Boardman on how to overtake cyclists

rp

Handy little explanation, UK rules, but close enough(*) to ours:
https://youtu.be/o9pmw2ckQSU

(* see here for description of Irish law: http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/dangerous-overtaking-cyclists-driver)

Beasty

That's not just a Chris Boardman video - looking at the credits British Cycling are certainly involved

Maybe, following feedback from members last year, CI should be a little more proactive on the lobbying front, and perhaps look for a Boardman-like figure to help promote cycling and educate the wider population in the way he does in Britain (it would certainly not be difficult to improve on some of the RSAs "efforts")

Slydice

rp wrote: »

(* see here for description of Irish law: http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/dangerous-overtaking-cyclists-driver)

Your like doesn't work cos of the curly bracket at the end. Working link:
http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/dangerous-overtaking-cyclists-driver

conkennedy

Thanks for that link, had a dangerous overtake this afternoon and was thinking about reporting it to the Guards. Have sports camera footage. I was overtaken on the approach to a pinch point and on a single white line at speed. The driver was less than an handlebar with away from my right hand. Scary to say the least.

conkennedy

Anywhoo, I went to the local Garda Station this evening and reported what happened. The Garda said that for it to be an offense it would need to have been witnessed by a Garda - or words to that effect.

I explained what happened, where it happened and gave him the vehicle reg no and description. He didn't want to see the video and didn't take my details... He said he'd contact the driver and take it from there, he said there may not be charges brought. I said I would be more than happy with a warning and a 'be more careful' phone call, but these incidents need to be reported and recorded

ThisRegard

Is that nonsense about it having to be witnessed by a garda?

KaseLieberKase

If I break the law but a Garda didn't witness it, was it legal?

conkennedy

I'm going to give it till Friday and call back to see if there was a follow up

conkennedy

Here's the vid. The first guy overtook at safe distance, 4 seconds later the Merc shoots by, even though I waved with my right hand to slow down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOJZIIjrljI

Beasty

KaseLieberKase wrote: »

If I break the law but a Garda didn't witness it, was it legal?

No, but the Gardaí will (quite rightly in my view) devote their limited resources based on the perceived severity of the alleged offence and the extent/nature of evidence they are presented with (including 3rd party witnesses).

Lusk_Doyle

Ask that Garda if a tree falls in the forest but nobody is there does it still make a sound. Twat.

JBokeh

ThisRegard wrote: »

Is that nonsense about it having to be witnessed by a garda?

They can't do it on a persons word alone, or every petty dispute will result in the Gards being phoned and wild accusations being thrown about the other party, and it will result in a prosecution. There is the route of making it all formal, with statements and eventually taking it to court, but it is a gigantic waste of time I'd say, and for a diminishing return, where the offender will get told he is a very naughty boy, and sent on his way

I prefer the approach this video has compared to the RSA one, they show the car waiting behind the group until the road markings stop being solid and the road straightens out a bit, and then the over take, which is done at a real world speed.
The RSA one a man in a car comes up on a group, on the straightest road in Europe, fires on the indicator, and proceeds to potter up the other side of the road 5km/h faster than the group, and IMO i question the distance between the outside bike and his car, though it has been a while since i've seen it.

conkennedy

JBokeh wrote: »

They can't do it on a persons word alone, or every petty dispute will result in the Gards being phoned and wild accusations being thrown about the other party, and it will result in a prosecution. There is the route of making it all formal, with statements and eventually taking it to court, but it is a gigantic waste of time I'd say, and for a diminishing return, where the offender will get told he is a very naughty boy, and sent on his way

Absolutely, although the Guard didn't explain it, I thought something similar. As I said, I just wanted it noted and I'd be happy with a phone call telling the driver off. I thought it was odd he didn't want to see the video or record my details. Know I would rather get a phone call than penalty points and a fine!

conkennedy

Also, 20 minutes later, I had to deal with this gobdaw on his phone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mon2YghyLNU

They were all out today!

rp

The problem with these incidents is dangerous overtaking seems to be considered by the Guards as a 'dead regulation', as that Cycling Ireland article I linked calls it. If there is zero policing of such behavior, it is taken as tacit agreement that it is fine to drive that way.
Perhaps we need an Urgenda-style campaign to sue the government for not protecting it's citizens?

Leroy42

JBokeh wrote: »

They can't do it on a persons word alone,

Ah, he had video evidence, not exactly he said/she said!

A member of the public brings a potential driving offence to the Garda and their response is to tell you to forget it?? And people think this is acceptable?

I assume the Garada in question was at the time busy with an undercover operation, possible infiltrating ISIS!

O would have at least expected the garda to look a the video and then decide whether or not this was an offence. Seems he believe he already knows what happened and made a judgement call without any evidence whatsoever.

I'm all so garda discretion, but I would have thought they needed to at least have some idea what happened.

In terms of the actual video, it doesn't seem that close to me. Closer than you would wish, and certainly potential for an accident, but based on the video I wouldn't see that there is much to get overall excited about

conkennedy

Leroy42 wrote: »

In terms of the actual video, it doesn't seem that close to me. Closer than you would wish, and certainly potential for an accident, but based on the video I wouldn't see that there is much to get overall excited about

The driver was less than a handlebar width away from my right hand. The camera uses a wide angle, so distance may look optically further away than in reality.

robissimo

conkennedy wrote: »

Here's the vid. The first guy overtook at safe distance, 4 seconds later the Merc shoots by, even though I waved with my right hand to slow down.

I know this road very well; I use it as both a cyclist and a driver.

It is very irritating to come across cyclists who refuse to use the perfectly good cycle path that's along the entire length of that road. It's off the road so cars can't park in it and there's a wide footpath alongside it so plenty of room for both pedestrians and cyclists.

Not excusing the dangerous overtaking manoeuvre but when I'm driving on that road and I'm crawling behind a cyclist I do wonder why they don't bother with the cycle path as it's quite a narrow road.

I'm very glad that you were unhurt though.

Hmmzis

robissimo wrote: »

I know this road very well; I use it as both a cyclist and a driver.

It is very irritating to come across cyclists who refuse to use the perfectly good cycle path that's along the entire length of that road. It's off the road so cars can't park in it and there's a wide footpath alongside it so plenty of room for both pedestrians and cyclists.

Not excusing the dangerous overtaking manoeuvre but when I'm driving on that road and I'm crawling behind a cyclist I do wonder why they don't bother with the cycle path as it's quite a narrow road.

I'm very glad that you were unhurt though.

Victim blaming much?! If you get so easily irritated when driving a car then just stick to the bike. Other people will live longer and you'll be a lot happier (which would also increase your life expectancy).

tomasrojo

robissimo wrote: »

perfectly good cycle path

I don't know this road or its adjacent cycle facility, but I'm very familiar with this phrase (so very, very familiar), and I've never found any cycle facility so described to be even adequate.

Apologies if this facility is an exception.

tomasrojo

Had a quick look at the video. It looks as if you lose right of way and have to stop for every side road and look in three directions before proceeding. Not "perfectly good". "Standard crap" more like it.

ThisRegard

JBokeh wrote: »

They can't do it on a persons word alone,

He was presented with a video with the incident which he didn't want to know about.

And a persons word alone is the basis for starting practically every garda investigation, gardai don't witness all crimes. They then decide if there's anything worth following up on.

I can understand the limited resources but there was video evidence, and members here have followed up dangerous driving when on their bikes to the gardai and the gardai have followed it up based on their words alone.

And a persons word is the basis for Traffic Watch.

cdaly_

There's also the option of trying to identify the insurer of the vehicle and presenting them with the evidence. They might find that the driver constitutes an increased risk at renewal time.

conkennedy

robissimo wrote: »

I know this road very well; I use it as both a cyclist and a driver.

Yes, It's Diswellstown Road in Dublin 15.

robissimo wrote: »

It is very irritating to come across cyclists who refuse to use the perfectly good cycle path that's along the entire length of that road. It's off the road so cars can't park in it and there's a wide footpath alongside it so plenty of room for both pedestrians and cyclists.

If you're familiar with the road, you'll also know the 'cycle path' is also populated by young children, pram-pushers, pedestrians, dog walkers and joggers. As was the case yesterday.

Therefore more hazardous than using the road.

Like you I'm also a motorist and I pay Motortax for 2 vehicles, and as a tax payer, like everyone else here, I pay for the road and I am entitled to use the road like another vehicle.

robissimo wrote: »

I'm very glad that you were unhurt though.

Cheers

Alanstrainor

Interesting that the video footage was completely ignored by the gardai, I wonder if posting it to their twitter would see a different response?

Had an extremely dangerous overtake in the last 2 weeks. Was cycling down Percy Place heading towards Baggot Street, and was taking a primary position due to it being a narrow road, parked cars either side and road works. Had a car attempt to pass with a fingers width between me and his mirror, he had an equally small amount of room on his other side. He did pass, and a shouting match ensued which I wasn't too proud of. But the adrenaline was pumping and I was pissed. Have two cameras on my bike so plenty of footage. I wonder how that would be taken by Gardai...

conkennedy

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Interesting that the video footage was completely ignored by the gardai, I wonder if posting it to their twitter would see a different response?

I don't know... was thinking about it, but I'll probably leave it and follow up with the Gardai first. I made the point that these things need to be recorded because they are a real issue and if data is not collected nothing can be done about raising awareness.

As they say Staying Alive at 1.5 etc.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Have two cameras on my bike so plenty of footage. I wonder how that would be taken by Gardai...

I think it's the only way, if we keep reporting incidents they'll have to take notice.

I was also prepared with the footage on a USB stick!

conkennedy

Also is it just me or has there been an increase in dangerous overtakes recently? I've certainly had more than my fair share in the past few months and I'm only out 2-3 times a week. I can't imagine what a city-centre commute would be like!

Alanstrainor

conkennedy wrote: »

I
I think it's the only way, if we keep reporting incidents they'll have to take notice.

I was also prepared with the footage on a USB stick!

Go in with it on your iPad and ready to play.

That being said, I just don't think I'm bothered. 99% of motorists are grand enough, not too bothered by the idiots most of the time. Had he hit me it would be a different story.

conkennedy

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Go in with it on your iPad and ready to play.

I did!

Alanstrainor wrote: »

That being said...99% of motorists are grand enough, not too bothered by the idiots most of the time. Had he hit me it would be a different story.

Exactly, I'd go as far as to say 99.9% of motorists are respectable drivers.

I was hit about a year ago, motorist pulled out on a roundabout when I had right of way... then decided to stop in the roundabout leaving me nowhere to go but into the side of their car. Took a bad knock to the head, bruised coccyx and a barsteward of a concussion. missing about 30mins of memory. The link is on a previous Boards thread.

Whet to the same Garda station to report the incident later that day, and the (different) Garda was disinterested to say the least. I then showed him the clip. Suddenly the attitude was different.

So yeah, if I was nudged off the road I probably would have pressed the point further.

hardCopy

robissimo wrote: »

I know this road very well; I use it as both a cyclist and a driver.

It is very irritating to come across cyclists who refuse to use the perfectly good cycle path that's along the entire length of that road. It's off the road so cars can't park in it and there's a wide footpath alongside it so plenty of room for both pedestrians and cyclists.

Not excusing the dangerous overtaking manoeuvre but when I'm driving on that road and I'm crawling behind a cyclist I do wonder why they don't bother with the cycle path as it's quite a narrow road.

I'm very glad that you were unhurt though.

I also know it extremely well and it's full of pedestrians and dogs. You also have to stop and yield to cars at every cul de sac entrance.

I walk my dog on it regularly but keep to the road when I'm on my bike.

I have yet to see a single practical cycle track built by Fingal County Council.

endacl

conkennedy wrote: »

Here's the vid. The first guy overtook at safe distance, 4 seconds later the Merc shoots by, even though I waved with my right hand to slow down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOJZIIjrljI

You were pretty much matching his speed after the manoeuvre. Why did he need to overtake at all?!?

ThisRegard

Just watched your vid and realise it was Dublin 15 so you probably went to Blanch garda station ? If so, they're pretty up to their ears and under resourced, but I still think it should have been watched. Years ago this group of lads started up a little graffiti group and tagged everywhere in the area, houses included. A group of us tracked them down and with a bit of research found their online profiles which included photos of them standing beside their artwork and boasting about who they were. Got the run around from the gardai, they told us we have to catch them in action and ring them while they were doing it FFS. A bit of persistence, well hassle more likely, and eventually they were dealt with by the community garda and they (most likely parents) were made paid for the cleaning.

Alanstrainor

endacl wrote: »

You were pretty much matching his speed after the manoeuvre. Why did he need to overtake at all?!?

Must overtake mentality at play there. I see it all the time. It's dangerous and stupid, and often has no logic applied. It's simply a case of; see cyclist, must overtake cyclist at all costs.

lennymc

maybe try using traffic watch to report it

http://garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=111&Lang=1

arybvtcw0eolkf

robissimo wrote: »

I know this road very well; I use it as both a cyclist and a driver.

It is very irritating to come across cyclists who refuse to use the perfectly good cycle path that's along the entire length of that road

In another one of his video's he ignores a cycle path to take him around a round-about (I've done this too), but then he actually releases his brake/bars causing him to purposely collide with a vehicle!.. Madness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3saY6smzAc

Expect the unexpected, and maintain control of your bike at all times.

conkennedy

I had the right of way. Rules of the road clearly state you yield to ALL traffic already on the roundabout, as I was. I had already entered the roundabout before the motorist approached the junction. Therefore, right of way should be given.

There is NO cycle path from my direction to the roundabout. You are not obliged to use cycle path.

If the motorist had stopped - even late, I could have safely made it around the front of the car, if the motorist had floored it I could have safely made it round the back. They did neither and coasted out into my path leaving me no where to go.

The Garda and my solicitor said everything I did was 'textbook' perfect rules of the road.

Victim blame much?

lennymc

there is a school of thought (that I subscribe to) that every accident is avoidable by better actions on your part, regardless of who is in the right or who is in the wrong. I think Maikakomi's point was, had you not gesticulated, and had you anticipated that the car was going on to the roundabout, you probably would have been able to stop safely and/or avoid the collision. I do tend to agree with him on that point, but also agree with you on the point that the driver was in the wrong. Had your actions been different, your outcome would have been different (the car driver would still have been in the wrong, but you wouldnt have collided)

I am not victim blaming, or attributing blame, but merely stating that accidents can be avoided by different actions of the 'victim'

Maikakomi rides motorbikes, as do I, and that certainly heightens your awareness to an awful lot more hazards on the roads.

Leroy42

Hold on now a minute.

Is that video put up by Maikakomi supposed to in some way show the cyclists in the wrong or should have done something different?

The driver left the scene, wither they didn't notice the bang on the car or simply didn't care.

Yes, if he had slammed on the brakes it MIGHT have been avoided, but he made an instant decision when he was put in danger. How, in any sane persons mind, can his lack of action (your point) be blamed for this?

I bet he wished he had slammed on the brakes too, but hindsight is great. One thing we know for certain, if the car driver was paying attention and actually following the rules of the road he WOULD NOT have crashed.

Leroy42

lennymc wrote: »

Maikakomi rides motorbikes, as do I, and that certainly heightens your awareness to an awful lot more hazards on the roads.

Yet motorbikes continue to be a very at risk part of the traffic. Are you saying that it is simply because most motorbikes riders aren't good enough and should be better at avoiding crashes?

challengemaster

conkennedy wrote: »

Here's the vid. The first guy overtook at safe distance, 4 seconds later the Merc shoots by, even though I waved with my right hand to slow down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOJZIIjrljI

That's funny, it's blatantly obvious from your footage that the merc is moving slower than the jeep.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Must overtake mentality at play there. I see it all the time. It's dangerous and stupid, and often has no logic applied. It's simply a case of; see cyclist, must overtake cyclist at all costs.

Have a look again, particularly the shadows. Yer man starts belting it to try catch up with the merc. Presumably to shout more obscenities at him. Before that the cyclist is definitely slower.

conkennedy

lennymc wrote: »

there is a school of thought (that I subscribe to) that every accident is avoidable

Agreed. This was not avoidable. GPS data shows I was breaking, and braked hard at the 9'OClock. My actions show an attempt to go around the rear of the motorist, but they stopped in my path, something beyond my control which caused the accident.

lennymc wrote: »

Maikakomi rides motorbikes, as do I, and that certainly heightens your awareness to an awful lot more hazards on the roads.

And motor bikes have much more efficient braking systems than pushbikes

Leroy42 wrote: »

Hold on now a minute.
Is that video put up by Maikakomi supposed to in some way show the cyclists in the wrong or should have done something different?

The video is mine.

Leroy42 wrote: »

The driver left the scene, wither they didn't notice the bang on the car or simply didn't care.

The driver does come back... a few minutes later. I don't remember it, the camera captured it. But the guards insisted they left the scene, I insisted they just cleared the roundabout. The guards said they left me more vulnerable on the road. A biker mate suggested they thought about driving off but as I didn't get up straight away their conscience kicked in... perhaps. I'd like to think better of the person.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, if he had slammed on the brakes it MIGHT have been avoided, but he made an instant decision when he was put in danger.

Was breaking, and breaking hard!

Leroy42 wrote: »

. One thing we know for certain, if the car driver was paying attention and actually following the rules of the road he WOULD NOT have crashed.

Agreed. In the full res video, you can see them looking straight at me, just before the impact!

challengemaster wrote: »

That's funny, it's blatantly obvious from your footage that the merc is moving slower than the jeep.

The Jeep over took on a broken white line and gave decent space and was well ahead of the oncoming pinch point.

lennymc

Leroy42 wrote: »

Hold on now a minute.

Is that video put up by Maikakomi supposed to in some way show the cyclists in the wrong or should have done something different?

The driver left the scene, wither they didn't notice the bang on the car or simply didn't care.

Yes, if he had slammed on the brakes it MIGHT have been avoided, but he made an instant decision when he was put in danger. How, in any sane persons mind, can his lack of action (your point) be blamed for this?

I bet he wished he had slammed on the brakes too, but hindsight is great. One thing we know for certain, if the car driver was paying attention and actually following the rules of the road he WOULD NOT have crashed.

I'm not blaming anyone. I am saying that by the rider reacting differently that situation would have had a very different outcome and gone from a collision to a near miss. The car would have still been in the wrong, but instead of colliding, the rider could have avoided the car.

I never disputed that the car driver was in the wrong, or that the rider had right of way.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yet motorbikes continue to be a very at risk part of the traffic. Are you saying that it is simply because most motorbikes riders aren't good enough and should be better at avoiding crashes?

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

I'm coming at this from the viewpoint of if I am in a crash, that is 100% someone else's fault, and I die, I end up dead and wont be too concerned about liability or fault wont really matter to me. If there is anything I can do to make me a better rider (bike or motorbike) to avoid that then I will do it. If I can increase my skills to the point that I can anticipate road users actions then I greatly increase my chances of not dieing on the bike.

I crashed my motorbike after a car reversed out in front of me. I was riding down a main road he reversed out of a parking spot. I was 100% in the right. I still suffer shoulder pain from that crash. I grabbed my brakes and the front of the bike slid from under me. Had I not grabbed my brakes and reacted differently I would have had a near miss and now have no shoulder pain. Had I anticipated better, I would have given more room when passing places that cars can reverse from and increased my observation of what was up ahead both on and off road, so as to avoid the need to have to react to other road users completely. It's a skill (imho) that can be developed with practice.

One of the first things they teach you when riding a motorbike is that everyone is out to kill you. It's a good lesson

JBokeh

Maikakomi was saying that by the same way it was his fault that he got a close pass according to robissimo, that it was also his fault that he went into the side of the car that pulled out on him.

Wouldn't have taken my hands off the brakes either, but I usually don't brake if I pull out on roundabouts at the last minute either, it's very easy to be an armchair soccer coach after the match

In my earlier post I didn't know that a video link was put up because I started typing before it was posted,

conkennedy

lennymc wrote: »

I'm not blaming anyone

Seem like your comments on the youtube videos are...

arybvtcw0eolkf

conkennedy wrote: »

And motor bikes have much more efficient braking systems than pushbikes

Even the best brakes in the world are useless when you take your hands (or feet) off them, as you done in that video.

I suspect had you not been armed with a GoPro you'd have easily avoided this accident instead of going out of your way to put yourself in danger to prove someone else wrong.

You hit the rear offside panal, a dab on the brakes and that car would have been well clear you.. It isn't like it suddenly appeared and left you no time or space to take evasive action ~ you'd lots of time to react & avoid that accident.

Moflojo

conkennedy wrote: »

Was breaking, and breaking hard!

I'm watching your brake levers closely in the video as they're both visible in the frame.
As you're coming around the roundabout (0.28) you dab the right brake when you first see the car encroaching.
You then lift your right hand off the bars to gesture at the car.
It is only when you put your right hand back down that you slam hard on both brake levers; the left brake lever is unused while your right hand is in the air.
By my estimate you had about one and a half seconds of braking time from when you first saw the danger (dabbed the brake and gestured) until the collision with the car occurred, and you used less than half a second of that time to actually brake.

Obviously the car was in the wrong and should not have encroached upon the roundabout, but I humbly suggest that you prioritise self-preservation over gesturing to other road users in future.

lennymc

conkennedy wrote: »

Seem like your comments on the youtube videos are...

well that was not my intention. I was saying that by increasing your anticipation skills, and not removing your hands from the bars, that collision could have very easily been a near miss. I also expressly stated that the car was obviously 100% in the wrong, and that you had right of way. I gave an example of an accident I had were the other road user was 100% in the wrong, but, had my actions been different I could have avoided the accident. I also gave the reasons why I think that I have a responsibility to improve my observation and anticipation skills, (these improvements have helped me avoid quite a few accidents) and learn from my actions.

Again, It was not my intention to blame you, but rather highlight the fact that all road users can do a lot to avoid accidents regardless of who was in the right or the wrong.

lennymc

conkennedy wrote: »

Here's the vid. The first guy overtook at safe distance, 4 seconds later the Merc shoots by, even though I waved with my right hand to slow down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOJZIIjrljI

@ conkennedy - I just watched this video and see a comment from a "Lenny" - I can assure you that is not me.

conkennedy

lennymc wrote: »

@ conkennedy - I just watched this video and see a comment from a "Lenny" - I can assure you that is not me.

No trouble, my misunderstanding!

conkennedy

Moflojo wrote: »

Obviously the car was in the wrong and should not have encroached upon the roundabout

precisely!

Moflojo wrote: »

but I humbly suggest that you prioritise self-preservation over gesturing to other road users in future.

Oh! Believe my I do. Cycling since I was 13, driving since 18. That was the one and only accident I've been in and I'd like to keep it that way, whether 2 or 4 wheels!

arybvtcw0eolkf

conkennedy wrote: »

Oh! Believe my I do. Cycling since I was 13, driving since 18. That was the one and only accident I've been in and I'd like to keep it that way, whether 2 or 4 wheels!

No its not, you even fall cycling in straight lines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A5r4eWBqNw