UK fund themselves since National Express was sold off.

well, the odd few get some funding, the rest survive on what they bring in. everywhere else probably does without. the UK bus model outside london is for the most part de-regulation, all though i think the other cities are starting to take control now. de-regulation is not something that should ever be followed under any circumstances. i'm not even in favour of tendering TBH as to me it looks like the NTA are taking control of everything meaning there is probably nothing the companies can propose, and i'm not satisfied that long term it would be cheeper.

Stephen15 · 26-08-2015 12:01am

Ok so how come in the likes of Italy each region has its own version of the NTA who is owned by the local council doing the exact same work as the NTA some routes are tendered but most remain in the local governments hands. I can only speak for Italy as its a country I regularly visit but this model seems to work very well from a customers point of view buses are always on time and they are relatively cheap compared to Ireland. In the region I visited all of the services formerly tendered out were actually taken back into state hands. This model has worked so well it's actually expanding into local rail transport (not intercity) there is no reason why this model can't be repeated here. Another question I have is how does the EU even allow BE to operate I don't know of any other EU member state that has a national state owned bus company in fact I can't think of another country in world that has such a model.

Stephen15 · 26-08-2015 12:05am

lxflyer wrote: »

Well perhaps you can exactly where is this happening.

I've read quite a lot of thing on this and various other websites saying that BE are a useless shower.

dubscottie · 26-08-2015 12:19am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Lines will also be renarranged to allow for double decker trains. An example of this model of privatisation is the Milan Suburban Network which is operated by Trenord a joint venture between Trenitalia (state railways) and LeNord a local private train operator.

You do realize that the entire network would have to be rebuilt to fit DD trains??

Every overbridge rebuilt and road closures etc while this was going on.. Not to mention the OHLE (the power for the trains) would need to be raised..

No DARTS for months..

So no busses as the bridges are gone, and no trains as the line is being built.. Use the car! Great idea..

Again. Most of mainland Europe was destroyed by WW2 so had a blank canvas for transport. We (and the UK) have the oldest railways in the world.

DD trains were tried in South London....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD

Not great..

There is a railway term you should look up.. Loading gauge.. It will explain why they have bigger trains on mainland Europe than in Ireland or the UK..

end of the road · 26-08-2015 1:44am

Stephen15 wrote: »

Ok so how come in the likes of Italy each region has its own version of the NTA who is owned by the local council doing the exact same work as the NTA

i don't know, nor care TBH. italy is a very different country to ireland with solutions to meet its needs, just like in this case ireland has a solution to meet its needs.

Stephen15 wrote: »

this model seems to work very well from a customers point of view buses are always on time and they are relatively cheap compared to Ireland.

i'd bet that
1. they are funded enough to ensure the fares can be low
2. any issues that can cause busses to be late are removed as far as is possible

Stephen15 wrote: »

In the region I visited all of the services formerly tendered out were actually taken back into state hands. This model has worked so well it's actually expanding into local rail transport (not intercity) there is no reason why this model can't be repeated here.

but its the model we have. state companies provide public transport along with private competition on routes where it is viable. it works very well. why change it just because.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Another question I have is how does the EU even allow BE to operate

why wouldn't it. what business is it of the EU if ireland has a state company operating bus services, specially as private operators can operate services as well. frankly its none of their business.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't know of any other EU member state that has a national state owned bus company in fact I can't think of another country in world that has such a model.

well, thats their choice if that is the case. just like its ours to have state companies providing the majority of subsidized services. the companies here aren't perfect (lord knows i have my issues with irish rail) but in general the model works for subsidized services, and where viable there are private operators in competition.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I've read quite a lot of thing on this and various other websites saying that BE are a useless shower.

you have read it so it must be true. there will always be all sorts of rabel rabel about how a company is useless just because the bus got stuck in traffic and so on.

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