All-Ireland Hurling Final 2015 - Kilkenny v. Galway@15:30 Croke Park MOD NOTE POST #1

T0001

Will it be Kilkenny's day again or can Galway put a spanner in the works?



Mod Note here

dastardly00

Ah sure they're great friends them two :pac:

alphasully

Whats the odds on another draw

alphasully

alphasully wrote: »

Whats the odds on another draw

Much the same as the odds for any sort of draw.

Also there's only about 6 from Galway from that year who started on Sunday with another 3 on the bench.

I expect a much different result to the LF this year in 3 weeks.

KK need Hogan and TJ firing or they'll lose.
Galway have won the last two with JC drawing a blank so we're not reliant on one man anymore.

C.Cooney may also be available for the bench and he was the biggest contributor last year.

Whelan also wasn't around for the LF and is chipping in with a couple each game and David Burke had been out a long time and probably wasn't 100% at that point, flying it again the past two games.

I think with a big and vocal crowd it'll give the players that extra 10% in terms of work rate compared to the LF.
I'd be more disappointed if we lost this than I was in 2012.

KK have lost some great players since then and while they're still a top team, I don't think they're anywhere near as strong as they were then and I think we're better.

To be the champion, you have to beat the champion.... And I think this could be the game that really signals the end of the dynasty.
They won't be going away entirely, but I don't think they'll be doing the dog on the AI spread over the next few years.

oconnol1

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Much the same as the odds for any sort of draw.

Also there's only about 6 from Galway from that year who started on Sunday with another 3 on the bench.

I expect a much different result to the LF this year in 3 weeks.

KK need Hogan and TJ firing or they'll lose.
Galway have won the last two with JC drawing a blank so we're not reliant on one man anymore.

C.Cooney may also be available for the bench and he was the biggest contributor last year.

Whelan also wasn't around for the LF and is chipping in with a couple each game and David Burke had been out a long time and probably wasn't 100% at that point, flying it again the past two games.

I think with a big and vocal crowd it'll give the players that extra 10% in terms of work rate compared to the LF.
I'd be more disappointed if we lost this than I was in 2012.

KK have lost some great players since then and while they're still a top team, I don't think they're anywhere near as strong as they were then and I think we're better.

To be the champion, you have to beat the champion.... And I think this could be the game that really signals the end of the dynasty.
They won't be going away entirely, but I don't think they'll be doing the dog on the AI spread over the next few years.

Hey, don't forget Richie power is on the way back and Jackie tyrell is on the mend buddy. Only time can tell. Kilkenny Abu .

dirkmeister

oconnol1 wrote: »

Hey, don't forget Richie power is on the way back and Jackie tyrell is on the mend buddy. Only time can tell. Kilkenny Abu .

Mick Fennelly missed the Leinster final too.

oconnol1

dirkmeister wrote: »

Mick Fennelly missed the Leinster final too.

Exactly!!!.

oconnol1

oconnol1 wrote: »

Hey, don't forget Richie power is on the way back and Jackie tyrell is on the mend buddy. Only time can tell. Kilkenny Abu .

I left Power out because like C.Cooney he's unlikely to play at this point.
I think though there's something a bit more special about TJ and Hogan along with Canning from our side.

As for Jackie, I'd be shocked if he went from ankle surgery to starting an AI in 5 weeks.
His fitness will be shot and ankles are a dangerous thing to mess with. Had a minor injury on my own and reinjured it first night back 7 months later. He's had surgery and they think he'll be back in 5 weeks?.

Anyway ye don't need this AI as much as we do. And I hope that's the deciding factor. We can work something out next year :P

oconnol1

gilberto_eire wrote: »

I left Power out because like C.Cooney he's unlikely to play at this point.
I think though there's something a bit more special about TJ and Hogan along with Canning from our side.

As for Jackie, I'd be shocked if he went from ankle surgery to starting an AI in 5 weeks.
His fitness will be shot and ankles are a dangerous thing to mess with. Had a minor injury on my own and reinjured it first night back 7 months later. He's had surgery and they think he'll be back in 5 weeks?.

Anyway ye don't need this AI as much as we do. And I hope that's the deciding factor. We can work something out next year :P

Sure time will tell, looking forward to the 06th sept. Great day out. The winner takes it all. Richie Power is training and doing well. Jackie injury is not as serious as reported, he is minding himself.😀

brookville

Had great craic with the galway supporters over the years,sound people,kk will be well up for this no doubt,hopefully there'll be no injuries between now and then

K4t

dirkmeister wrote: »

Mick Fennelly missed the Leinster final too.

If he's fully fit for the final I can't see past KK - best hurler in the country for me. His brother aint too bad either.

aidan24326

K4t wrote: »

If he's fully fit for the final I can't see past KK - best hurler in the country for me. His brother aint too bad either.

Colin is hit and miss but Michael is certainly a top class player.

Galway will need to up it again to win this one. Intensity alone won't beat Kilkenny, they're masters at soaking up pressure and then picking you off when the chance presents itself. It's going to take another monumental effort for Galway to win this one. We've definitely improved since the Leinster Final and probably weren't at full throttle that day, but then again neither were Kilkenny.

blackcard

Teams comparison. I am presuming that Jackie Tyrrell and Richie Power will not be fit and that Michael Fennelly will be.

Goalkeeper. Both Murphy and Callinan in good form. No advantage.
Full Back line. Paul Murphy has been in very good form after struggling in the league, Joey Holden has only played 3 games at full back at inter-county level but has coped okay so far. Prendergast has limited experience at this level. Coen is generally a classy operator, Mannion has generally played well this year but struggled last Sunday, Hanbury played well in general. Interesting to see who will start at full back, more than likely will have to mark TJ Reid at some stage. Canning and Glynn will try and test Holden. Slight advantage to KK here.
Half Back line. Harte and Burke mastered their opponents last Sunday with Tannion powering into the game in the last 10 minutes. Cillian Buckley has been outstanding this year, Joyce steady, Padraig Walsh probably not as good as last year. Buckley may be asked to mark Cathal Mannion if he is deployed in the half forward line. No advantage.
Midfield. Vital for KK that Fennelly starts and has been able to train. Fogarty has been very reliable. Andy Smith covers a lot of ground and generally contributes a score whilst Burke played very well against Tipp. Advantage to KK if Fennelly is fit, otherwise advantage to Gy.
Canning, Mannion and Flynn versus Reid, Hogan and Larkin. Galway's best 3 forwards against KK's best. Canning has got on a mountain of ball in the last two games but has been errant in his shooting. If KK allows him the same amount of possession, it could be game over. Mannion dropped deeper against Tipp and continued his prolific scoring whilst Flynn was a contender for motm.
Reid and Richie Hogan have continued their good form from last year whilst Larkin's experience usually gets him a few scores. Mannion was substituted against KK in the LF so I give advantage to KK.
Glynn, Donnellan and Whelan against Aylward, Fennelly and Walsh. The workers in the forward lines but will also provide scores. Walsh and Fennelly seem to lack confidence at the moment so I give advantage to Gy.
Bench. Have rarely seen a Kk bench with so little experience so advantage Gy.
Manager and tactics, advantage to KK.
Overall, if Mick Fennelly is fit to start, I take KK to win, otherwise Gy.

Mountainlad

Was there any discussion about the pull on Woodlock on The Sunday Game night show, haven't heard a thing about it since?

tbiggertycome

TBH the individual battles really cannot be judged as it will very much depend on the lads, on the day. For me there are two things Galway need to do to win this one.

1. Dominate in midfield against a midfield that actually exists and not like the Tipp or Cork midfields which may as well have been sitting in row ZZ in the Hogan for all they contributed to their matches against Galway. Mick Fennelly and Conor Fogarty will be a completely different proposition, with their pace, power, skill, tackling and above all their workrate. The middle of the field will be a war zone with virtually no space compared to previous games. In the Tipp game Galway had acres of space and time in the middle third allowing for easier setting up of scoring opportunities. Can Galway dominate here?

2. Can Galway handle the physicality? It's one thing to dish out the physicality as they have been doing brilliantly to Dublin the 2nd day, against Cork and very effectively against Tipp. What happens though when their under the incessant pressure and physicality that Kilkenny bring from 15 back to 1? Kilkenny don't mind the game physical that's how they've played and trained for years. As far as I remember there have only been two teams in the Championship to give the physicality back to Galway. Dublin the first day a game they should have won but they didn't have the courage of their convictions and Galway did well to get back and get a draw that day. The only other time they faced this physicality and pressure was against Kilkenny in the Leinster final. After a good fight and hard work the physical and mental challenge of being constantly harassed and harried finally showed with 20 mins to go. The players flagging under the pressure, they started making more basic errors and handing easier ball back to Kilkenny who continued to punish these with scores.

If Galway can answer the two of these issues they will be deserving AI champions. I have my doubts though, maybe the Galway people hear can tell me why I'm wrong to have doubts.

leestone

tbiggertycome wrote: »

TBH the individual battles really cannot be judged as it will very much depend on the lads, on the day. For me there are two things Galway need to do to win this one.

1. Dominate in midfield against a midfield that actually exists and not like the Tipp or Cork midfields which may as well have been sitting in row ZZ in the Hogan for all they contributed to their matches against Galway. Mick Fennelly and Conor Fogarty will be a completely different proposition, with their pace, power, skill, tackling and above all their workrate. The middle of the field will be a war zone with virtually no space compared to previous games. In the Tipp game Galway had acres of space and time in the middle third allowing for easier setting up of scoring opportunities. Can Galway dominate here?

2. Can Galway handle the physicality? It's one thing to dish out the physicality as they have been doing brilliantly to Dublin the 2nd day, against Cork and very effectively against Tipp. What happens though when their under the incessant pressure and physicality that Kilkenny bring from 15 back to 1? Kilkenny don't mind the game physical that's how they've played and trained for years. As far as I remember there have only been two teams in the Championship to give the physicality back to Galway. Dublin the first day a game they should have won but they didn't have the courage of their convictions and Galway did well to get back and get a draw that day. The only other time they faced this physicality and pressure was against Kilkenny in the Leinster final. After a good fight and hard work the physical and mental challenge of being constantly harassed and harried finally showed with 20 mins to go. The players flagging under the pressure, they started making more basic errors and handing easier ball back to Kilkenny who continued to punish these with scores.

If Galway can answer the two of these issues they will be deserving AI champions. I have my doubts though, maybe the Galway people hear can tell me why I'm wrong to have doubts.

Agree very much to a point, but think Mick Fennelly is not the player he was 4 years ago maybe injuries, miles on the clock have diminished his skills, As always you can never under estimate the cats but I feel there will be no surprises sprung on the day e.g Walter in 2012.

Angry bird

I'd be pretty confident for a Galway win based on the performances against Cork and Tipp. The necessary intensity and physicality has been demonstrated in both matches and a good improvement in those games. Killenny are of course a different proposition but I think it's a question as to whether Killenny can live with Galway rather than the other way around. A tighter full back line, taking goal opportunities and continue the good work since the Leinster final will see a 5 point win. Hopefully Mayo can bring Sam west as well a fortnight later.

johnny osbourne

galway win

tbiggertycome

tbiggertycome wrote: »

As far as I remember there have only been two teams in the Championship to give the physicality back to Galway. Dublin the first day a game they should have won but they didn't have the courage of their convictions and Galway did well to get back and get a draw that day

You're not the only one to say this, analyst's among others have said it too.

I was there and watched it back and one thing most people seem to forget is Galway butchered a mountain of goal chances in the first half which to me is a bigger factor than one missed free.

We got zilch from all the goal chances as well, no 65s, no second chance points.
A few were shots but most were final passes going astray which would have been guaranteed points had they opted against taking it on.

The replay result came as no surprise to me as we created the chances in the first game but got no return and on that day it was the polar opposite.

The worry is that in the two Dublin games, Cork and Tipp a lot of chances were created with various degrees of success.
Cork it took a while to pull away, Tipp we left in the game, Dub it was one or the other.
The KK game was the only game that didn't resemble any of those. However we went from hammering them in the 2012 LF to failing in Sept so I wouldn't be remotely worried about that result in a few weeks.
Hard for a team to bring it physically in an empty stadium in July.
We'll have the majority there in a few weeks and that'll give the extra 10% needed to harass better.

Also Whelan has been added since the LF, David Burke has came back into it more since then and KK may be even weaker than they were that day.

If Reid and Hogan have bad days they're very vulnerable now but in fairness its hard to stop even one.

dastardly00

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Hard for a team to bring it physically in an empty stadium in July.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel with that excuse!

dastardly00

dastardly00 wrote: »

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel with that excuse!

Not really.

There's a big difference in playing in a packed stadium then an empty Croker in July.

If the stakes aren't high(elimination) and its like a morgue in the stadium then the game will play different than it will in late summer.

dastardly00

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Not really.

There's a big difference in playing in a packed stadium then an empty Croker in July.

If the stakes aren't high(elimination) and its like a morgue in the stadium then the game will play different than it will in late summer.

An empty stadium never stopped Kilkenny from bringing their physicality.

It's a píss poor excuse in my book if you want to be an elite team.

Mountainlad

Galway did miss goal chances early v Dublin in fairness and reality should have won. But in the second half they were under the coche and could easily have lost.

In fairness, though they are definitely comfortably better than Dublin, Ger Cunninghams decision to play an injured corner back on what has transpired to be yet best player this year has a lot to do with the margin of victory.

I've no issue with people thinking Galway can win, of course they can, but the confidence and widespread willingness to write off the Leinster final bemuses me. I saw similar things after the semi, when some people in Waterford said we made too many mistakes which gave us no chance. I'm sure if we'd another game against Cork, there'd be some saying we've improved and we're back on track etc.

Kilkenny make teams look bad, they are that good. As for no intensity, I have a strong recollection of Galways intensity actually being highlighted on the Sunday Game night show, particularly the one that led to David Burke's potshot.

Michael Fennelly is back so there is improvement in Kilkenny, I think there's more in there own forwards too but dunno if we'll see it. Colin Fennelly hit three points in the all Ireland replay last year, he's plenty capable of it. So far nobody has really been able to raise a candle to Kilkenny, I think they got the their best game so far the last day but we're still comfortable in the end.

I don't think Galway played as loose as they did v Tipp from what I remember of It, and that limited goal chances for Kilkenny. It also limited their own opportunities, they got Flynns goal alright but Cannings goal kept them in it. It was one of the best goals I've ever seen and my worry is I think it's a bit much to be expecting that again. Without that they would have been hammered, and as I said Michael Fennelly is back. Conor Whelan has huge potential but is 18, and I reckon he won't get a puck.

My own feeling is that Galway will only win if Kilkenny underperform and they get their tactics spot on. Don't ask me what that involves because I have no idea.

tbiggertycome

leestone wrote: »

Agree very much to a point, but think Mick Fennelly is not the player he was 4 years ago maybe injuries, miles on the clock have diminished his skills, As always you can never under estimate the cats but I feel there will be no surprises sprung on the day e.g Walter in 2012.

Mick Fennelly has a back issue and the semi final was his first real hurling this year with only a few full weeks training under his belt It'll be the difference between him playing the drawn AI last year and he's imperious performance in the replay. Have no doubt or illusions Fennelly will be in top form.

However I agree there won't be any surprises there never is with Cody unless it's a replay and we all know his record in those!

tbiggertycome

gilberto_eire wrote: »

You're not the only one to say this, analyst's among others have said it too.

I was there and watched it back and one thing most people seem to forget is Galway butchered a mountain of goal chances in the first half which to me is a bigger factor than one missed free.

We got zilch from all the goal chances as well, no 65s, no second chance points.
A few were shots but most were final passes going astray which would have been guaranteed points had they opted against taking it on.

The replay result came as no surprise to me as we created the chances in the first game but got no return and on that day it was the polar opposite.

The worry is that in the two Dublin games, Cork and Tipp a lot of chances were created with various degrees of success.
Cork it took a while to pull away, Tipp we left in the game, Dub it was one or the other.
The KK game was the only game that didn't resemble any of those. However we went from hammering them in the 2012 LF to failing in Sept so I wouldn't be remotely worried about that result in a few weeks.
Hard for a team to bring it physically in an empty stadium in July.
We'll have the majority there in a few weeks and that'll give the extra 10% needed to harass better.

Also Whelan has been added since the LF, David Burke has came back into it more since then and KK may be even weaker than they were that day.

If Reid and Hogan have bad days they're very vulnerable now but in fairness its hard to stop even one.

Realistically if anyone in a Kilkenny shirt has a bad day we're vulnerable as are Galway if their not all at 100%.

I can't remember the drawn match 100% and I don't have it to look back on but my impression was Galway had lots of missed chances because they were under pressure from the physical challenge Dublin fronted up with. This disappeared the second day and Galway got their house in order and bossed it very well all the way through.

You seem to me missing my main point however. We agree that ye physically bossed Cork and Tipp and your intensity got back to what it had been against Dublin in the replay, where ye harassed and harried the opposition into making mistakes. The point is though is that none of those teams matched or beat you for physicallity. The only team to do that was Kilkenny and strangely enough they beat ye. It's not that ye weren't physical that day ye were and some of the early hits were ferocious and heavy. The thing is the Kilkenny lads a are used to it and give it back in spades. I don't think ye've been tested again physically since that day. Do you?

Whelan is a very good player and could be excellent in a few years time but is he good enough to make the difference in an AI final in front of that wall of sound from 83 thousand? He could have a great game and more power to him if he does. This Galway team is young and a lot of them weren't around in 2012 and while that has it's advantages as regards baggage, it costs ye in the experience stakes and some lads just don't handle their first final that well, some will excel others it will bypass them and you can't predict which players it will happen too. Kilkenny are all used to this most have played in multiple finals and know the routine.

If you think Kilkenny with a fit again M Fennelly in midfield instead of W Walsh is a weaker team I'd love to see your stronger team!

I won't even get into the silly comment about players intensity and physically and the amount of people in the stadium. I've seen some of the most intense performances by teams in front of a less than hundred people.

If you think that 2012 has a bearing on this game your deluded. It will from the fact that some players played that year and feel they want to do better. However if you think because you beat us in the Leinster final in 2012 and we beat ye in the replay that it automatically means you will win the final because you lost the Leinster final this year. If anything it puts you in a weaker position because you haven't beaten this team you don't know if you can, you knew ye could in 2012.

oconnol1

Hello all, have any clubs received their tickets yet.

MfMan

tbiggertycome wrote: »

You seem to me missing my main point however. We agree that ye physically bossed Cork and Tipp and your intensity got back to what it had been against Dublin in the replay, where ye harassed and harried the opposition into making mistakes. The point is though is that none of those teams matched or beat you for physicallity. The only team to do that was Kilkenny and strangely enough they beat ye. It's not that ye weren't physical that day ye were and some of the early hits were ferocious and heavy. The thing is the Kilkenny lads a are used to it and give it back in spades. I don't think ye've been tested again physically since that day. Do you?

Whelan is a very good player and could be excellent in a few years time but is he good enough to make the difference in an AI final in front of that wall of sound from 83 thousand? He could have a great game and more power to him if he does. This Galway team is young and a lot of them weren't around in 2012 and while that has it's advantages as regards baggage, it costs ye in the experience stakes and some lads just don't handle their first final that well, some will excel others it will bypass them and you can't predict which players it will happen too. Kilkenny are all used to this most have played in multiple finals and know the routine.

Agree with much of this. I think the whole 'physicality' thing is a little bit over-stated, from both teams. What Galway are doing better this year, to my mind, is playing with greater intensity and pace, such that if and when they force possession turnovers, they move the ball quicker and have better players in position to use the ball when it comes. It's not as if either team are going around constantly hitting, clattering or shouldering opponents - neither of them work that way.

Greater experience is undoubtedly a card in KK's favour, but it is not the 'be or end all' - Galway footballers had a great blend of the established and the youthful in 1998.

If you think Kilkenny with a fit again M Fennelly in midfield instead of W Walsh is a weaker team I'd love to see your stronger team!

Fennelly for sure a far superior player to Walsh, but how match-fit or strong is he? To say that he will be on full power come final day may be heart over head?

If you think that 2012 has a bearing on this game your deluded. It will from the fact that some players played that year and feel they want to do better. However if you think because you beat us in the Leinster final in 2012 and we beat ye in the replay that it automatically means you will win the final because you lost the Leinster final this year. If anything it puts you in a weaker position because you haven't beaten this team you don't know if you can, you knew ye could in 2012.

It's a little hard to escape the 2012 metric though; KK then had JJ, Brian Hogan, Tommy Walsh, Henry, Aidan Fogarty, and fully fit (Michael Fennelly, Eoin Larkin, Richie Hogan, Jackie Tyrell). Can it be said the current team is stronger than that? Galway's almost certainly is.....

tbiggertycome

MfMan wrote: »

Agree with much of this. I think the whole 'physicality' thing is a little bit over-stated, from both teams. What Galway are doing better this year, to my mind, is playing with greater intensity and pace, such that if and when they force possession turnovers, they move the ball quicker and have better players in position to use the ball when it comes. It's not as if either team are going around constantly hitting, clattering or shouldering opponents - neither of them work that way.

Greater experience is undoubtedly a card in KK's favour, but it is not the 'be or end all' - Galway footballers had a great blend of the established and the youthful in 1998.



Fennelly for sure a far superior player to Walsh, but how match-fit or strong is he? To say that he will be on full power come final day may be heart over head?



It's a little hard to escape the 2012 metric though; KK then had JJ, Brian Hogan, Tommy Walsh, Henry, Aidan Fogarty, and fully fit (Michael Fennelly, Eoin Larkin, Richie Hogan, Jackie Tyrell). Can it be said the current team is stronger than that? Galway's almost certainly is.....

I don't doubt that the 2012 match will have a small bearing on the match more in the players psyche than anything else. But to suggest that Galway will win because this year is a reversal of 2012 is just plain stupid.
Yes Kilkenny have lost the players above we have replaced those players with new guys who also have AI winning experience under there belt.

While experience is not the be all and end all, in a match this close every advantage that gives you a half percent advantage over your direct opponent makes a huge difference at this level.

From what I have heard about training M Fennelly is flying I suppose we'll only know on the day though but I'm confident he will preform.

You hit it spot on when you say that it's more intensity and pace of play than actual hits and sorry for my inaccurate description. However my point still stands I don't think Galway have come under the kind pressure that Kilkenny bring. That is not to say that Galway can't cope with it and I do think it'll be an incredibly close match that could swing either way in the end. Obviously I'm plumming for the Kilkenny pressure to tell in the end and we'll do enough to win it out in the end.

Mountainlad

I'd be inclined to say that Kilkenny are better than they were in 2012. I remember it was the first year Richie Hogan played midfield, he got sent off against Limerick so would have missed the Tipp game. Thought he struggled for physicality, where he doesn't now in fact he relishes it. In my opinion he's the new Shefflin, dare I say is he keeps going the way he's going I think he'll be even better.

Given they needed Cillian Buckley (who I felt should have come on the first day to stem the tide) and Walter Walsh to save the day in particular. Cillian Buckley is better than he was then, Joyce too he started the first day. The cracks were showing in Tommy Walsh at that stage. Fog arty was dropped for the replay, he was a good forward and a great day in the 2006 all Ireland final but he was never a permanent fixture in the team, you'd swear he was the way some people talk about him. Aylward looks pretty good to me.

So for me to date they are better, better even than last year but I suppose the real test of that is Sunday week.

MfMan

Mountainlad wrote: »

I'd be inclined to say that Kilkenny are better than they were in 2012. I remember it was the first year Richie Hogan played midfield, he got sent off against Limerick so would have missed the Tipp game. Thought he struggled for physicality, where he doesn't now in fact he relishes it. In my opinion he's the new Shefflin, dare I say is he keeps going the way he's going I think he'll be even better.

Given they needed Cillian Buckley (who I felt should have come on the first day to stem the tide) and Walter Walsh to save the day in particular. Cillian Buckley is better than he was then, Joyce too he started the first day. The cracks were showing in Tommy Walsh at that stage. Fog arty was dropped for the replay, he was a good forward and a great day in the 2006 all Ireland final but he was never a permanent fixture in the team, you'd swear he was the way some people talk about him. Aylward looks pretty good to me.

So for me to date they are better, better even than last year but I suppose the real test of that is Sunday week.

Better than last year, quite possibly.

Better than 2012? Buckley for sure better now, Walter Walsh probably worse. Paul Murphy, TJ Reid, Richie Hogan all probably better now, Aylward may be better than Taggy, but couldn't say for definite at present. Eoin Larkin, Colin Fennelly (didn't play then), Richie Power not so, I would say. Holden better than JJ? Kieran Joyce better than Brian Hogan back then? Padraig Walsh ever better than Tommy? Michael Fennelly better now than he was then? Shane Prendergast better than Jackie Tyrell? Would Henry even now not hold his place on the current team?


KK are good and very good, but don't mythologize them!

savannahkat

MfMan wrote: »

KK are good and very good, but don't mythologize them!

Kilkenny people never do, we leave that to the papers and to the opposition.
The only previous game of consequence what-so-ever is this years leinster final. Have Galway improved by more than 7 points or have Kilkenny regressed by more than 7 points. The answer to both is no. Kilkenny will not have regressed one iota leaving Galway with the task of improving their leinster final performance by something bordering on 10 points if they are to win it. I predicted a Galway win v Tipp based solely on the fact that Tipp have (and have had) a soft underbelly for some time as had Cork this year. Kilkenny do not.
Galway would do very well to take heed of the lessons of the under 21 versus Limerick which was a dismal failure by a team boasting so many of the Galway senior team and panel but like Waterford dismiss it as being just under 21. A team with so many of the seniors should not have fallen to Limerick just as Waterford also with a bucketful of seniors should not have fallen to Clare.
The fact remains despite what the papers say, is that Joe canning is still the main danger. Keep him quite and not just from scoring but from allowing him time to distribute the ball at his east and Kilkenny will win and win well.

MfMan

savannahkat wrote: »

Kilkenny people never do, we leave that to the papers and to the opposition.
The only previous game of consequence what-so-ever is this years leinster final. Have Galway improved by more than 7 points or have Kilkenny regressed by more than 7 points. The answer to both is no. Kilkenny will not have regressed one iota leaving Galway with the task of improving their leinster final performance by something bordering on 10 points if they are to win it. I predicted a Galway win v Tipp based solely on the fact that Tipp have (and have had) a soft underbelly for some time as had Cork this year. Kilkenny do not.
Galway would do very well to take heed of the lessons of the under 21 versus Limerick which was a dismal failure by a team boasting so many of the Galway senior team and panel but like Waterford dismiss it as being just under 21. A team with so many of the seniors should not have fallen to Limerick just as Waterford also with a bucketful of seniors should not have fallen to Clare.
The fact remains despite what the papers say, is that Joe canning is still the main danger. Keep him quite and not just from scoring but from allowing him time to distribute the ball at his east and Kilkenny will win and win well.

Maybe Galway will have improved by 4 (very likely) and an injury-hit KK regressed by 4, also possible. You only have to win by 1.

Galway only had 3 seniors at U-21 v Limerick; Flynn played well, Whelan and Mannion not so. Galway were playing their first game v a team that had a good test in the Provincial competition. There's no substitute for games, helped Galway enormously the last day v Tipp.

Mountainlad

MfMan wrote: »

Better than last year, quite possibly.

Better than 2012? Buckley for sure better now, Walter Walsh probably worse. Paul Murphy, TJ Reid, Richie Hogan all probably better now, Aylward may be better than Taggy, but couldn't say for definite at present. Eoin Larkin, Colin Fennelly (didn't play then), Richie Power not so, I would say. Holden better than JJ? Kieran Joyce better than Brian Hogan back then? Padraig Walsh ever better than Tommy? Michael Fennelly better now than he was then? Shane Prendergast better than Jackie Tyrell? Would Henry even now not hold his place on the current team?


KK are good and very good, but don't mythologize them!

By yer own logic they are surely better. They got whupped by Galway and then struggled to draw with them, and then beat them at their ease playing 14 men.

Now if Galway are stronger this year than they were then, and yet were beaten very comfortably by Kilkenny already, how are Kilkenny not better than they were then? All this talk is what you'd expect if he hadn't played them already but he have. That doesn't mean the result has to be the exact same, but we have a standard to base our judgement from.

Tommy Walsh's wane wasn't something that happened over night, there was a decline their from 2012 (in my opinion he should have been man of the match in the 2011 all Ireland) the first signs in the Leinster final. Hogan was a very good hurler, but the previous year he was taken for 1-6. I'm sure he was still better than Joyce is now, but then remember Joyce was awarded man of the match in an all Ireland last year so I don't think he's a soft touch. Padraig Walsh should have been man of the match can in that game I think so I'm happy to say Id rather have him at 23/24 that Tommy Walsh at 28/29. If you're asking me who will have the greater legacy than that's Tommy emphatically but that is not the question.

Look Taggy was decent, and you can't take man of the match in an all Ireland from anyone but I think retiring when he did and in fact playing in the team and winning those all Ireland's has him remembered in a different light to how I would have thought of him playing to be honest. I'd rather have Aylward. The best I ever saw Power was last year, if he comes back from hiatus like that this year then ye are in trouble. Impossible to know what part he will play though. Yes, I would far rather him starting than Colin Fennelly or Walter Walsh if I was from Kilkenny.

It's grand to look at names, but it would be more worthwhile to actually analyze the performance as a team rather than just looking at how many all stars and all Ireland they had won up to that point.

I think you need to reconsider which of us "mythologizing" a Kilkenny team here.

MfMan

Mountainlad wrote: »

By yer own logic they are surely better. They got whupped by Galway and then struggled to draw with them, and then beat them at their ease playing 14 men.

Now if Galway are stronger this year than they were then, and yet were beaten very comfortably by Kilkenny already, how are Kilkenny not better than they were then? All this talk is what you'd expect if he hadn't played them already but he have. That doesn't mean the result has to be the exact same, but we have a standard to base our judgement from.

Tommy Walsh's wane wasn't something that happened over night, there was a decline their from 2012 (in my opinion he should have been man of the match in the 2011 all Ireland) the first signs in the Leinster final. Hogan was a very good hurler, but the previous year he was taken for 1-6. I'm sure he was still better than Joyce is now, but then remember Joyce was awarded man of the match in an all Ireland last year so I don't think he's a soft touch. Padraig Walsh should have been man of the match can in that game I think so I'm happy to say Id rather have him at 23/24 that Tommy Walsh at 28/29. If you're asking me who will have the greater legacy than that's Tommy emphatically but that is not the question.

Look Taggy was decent, and you can't take man of the match in an all Ireland from anyone but I think retiring when he did and in fact playing in the team and winning those all Ireland's has him remembered in a different light to how I would have thought of him playing to be honest. I'd rather have Aylward. The best I ever saw Power was last year, if he comes back from hiatus like that this year then ye are in trouble. Impossible to know what part he will play though. Yes, I would far rather him starting than Colin Fennelly or Walter Walsh if I was from Kilkenny.

It's grand to look at names, but it would be more worthwhile to actually analyze the performance as a team rather than just looking at how many all stars and all Ireland they had won up to that point.

I think you need to reconsider which of us "mythologizing" a Kilkenny team here.

The logic can cut both ways; KK beat us by a comfortable 10 in the 2012 replay, only by 7, (1 with final puck of game) in the LF. They hockeyed a strong Tipp' team in the '12 semi' only scraped past a flattering Limerick team in last year's semi'. Where does that leave them?

To repeat my main point, I think the '12 team was a lot stronger and more fearsome than the current team because a lot of the main players now, Paul Murphy, TJ, Richie Hogan, Eoin Larkin, were also available then, plus all the aforementioned retirees. Would even the most fervent KK fan disagree?

Of course this does not logically point to a Galway win or anything like it, there will be plenty of other variables to consider in the meantime also.

Mountainlad

Galway were 4 down when Donnellan was sent off, so not really comparable.

Assuming everyone stays fit, Kilkenny will have a stronger named 15 than the Leinster Final. I already said Kilkenny are better than they were last year, so I really don't understand why you mentioned the Limerick game that might as well have been played at sea.

I'm not even remotely a Kilkenny fan, though Everyone would have to respect and applaud what they've achieved. I'm pretty sure Kilkenny are better than they are then. More importantly, I think they'll improve on the Leinster Final (you mentioned injury hit, they are surely far less injury hit than that day?)

Galway could win but I think it requires Kilkenny underperforming and I just can't see it.

tbiggertycome

KK 2012 AI drawn match
D Herity,
P Murphy, JJ Delaney, J Tyrell,
T Walsh, B Hogan, K Joyce,
M Fennelly, R Hogan,
H Shefflin, TJ Reid, E Larkin,
C Fennelly, R Power, A Fogarty.
Subs: M Ruth for C Fennelly

Scorers
H Shefflin 0-12 (10f, 1 pen),
E Larkin,
TJ Reid 0-02 each,
A Fogarty,
R Power,
R Hogan.

KK 2012 AI replayed match
Davd Herrity,
Paul Murphy, JJ Delaney, Jackie Tyrell,
Tommy Walsh, Brian Hogan, Kieran Joyce,
Michael Fennelly, Richie Hogan,
Cillian Buckley, Richie Power, Eoin Larkin (capt),
TJ Reid, Walter Walsh, Henry Shefflin.

Scorers:
H Shefflin 0-09 (5f, 2 ’65),
W Walsh 1-03,
R Power 1-02,
C Fennelly 1-00,
R Hogan 0-03,
E Larkin,
TJ Reid,
C Buckley,
M Fennelly,
K Joyce (f) 0-01 each

2015 team
Eoin Murphy + Better than David Herity
P Murphy =/+ slightly better than he was in 2012
Joey Houlden - not as good as JJ in 2012 but no one is, a decent replacement
S Pendergast - same as Houlden not as good as Jackie but a decent replacement so far
P Walsh -/= about as good as Tommy was back then when he's on form
K Joyce -/= not as good as B Hogan that year so far but very very solid
C Buckley + huge improvement
M Fennelly = will be as good
C Fogarty =/+ an improvement as he does a huge amount of work and frees R Hogan to the forwards
C Fennelly -/= not as effective so far this year on the scoring front but working very hard
R Hogan + way better than 2012
W Walsh = I believe he's doing the perfect job for Cody while most people believe he's not scoring enough I don't think that's primarily his role this year
E Larkin + he is in great form and could cut loose if given any space
TJ Reid + way better than 2012
G Aylward - while playing really well you couldn't say he's as good as Shefflin yet

R Power, J Tyrrell on the bench, looks ok to me.

Kilkenny had a lot of niggly injuries in 2012 which manifested itself more obviously in 2013, in the 2012 Leinster final we had 5 key players all carrying knocks and strains. I'm not trying to make excuses from what i can remember JJ (can't remember what the injury was), Jackie (hamstring) Tommy (groin) Larkin (hamstring), I can't remember the 5th player. I don't think it would have made much difference that day the mood and form Galway were in but it may have contributed to the scoreline that day. It definitely had an impact as the year went on and I believe it's part of the reason most of the lads were so flat the first day and it needed Henry's super performance to drag them through by sheer force of will. The extra rest and the rejig of players allowed for an easier win the second day but it was only papering over the cracks that the team were shagged and the two games against Dublin in Portlaoise in 2013 were the flatest performances I've seen from this Kilkenny team, the energy was all gone. They raised it for Tipp but they were brushed aside by Cork and to be honest I meet a few of the players that night at the Bruce Springsteen concert and a lot of them actually looked relieved.

KK 2012 was a team runnin on empty the tank is much closer to full this time the players and reputations may not be the same but i think they are playing better than 2012.

Mountainlad

Anyone have a link to the Leinster Final in full?

tbiggertycome

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I don't doubt that the 2012 match will have a small bearing on the match more in the players psyche than anything else. But to suggest that Galway will win because this year is a reversal of 2012 is just plain stupid.
.

You're the only one saying that actually as I never did

I never said 2012 was relevant(why would I when we only have 5 odd starting from then )
I also never said because it went that way in 2012 I will happen in reverse.

What I said was there's nothing won in July and after hammering KK in 2012 it counted for little in September.

So with that in mind I wasn't too disheartened after this years LF as there was at least enough performance wise shown.

tbiggertycome

gilberto_eire wrote: »

The KK game was the only game that didn't resemble any of those. However we went from hammering them in the 2012 LF to failing in Sept so I wouldn't be remotely worried about that result in a few weeks.

Fair enough you didn't say that but from what you wrote above that was what I inferred (obviously incorrectly). I don't thinkt the Leinster final will have any bearing on this game either but it's the best reference point we have as to how the team's compare to each other. We obviously have to allow for Galways improvement when trying to judge the result but we also have to consider KK had a 5 week lay off and took a while to get to the pitch of the game against the most negative game plan ever used in hurling it's hard to break it down. I'm confident both teams will be at a much higher level than the LF and that there is a titanic battle ahead.

I said

This final will be hard fought and tough galways best and only way to win I feel is follow tipps example of the 10 final and keep driving at KK in waves of attacks crowd them at every turn another step up from the semi performance against tipp.
Galway have youth and speed on there side verses KKs experience and sheer doggedness to win.Galway have the momentum on there side with 6 games played vs KK 3 which will be crucial in who hits the ground running in the first 5 to 10 mins.
I can't wait for the final as long as it's a cracker but I think the man with the whistle will have a major bearing on the type of game we see,imo I don't think he do a good job for either team.

randd1

Just reading over the Internet forums in the last few weeks, and it's fair to say that once again, and I think it beggars belief, Kilkennys speed and age are where people keep saying that Kilkenny will be beaten.

I simply cannot fathom how intelligent hurling people still believe the "old legs/miles on the clock" arguments going around. It's never happened. Kilkenny have one of the fittest, if not the fittest, squad that the GAA has ever seen. They will not be run off the park, and they not only can cover the ground, but cover it at speed too, and have speed all over the park.

Where Galway will win this AI, and only where they will win it, is if they can match Kilkennys work rate and physicality, and still produce the skillful hurling on top of that.

The fact that Galway more than any side in Cody's reign have had the ability to beat Kilkenny when Kilkenny are hurling well is what makes it interesting. And when Galway get it right and are in the zone they are the side most like Kilkenny out there, physically powerful and intimidating, smart movement and massive work rate, and great skill to boot. Is those qualities that will beat Kilkenny, not running them.

I said

Match them physically is playing into there hands run at them like the drawn game last year is the way to get a result.

randd1

I said wrote: »

Match them physically is playing into there hands run at them like the drawn game last year is the way to get a result.

The drawn game, while a great spectacle, was over-rated, it was far too open a game. And for all if Tipp's bluster after the drawn final last year that they had run down Kiljenny, Tipp were down by 4 points with 5 minutes to go, and Kilkenny looked like AI champions. A few very uncharacteristic bad mistakes by Kilkenny (most notably Tyrrell and Murphy getting caught in possession when the spare man was available for a simple pass) in the back line nearly gifted Tipp an AI.

The next day out and Tipp had fooled themselves and thought all they had to do was run at Kilkenny. Kilkenny adjusted, tightened up the space and won the game well despite the 3 point difference, Tipp running was completely bottled up, especially in the second half, as the space wasn't there. Without the space, Tipp found themselves in a dogfight, and lost again.

You can't run Kilkenny, they have the fitness and enough pace in the side, and even if you have a few speedsters they will just tighten up and make it a dogfight. You just have to out hurl and out fight them to win, and you can't do that by running around them, Cody has been around the block long enough now not to allow that to happen.

I said

After coming from ten points down Galway didn't change tactics the second day, KK tightened the fullback the second day.Where as the first day galways had caused them problems as much as KK relaxed in the 2nd half.
Personally I don't think the LF is as bad a result for Galway as it was.Alright they didn't kick on from the goals when they got them but KK scored 1-4 that was gifted to them after Galway had won possession and lost it.There isn't as much between them as people think.
They are creating a lot of scoring chances and are now showing they have the bottle for a tight match so they won't lack confidence going into the final.

djPSB

tbiggertycome wrote: »

KK 2012 AI drawn match
D Herity,
P Murphy, JJ Delaney, J Tyrell,
T Walsh, B Hogan, K Joyce,
M Fennelly, R Hogan,
H Shefflin, TJ Reid, E Larkin,
C Fennelly, R Power, A Fogarty.
Subs: M Ruth for C Fennelly

Scorers
H Shefflin 0-12 (10f, 1 pen),
E Larkin,
TJ Reid 0-02 each,
A Fogarty,
R Power,
R Hogan.

KK 2012 AI replayed match
Davd Herrity,
Paul Murphy, JJ Delaney, Jackie Tyrell,
Tommy Walsh, Brian Hogan, Kieran Joyce,
Michael Fennelly, Richie Hogan,
Cillian Buckley, Richie Power, Eoin Larkin (capt),
TJ Reid, Walter Walsh, Henry Shefflin.

Scorers:
H Shefflin 0-09 (5f, 2 ’65),
W Walsh 1-03,
R Power 1-02,
C Fennelly 1-00,
R Hogan 0-03,
E Larkin,
TJ Reid,
C Buckley,
M Fennelly,
K Joyce (f) 0-01 each

2015 team
Eoin Murphy + Better than David Herity
P Murphy =/+ slightly better than he was in 2012
Joey Houlden - not as good as JJ in 2012 but no one is, a decent replacement
S Pendergast - same as Houlden not as good as Jackie but a decent replacement so far
P Walsh -/= about as good as Tommy was back then when he's on form
K Joyce -/= not as good as B Hogan that year so far but very very solid
C Buckley + huge improvement
M Fennelly = will be as good
C Fogarty =/+ an improvement as he does a huge amount of work and frees R Hogan to the forwards
C Fennelly -/= not as effective so far this year on the scoring front but working very hard
R Hogan + way better than 2012
W Walsh = I believe he's doing the perfect job for Cody while most people believe he's not scoring enough I don't think that's primarily his role this year
E Larkin + he is in great form and could cut loose if given any space
TJ Reid + way better than 2012
G Aylward - while playing really well you couldn't say he's as good as Shefflin yet

R Power, J Tyrrell on the bench, looks ok to me.

Kilkenny had a lot of niggly injuries in 2012 which manifested itself more obviously in 2013, in the 2012 Leinster final we had 5 key players all carrying knocks and strains. I'm not trying to make excuses from what i can remember JJ (can't remember what the injury was), Jackie (hamstring) Tommy (groin) Larkin (hamstring), I can't remember the 5th player. I don't think it would have made much difference that day the mood and form Galway were in but it may have contributed to the scoreline that day. It definitely had an impact as the year went on and I believe it's part of the reason most of the lads were so flat the first day and it needed Henry's super performance to drag them through by sheer force of will. The extra rest and the rejig of players allowed for an easier win the second day but it was only papering over the cracks that the team were shagged and the two games against Dublin in Portlaoise in 2013 were the flatest performances I've seen from this Kilkenny team, the energy was all gone. They raised it for Tipp but they were brushed aside by Cork and to be honest I meet a few of the players that night at the Bruce Springsteen concert and a lot of them actually looked relieved.

KK 2012 was a team runnin on empty the tank is much closer to full this time the players and reputations may not be the same but i think they are playing better than 2012.

On the flip side, I would say Galway are a better team than2012

2012 team: James Skehill; David Collins, Kevin Hynes, Fergal Moore; (capt), Niall Donoghue, Tony Og Regan, Johnny Coen; Andy Smith, Iarlaith Tannian; David Burke, Niall Burke, Cyril Donnellan; Damien Hayes, Joe Canning, James Regan

The likes of Tony Og, James Regan, Hynes, Niall Burke are a good bit inferior to the likes of the Mannions, Flynn, Daithi Burke.

To win an All Ireland after losing the experience of Shefflin, JJ and Tommy Walsh will be one of Cody's greatest achievements.

tbiggertycome

djPSB wrote: »

On the flip side, I would say Galway are a better team than2012

2012 team: James Skehill; David Collins, Kevin Hynes, Fergal Moore; (capt), Niall Donoghue, Tony Og Regan, Johnny Coen; Andy Smith, Iarlaith Tannian; David Burke, Niall Burke, Cyril Donnellan; Damien Hayes, Joe Canning, James Regan

The likes of Tony Og, James Regan, Hynes, Niall Burke are a good bit inferior to the likes of the Mannions, Flynn, Daithi Burke.

To win an All Ireland after losing the experience of Shefflin, JJ and Tommy Walsh will be one of Cody's greatest achievements.

While I don't disagree that Galway are better than they were in 2012 as it's undoubtedly true. The reason I wrote that post was because it was being claimed that Kilkenny were greatly weakened from 2012 with the loss of Shefflin, Delaney, Walsh, Hogan, Fogarty & Herity. I think we're a stronger team than 2012 Kilkenny. We're not a stronger team than Kilkenny from 06 to 09 but we'll likely never see a team that perfect for any county in our lifetimes.

I also think Kilkenny are better as 2012we were had a Kilkenny team out on it's feet, as 2013 showed after when we whimpered out of the championship finally against Cork. We've revitalised and rejuvenated with the young additions to the team as was proved by winning the AI last year. We now have new on field leaders who've blossemed with the extra responsibility and have started to replace the leaders we lost.

The likes of TJ, Richie Hogan, Buckley, Joyce, both Murphys, Conor Fogarty to go with some of the old leaders still around, like Jackie, M Fennelly, Larkin and R Power. Thats an awful amount of leaders for one team so if one lad doesn't do it another will pick up the baton and drive on the team. We obviously don't have a Shefflin who through sheer force of will and character dragged us back into the drawn final in 2012 but I think we've enough leaders through the team that have stepped up that the lack of a Shefflin type character shouldn't be an issue.

mickmackey1

Bump

PlayByTheRules

It'll be up to Richie Hogan to pull KK out of the fire if it starts like the 2012 drawn final.

Shefflin's performance that day was the probably the best individual sporting display I've seen in any sport. He was even masterminding frees.

Have a feeling that Ger Aylward lad is going to be the star of the show and man of the match. It's always a new young face with Kilkenny and he's not lacking confidence as a player, that's for sure!

Mountainlad

PlayByTheRules wrote: »

It'll be up to Richie Hogan to pull KK out of the fire if it starts like the 2012 drawn final.

Shefflin's performance that day was the probably the best individual sporting display I've seen in any sport. He was even masterminding frees.

Have a feeling that Ger Aylward lad is going to be the star of the show and man of the match. It's always a new young face with Kilkenny and he's not lacking confidence as a player, that's for sure!

How many times did he actually touch the ball?

I've seen him play way way better on so many different occasions.

MfMan

Mountainlad wrote: »

How many times did he actually touch the ball?

I've seen him play way way better on so many different occasions.

Inclined to agree with you; Shefflin was a rallying force for KK that day, but reading article below, 11/12 of his points were from placed balls and he had a number of misses. Contrast that with Canning's performance v Tipp, where people said he wasn't at his sharpest; 7 points from placed balls, 2 from play, 1 sideline, won ball and pass for Donnellan penalty, myriad hooks and tackles, blocked down pass at end that led to sideline and prevented Tipp from setting up a late attack, terrific scoring pass to Maloney at death. A fair contribution.

http://www.the42.ie/henry-shefflin-kilkenny-galway-2012-2289264-Sep2015/

savannahkat

MfMan wrote: »

Inclined to agree with you; Shefflin was a rallying force for KK that day, but reading article below, 11/12 of his points were from placed balls and he had a number of misses. Contrast that with Canning's performance v Tipp, where people said he wasn't at his sharpest; 7 points from placed balls, 2 from play, 1 sideline, won ball and pass for Donnellan penalty, myriad hooks and tackles, blocked down pass at end that led to sideline and prevented Tipp from setting up a late attack, terrific scoring pass to Maloney at death. A fair contribution.

http://www.the42.ie/henry-shefflin-kilkenny-galway-2012-2289264-Sep2015/

All very well but Joe has never done it in in an A.I Final, and there and only there is where it counts.