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407 no power and black smoke

  • 16-08-2015 11:41AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41


    Hi

    here is the story:

    I bought the car as a non runner, after towing the vehicle home I put a new battery on it and it started first time!!!! However when driving it had no power under 2500-3000 revs. After a few days of driving it lost all power and would not rev over 2000-2500 rpm, it did not even have enough power to pull away on a fairly flat road, I also got the "anti pollution fault" message.

    I plugged the diag machine in (Peugeot Planet) and it informed me that the DPF was blocked. I also suspected the Turbo was at fault, so as money is tight at the moment I replaced the turbo cartridge/CHRA, while I had the car in bits I removed the DPF and gave it a good clean with a pressure washer and Mr Muscle oven cleaner. After putting the car back together it still has no power, still won't rev over 2000 (occasionally revs to 3000-3300 when warm) and lots of black smoke. I managed to get it out of the yard and it won't go over 10mph.

    As there is black smoke I am assuming it's air flow related, live data informs me that the air-flow figure is about 20% down on what it should be so I removed all of the Air Flow system including the inlet manifold and thoroly cleaned it all and replaced the rubber seals where it go's into the cam cover.......... started the engine and still the same.

    The EGR vavle had been blanked off so I removed the blanking plate but this did nothing to solve the issue, if anything the air flow is registering upto 50% of expected.

    Does anyone have ant clues as to what I could try next?

    Kind Regards

    Nelix


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,525 ✭✭✭JohnBoy26


    1.6 hdi? More than likely that turbo is gone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    Yeah, sorry, I forgot to put the full car details in

    It's the 1.6 HDi 55 plate

    I have replaced the cartridge in the turbo and carried out the recommended task I.e. Remove sump replace pickup pipe, replace oil pipe and return pipe along with banjo bolt etc so unlikely that it is still the issue.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    To me its sounds like a dead turbo.

    What error codes is it throwing up after what you have done so far?

    P.S I love the Mr Muscle oven cleaner bit for the DPF!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    Hi

    No error codes at all even after the turbo cartridge/CHRA was replaced, I have live data at idle and at approx 3000rpm if it would help.

    Mr muscle works a treat 😄


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,246 ✭✭✭Dia1988


    Perhaps dirty or faulty injectors or injector deals?

    Is there a carbon build up around the injectors?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    Dia1988 wrote: »
    Perhaps dirty or faulty injectors or injector deals?

    Is there a carbon build up around the injectors?

    2 injectors were removed after slightly high results from a leak off test, one of them was gone the other was relaxed along with all seals.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭umop apisdn


    lots of black smoke ? sounds like an injector gone


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭Row


    What's the injector correction values on live data..?
    Is the vvt rod on the turbo pulling down when you start the engine..?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76 ✭✭ci985


    Think lots of black smoke is erg valve


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    Row wrote: »
    What's the injector correction values on live data..?
    Is the vvt rod on the turbo pulling down when you start the engine..?

    I'll post the Correction values this evening, the vvt rod is moving at startup.

    Might whip the other 2 injectors out and get them checked just as a matter of course.

    Keep the ideas coming folks and we will get to the bottom of this.

    Regards

    Nelixuk2003


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭mullingar


    Also post up the dpf differential pressure under load, the dpf could still be 99% blocked


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    mullingar wrote: »
    Also post up the dpf differential pressure under load, the dpf could still be 99% blocked

    If I remember correctly, at idle the Differential Pressure (DP) is 0mbar, at 3000rpm it was 8mbar.

    I'll confirm those numbers that I seem to remember noting these the last time I looked at the live data.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    Injector Flow Correction Data:

    At Idle
    Measured Injected Flow 7.06 mg/impulse
    Cyl 1 Flow Correction 0.08 mg/impulse
    Cyl 2 Flow Correction 0.03 mg/impulse
    Cyl 3 Flow Correction 0.03 mg/impulse
    Cyl 4 Flow Correction -0.02 mg/impulse

    At 2000rpm
    Measured Injected FLow 10.20 mg/impulse
    Cyl 1 Flow Correction 2.29 mg/impulse
    Cyl 2 Flow Correction -0.77 mg/impulse
    Cyl 3 Flow Correction -0.91 mg/impulse
    Cyl 4 Flow Correction -0.44 mg/impulse

    I have only just noticed the Inj 1 Valve so that is probably the cause of the smoke, it is also the injector that was replaced, I have checked and it is programmed correctly in PP

    I will take the injector back and see what they say.

    That possibly solves the excessive black smoke issue, I'm not optimistic that it will solve the boost issue though.

    I also don't seem to be able to display Live data in Graph format in PP. Just shows a black screen that says "Please Wait"

    Thanks

    Nelix


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭Row


    Injector Flow Correction Data:

    At Idle
    Measured Injected Flow 7.06 mg/impulse
    Cyl 1 Flow Correction 0.08 mg/impulse
    Cyl 2 Flow Correction 0.03 mg/impulse
    Cyl 3 Flow Correction 0.03 mg/impulse
    Cyl 4 Flow Correction -0.02 mg/impulse

    At 2000rpm
    Measured Injected FLow 10.20 mg/impulse
    Cyl 1 Flow Correction 2.29 mg/impulse
    Cyl 2 Flow Correction -0.77 mg/impulse
    Cyl 3 Flow Correction -0.91 mg/impulse
    Cyl 4 Flow Correction -0.44 mg/impulse

    I have only just noticed the Inj 1 Valve so that is probably the cause of the smoke, it is also the injector that was replaced, I have checked and it is programmed correctly in PP

    I will take the injector back and see what they say.

    That possibly solves the excessive black smoke issue, I'm not optimistic that it will solve the boost issue though.

    I also don't seem to be able to display Live data in Graph format in PP. Just shows a black screen that says "Please Wait"

    Thanks

    Nelix

    No 1 injector does look alittle out alright but nothing major,Its worth getting it checked out tho.
    Whats the condition of the Air filter like..?
    What mileage is on the engine..?
    Have you checked for cracked Turbo/intercooler hoses..?

    As for pp2000 certain versions didnt have working graphic parameter measurements....what version are you running..?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    PP Version is 23.25

    I will get the injector checked just to be sure.

    I have checked the pipework and cannot see anything untoward. If I remove the pipe from the top of the intercooler I can feel it blowing when revved, if I remove the bottom pipe and cover it with my hand the pipe sucks in/collapses, I am assuming this is the expected behaviour.

    the Air filter is not the cleanest and I will be replacing it in the next day or so along with the fuel filter.

    Mileage on the car is 157,400 give or take a few miles, a little high but I have owned Peugeots that are much higher without any problems.

    Thanks

    Nelix


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    I have managed to pull the xml file and txt file from PP containing the log data, I will try and get it into Excel and create a graph.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    OK, after much manipulation of the data from PP I have managed to format it in such a way that I can get it into Excel and create a graph/Chart. Unfortunately, I can only get 1 Y axis on it at the moment showing rpm, Is it possible to post files/images on this forum.

    The data appears to show that there is insufficient boost being measured compares to the reference values, not sure how this can be considering the Turbo has had a new CHRA/Cartridge fitted and has never been driven yet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭Row


    OK, after much manipulation of the data from PP I have managed to format it in such a way that I can get it into Excel and create a graph/Chart. Unfortunately, I can only get 1 Y axis on it at the moment showing rpm, Is it possible to post files/images on this forum.

    The data appears to show that there is insufficient boost being measured compares to the reference values, not sure how this can be considering the Turbo has had a new CHRA/Cartridge fitted and has never been driven yet.

    I have came across a few of these with the same low boost problems but they weren't smokey.
    The turbo electrovalves can give trouble on these or there you may have a vac leak somewhere.
    Did you adjust the vvt rod on the turbo at any stage..?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭mullingar


    +1 with that valve, I had an intermittent one, a right pain to trace and no smoke.

    @ op, what's your vacuum like? If it's good, I'd try disconnecting the air box and dpf to see if there is any airflow restriction and to see that the turbo is spinning correctly


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    I have checked all of the vacuum pipes with a vacuum guage and pump and they all seem to be holding vacuum fine, I also checked the Vacuum Solonoid on the back of the engine and that seemed fine too, think I might replace it anyway just to be sure.

    The VVT rod has not been adjusted by me at all. However, as I mentioned in the first post, this car was purchased as a non-runner so who knows what the previous owner has done.

    If the timing was out would it make it smokey?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    mullingar wrote: »

    @ op, what's your vacuum like? If it's good, I'd try disconnecting the air box and dpf to see if there is any airflow restriction and to see that the turbo is spinning correctly

    Vacuum seems good (see above post).

    I have previously removed the CAT and DPF from the turbo manifold and it still won't rev so no restriction in the exhaust/CAT/DPF and I could here the Turbo whistle when it was revved.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,338 ✭✭✭mullingar



    If the timing was out would it make it smokey?

    I would have thought yes.

    Its "reasonably" easy to check the timing on them. AFAIK with a 5mm & 8mm drill bit.

    Take off the plastic cam cover with a few 7mm screws, then take off the crank/water pump cover - you will need to remove the aux belt/pulley first (18mm bolt AFAIK). Once the crankshaft timing sprocket is exposed put the crank bolt back in and turn engine clockwise until the circular cut out on the crank sprocket wall is pointing at 12 o'clock and there should be a hole in the block for the 5mm bit to fit through all, before you do make sure the cam sprocket timing hole is approx 11 o'clock. If its @ 5 o'clock turn the crank pulley another 180 degrees clockwise. Rotate engine to fit the 5mm bit into the crank pulley and hole in engine block and then fit the 8mm bit into the Cam sprocket timing holes. If the 8mm bit fits straight through to the hole in the block, its timed.

    This doesn't check that the diesel pump is timed correctly which is probably hidden behind the engine mount. It also doesn't check the intake cam - there is a chain inside the cam shaft box to connect the exhaust cam to the intake cam. These normally get noisy before they cause trouble.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    Thanks, I'll check the timing at the weekend as the weather here is pants at the moment.

    I'm pretty sure the timing will be fine as it used to drive fine (minus the low-end boost) and without smoke prior to the DPF blocking, but it's worth checking non the less.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    OK, I have not checked the timing but as I mentioned I think this is OK but will check over the weekend just in case.

    I have fitted a new Mass Airflow Sensor and a new air filter and things are worse!!!!

    I did have a new fuel filter too but when I went to fit it they had supplied the wrong one.

    Anyway, once the MAS was fitted when started it ran fine ......... for about 20 seconds, then the revs started dropping to approx 600rpm then up to approx 900rpm constantly then after approx 10 seconds it stalls, after a few restarts it will eventually run with fluctuating revs but does not stall. Will only rev to approx 1500rpm now and still smoking, maybe a little more than before (that might just be me).

    I have taken some more live data starting from before I started the engine and got it into Excel again and linked to it below. I did notice that when the car stalled the measured air flow drops to Zero but the air flow setting still registers along with both Turbo measurements. I'm beginning that 'maybe' the previous owner has put a duff map on the ECU........ Don't suppose anyone who can re-map the ECU :)

    "partyknights.org.uk/Random/Peugeot DataWIP (After MAF Sensor).xlsx"

    (I can't post with a URL as I am a new member so cut and past the above into your browser and add the H T T P : / / to the beginning).

    Here's hoping we can resolve this.

    Thanks in advance for ANY and ALL help you people can/have provide/d


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    OK, I have not checked the timing but as I mentioned I think this is OK but will check over the weekend just in case.

    I have fitted a new Mass Airflow Sensor and a new air filter and things are worse!!!!

    I did have a new fuel filter too but when I went to fit it they had supplied the wrong one.

    Anyway, once the MAS was fitted when started it ran fine ......... for about 20 seconds, then the revs started dropping to approx 600rpm then up to approx 900rpm constantly (best seen towards the end of the graph) then after approx 10 seconds it stalls, after a few restarts it will eventually run with fluctuating revs but does not stall. Will only rev to approx 1500rpm now and still smoking, maybe a little more than before (that might just be me).

    I have taken some more live data starting from before I started the engine and got it into Excel again and linked to it below. I did notice that when the car stalled the measured air flow drops to Zero but the air flow setting still registers along with both Turbo measurements. I'm beginning that 'maybe' the previous owner has put a duff map on the ECU........ Don't suppose anyone who can re-map the ECU :)

    "partyknights.org.uk/Random/Peugeot DataWIP (After MAF Sensor).xlsx"

    (I can't post with a URL as I am a new member so cut and past the above into your browser and add the H T T P : / / to the beginning).

    Here's hoping we can resolve this.

    Thanks in advance for ANY and ALL help you people can/have provide/d


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    OK, I have not checked the timing but as I mentioned I think this is OK but will check over the weekend just in case.

    I have fitted a new Mass Airflow Sensor and a new air filter and things are worse!!!!

    I did have a new fuel filter too but when I went to fit it they had supplied the wrong one.

    Anyway, once the MAS was fitted when started it ran fine ......... for about 20 seconds, then the revs started dropping to approx 600rpm then up to approx 900rpm constantly (best seen towards the end of the graph) then after approx 10 seconds it stalls, after a few restarts it will eventually run with fluctuating revs but does not stall. Will only rev to approx 1500rpm now and still smoking, maybe a little more than before (that might just be me).

    One thing I did notice, when the revs get to the 900rpm mark a sound similar to a dump valve can be heard, not nearly as loud, infact it can only just be heard when sitting in the car, after investigating it seems to be coming from the air filter housing area.

    I have taken some more live data starting from before I started the engine and got it into Excel again and linked to it below. I did notice that when the car stalled the measured air flow drops to Zero but the air flow setting still registers along with both Turbo measurements. I'm beginning that 'maybe' the previous owner has put a duff map on the ECU........ Don't suppose anyone who can re-map the ECU :)

    "partyknights.org.uk/Random/Peugeot DataWIP (After MAF Sensor).xlsx"

    (I can't post with a URL as I am a new member so cut and paste the above into your browser and add the H T T P : / / to the beginning).

    Here's hoping we can resolve this.

    Thanks in advance for ANY and ALL help you people can/have provide/d


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    Sorry for the duplicate posts but when I try and edit the post it just posts it as a new reply and I can't delete them ????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,298 ✭✭✭martinr5232


    I had one like this a couple of years ago almost sure it was an egr valve that sorted it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    OK, So I got the correct Fuel Filter and fitted it, plugged PP in and started logging data before the car was started.

    Looking at the data here is the timeline for what happened:

    Started car and it was running fine, revved it a few times (12 secs, 20 secs and 30 secs) then it idled fine and the Measured Turbo pressure and Measured Air Flow readings seem to look as I would expect until approx 51 secs when it started fluctuating before stalling (69 secs).

    Started it again and just let it idle and stalled again (91 secs). Started it again with the MAF unplugged and it idled fine (100 secs to 114 secs) plugged it back in and after approx 10-15 (132 secs) and it started fluctuating again and stalled a couple of times. Started it again at 157 secs and tickled the accelorator to keep it running, tried revving and it revved once but wouldn't go over 1500rpm and the last 2 tries at revving, took my foot off the accelorator at 217 secs and it ran pants for a while then stalled again.

    The File with the graph in can be found here:

    ht tp://partyknights.org.uk/Random/Car Data/Peugeot After Fuel Filter.xlsx

    (Remove the space in the ht tp bit)

    Cheers


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 Nelixuk2003


    I've added measurements for the Turbo Pressure Solonoid to this graph as well but it does not seem to do much.


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