Floyd's top five

Deiseboy01

What do we think of Floyd's top five?

Himself
Duran
Sweet Pea
JCC
Ali

Sugar Ray not placed........

boxer.fan

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

What do we think of Floyd's top five?

Himself
Duran
Sweet Pea
JCC
Ali

Sugar Ray not placed........

Take himself outta the mix & a case can be made for the rest

Talib Fiasco

Sweet Pete is probably my favourite boxer of all time but he isn't even top 25 worthy nevermind top 5. I respect Floyd for putting him there, basically the guy he mirrored. I also give him a lot of respect for having Duran there.

megadodge

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Sweet Pete is probably my favourite boxer of all time but he isn't even top 25 worthy nevermind top 5. I respect Floyd for putting him there, basically the guy he mirrored. I also give him a lot of respect for having Duran there.

I strongly disagree. And I always cheered against him.

I'm not saying he's the very best, but he would be a nightmare for most fighters in history.

Talib Fiasco

megadodge wrote: »

I strongly disagree. And I always cheered against him.

I'm not saying he's the very best, but he would be a nightmare for most fighters in history.

Anyone in the top 50, hell even top 75 would be a nightmare for nearly anyone tbh, I wasn't knocking Pea at all. This is all time we're talking about. Pea certainly wasn't the greatest welter, he's one of the greatest lightweights for sure...but not a Duran level lightweight, a guy who might just squeeze into my top 10, just. Pea is/was great....he's my favourite boxer, but I'd struggle to put him in a top 30

megadodge

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Anyone in the top 50, hell even top 75 would be a nightmare for nearly anyone tbh, I wasn't knocking Pea at all. This is all time we're talking about. Pea certainly wasn't the greatest welter, he's one of the greatest lightweights for sure...but not a Duran level lightweight, a guy who might just squeeze into my top 10, just. Pea is/was great....he's my favourite boxer, but I'd struggle to put him in a top 30

At lightweight I'd have Duran no. 1, but not by much. Whitaker and Mayweather pretty much level in second. Actually a fight between them would be a doozy for Punch stats - no punches landed in any round!!

menoscemo

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Sweet Pete is probably my favourite boxer of all time but he isn't even top 25 worthy nevermind top 5. I respect Floyd for putting him there, basically the guy he mirrored. I also give him a lot of respect for having Duran there.

I saw the video of this earlier; it's not particularly his own top 5, he was only given a list of 10 to chose from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyPzXEFNXsw

The 5 He left out were the two sugar Rays, Henry Armstrong, Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano.

If you replace Mayweather with SRR, his choices are not outrageous given what he has to choose from.

walshb

No Berto?

Talib Fiasco

Ah that's a little better and makes a bit more sense....fair play to Floyd though, Pea did beat Chavez, no doubt in my mind, Floyd is spot on there. I also thought he beat Oscar too, closer fight but I thought he still won that. That video is awkward as hell though, between the Spanish lads chirping in, Floyd spoofing as usual and this sense going around as Floyd looks at the board that Floyd cannot even read the names of the guys there :pac:

Panic E

So do people here actually believe that Mayweather belongs in any ATG top 5 or what?

Talib Fiasco

I'd probably stick Floyd somewhere around 30 I would say...maybe even top 25. He had potential to be top 10 though even top 5. He can still improve on that, but only a fight with someone like Andre Ward would do that.

Deiseboy01

I didn't realise he only had a hand picked list to choose from.

Even at that Roy JJ is a startling omission imo.

Deiseboy01

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

I'd probably stick Floyd somewhere around 30 I would say...maybe even top 25. He had potential to be top 10 though even top 5. He can still improve on that, but only a fight with someone like Andre Ward would do that.

Andre Ward Talib?

walshb

Panic E wrote: »

So do people here actually believe that Mayweather belongs in any ATG top 5 or what?

I don't. His comp and activity level just don't do it for me, as well as some of his performances against very ordinary opponents. Take Guerrero and Maidana. How long would either of those lads have lasted against Hearns or Leonard? Yet, Floyd ducked and dived and swiped his way to victories against them. Add in the clearly smaller Manny as well.

Talented and skilled, no doubt, but not at the top in the ATG debate. No way. I guess it all depends on how you rank fighters. Also, what weight do you assess him at? At WW he is not in the running to be called a top 5 ATG fighter. . I would say at 130-140 he was at his peak. Top ten at these weights. But, overall ATG across the board he doesn't rate high.

boxer.fan

The trouble with ATG lists is that everyone has different criteria for choosing their lists. If somebody on here had the time & interest it might be an idea to select a number of criteria & open a thread where people could post their ATG selection on that basis. I can't remember if that has been done here before.

walshb

boxer.fan wrote: »

The trouble with ATG lists is that everyone has different criteria for choosing their lists. If somebody on here had the time & interest it might be an idea to select a number of criteria & open a thread where people could post their ATG selection on that basis. I can't remember if that has been done here before.

So true. Example: I would place a lot of emphasis on how a great fighter puts together his punches. Floyd for me ranks low on this. I would rate many higher in the offense and fluidity categories. Fighters like SRL/SRR/Ali/JMM/Toney rank high here. That unorthodox and kind of pot shotting from Floyd never excited me. It looks too awkward.

Ali ranks low in terms of his inside fighting ability. I trend to look at a complete and rounded and balanced fighter. JCC is one. Not excellent in any category, but can box and slug from any range. Duran is exceptional in the all around senses. One of the strongest and most complete fighters ever. SRL and SRR the same. Toney as well. Could box and slug with the best of them, and could be offensive and dfensive at the dame time. Floyd for me is too defensive, and not as capable of turning defense into offense as good as some others.

Talib Fiasco

Deiseboy01 wrote: »

Andre Ward Talib?

He's probably the only guy out there that is proven to be elite and within a respectable weight distance to Floyd. I'm sure Andre would be able to cut to 164 for a Floyd fight. He'd be drained as hell but for a Floyd fight he'd probably pull it off

walshb

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

He's probably the only guy out there that is proven to be elite and within a respectable weight distance to Floyd. I'm sure Andre would be able to cut to 164 for a Floyd fight. He'd be drained as hell but for a Floyd fight he'd probably pull it off

This is really unrealistic. Floyd is not even that big a WW. He is 38 now and fading. Ward is a true SMW boxer who was 178 lbs as a 20 year old in Athens, 2004!

Talib Fiasco

walshb wrote: »

This is really unrealistic. Floyd is not even that big a WW. He is 38 now and fading. Ward is a true SMW boxer who was 178 lbs as a 20 year old in Athens, 2004!

That's what I'm saying. Ward would be the only guy to elevate his legacy but at that it's a massive stretch for both. So yeah Floyds legacy is set in my eyes, win or lose vs Berto

walshb

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

That's what I'm saying. Ward would be the only guy to elevate his legacy but at that it's a massive stretch for both. So yeah Floyds legacy is set in my eyes, win or lose vs Berto

Why not select GGG? Closer to Floyd in terms of weight, and realism of matching them, and also a top fighter in the world, with real name recognition?

boxer.fan

walshb wrote: »

So true. Example: I would place a lot of emphasis on how a great fighter puts together his punches. Floyd for me ranks low on this. I would rate many higher in the offense and fluidity categories. Fighters like SRL/SRR/Ali/JMM/Toney rank high here. That unorthodox and kind of pot shotting from Floyd never excited me. It looks too awkward.

Ali ranks low in terms of his inside fighting ability. I trend to look at a complete and rounded and balanced fighter. JCC is one. Not excellent in any category, but can box and slug from any range. Duran is exceptional in the all around senses. One of the strongest and most complete fighters ever. SRL and SRR the same. Toney as well. Could box and slug with the best of them, and could be offensive and dfensive at the dame time. Floyd for me is too defensive, and not as capable of turning defense into offense as good as some others.

Many fans will often simply look at a boxers win / loss or KO rate when considering putting them on the ATG list. That should be fairly straightforward, right?

Those who may have a bit of ring experience might appreciate and consider the likes of: 1) evasiveness; 2) durability; 3) ringcraft; and so on.

Its highly subjective and gives us a lot to think about and creates debate which is good i suppose.

Talib Fiasco

walshb wrote: »

Why not select GGG? Closer to Floyd in terms of weight, and realism of matching them, and also a top fighter in the world, with real name recognition?

I like Golovkin, he looks very good but I still feel like he's unproven at the top level. Partly due to being present in a weakish division but I'm still not sure. I expect him to destroy Lemieux as Lemieux has a suspect chin and poor defence but at least he'll throw hell at Golovkin forever long he lasts. I'll be interested to see how Golovkins defence shapes us against a guy like him.

walshb

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

I like Golovkin, he looks very good but I still feel like he's unproven at the top level. Partly due to being present in a weakish division but I'm still not sure. I expect him to destroy Lemieux as Lemieux has a suspect chin and poor defence but at least he'll throw hell at Golovkin forever long he lasts. I'll be interested to see how Golovkins defence shapes us against a guy like him.

How is he unproven? He is the best MW on earth, and apart from beating a washed up/blown up Cotto, what else does he need to do at MW? Saying that the division is weak is a separate issue. You can only fight and prove yourself against the men in your weight class.

Surely at MW he presents a real danger to Floyd? I mean, if Floyd found it difficult against Maidana, for whatever reasons, then GGG is a step too far. You might not rate GGG as a p4p top fighter, but he's clearly the best MW on earth. Floyd eked past Manny, barely scratched him. GGG would be a massive step up on that. You seem to want to raise the bar even higher for Floyd, and see him face a SMW great in Ward?

If Floyd stepped up to 160 and fought GGG I don't think he lands any significant punches to keep GGG off him. It would be cruel beat down. Floyd may make it 12 by running and avoiding fighting, but he gets no offense off to see him make it competitive. It's kind of unfair to ask an average sized 38 year old WW to step up 13 lbs to meet a younger and bigger, and far heavier handed fighter.

megadodge

Walshb, quick question.

On the all-time P4P list, would you rate James Toney higher than Floyd Mayweather Jr?

Simple 'yes' or 'no'.

Talib Fiasco

walshb wrote: »

How is he unproven? He is the best MW on earth, and apart from beating a washed up/blown up Cotto, what else does he need to do at MW? Saying that the division is weak is a separate issue. You can only fight and prove yourself against the men in your weight class.

Surely at MW he presents a real danger to Floyd? I mean, if Floyd found it difficult against Maidana, for whatever reasons, then GGG is a step too far. You might not rate GGG as a p4p top fighter, but he's clearly the best MW on earth. Floyd eked past Manny, barely scratched him. GGG would be a massive step up on that. You seem to want to raise the bar even higher for Floyd, and see him face a SMW great in Ward?

If Floyd stepped up to 160 and fought GGG I don't think he lands any significant punches to keep GGG off him. It would be cruel beat down. Floyd may make it 12 by running and avoiding fighting, but he gets no offense off to see him make it competitive. It's kind of unfair to ask an average sized 38 year old WW to step up 13 lbs to meet a younger and bigger, and far heavier handed fighter.

He is of course but he's a big fish in a small pond...a very small pond. I mean no offence to Andy but it's a miracle he found his way into an easy enough title fight. David Lemieux is an exciting fighter, but again not world champ level, not at all. Jermain bloody Taylor was champ a while back, another joke. Soliman was another. Cotto is MW champ yet makes 154 easy still. There is very little challenges there for Golovkin, he's a victim of his own success in that regard, but he's still just a big fish in a small pond, he hasn't fought top quality opposition guys. And that's why I don't think he's deserving of a Floyd fight and why I have doubts about him. Although it's highly unlikely, he could get a whooping from Lemieux in a few months, if he handles Lemiuex's power well and shows some solid defence, I'd be more confident of him fighting more elite guys but for now he's still unproven in my eyes.

You look at the p4p lists, they all have beaten world class opposition, Golovkin hasn't. Again not his fault the division is @ss but I'm still not convinced he's as great as people label him. Well Floyd is in a league of his own with the likes of Gonzalez and Ward...Ward would be the most realistic of those 3 to fight him now, again highly unlikely but hypothetically...and in terms of legacy they're the only guys I think who'd boost that. If Floyd fought Golovkin and won, many would dismiss Golovkin as all hype, "sure you saw what happened when he fought top class boxers". Ward and Gonzalez are proven greats, Ward is arguably a top 3 SMW of all time and Gonzalez could well go down as the best "small boxer" of all time...if Floyd were to fight them and beat them, it'd boost his legacy enormously as they are proven guys, Golovkin is still a doubt so far...in my eyes anyway.

OneOfThem

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Sweet Pete is probably my favourite boxer of all time but he isn't even top 25 worthy nevermind top 5. I respect Floyd for putting him there, basically the guy he mirrored.

He must have had one of those funky ass carnival mirrors in mind. Whitaker didn't run, hide and spoil his way to comfy points victories over carefully selected and timed opposition. He was elusive, hard to hit, and fought from the back foot a lot of the time. But he fought. And fought the best that were there to fight, at their best. A+ for effort Floyd. But pay closer attention in future.

Talib Fiasco

OneOfThem wrote: »

He must have had one of those funky ass carnival mirrors in mind. Whitaker didn't run, hide and spoil his way to comfy points victories over carefully selected and timed opposition. He was elusive, hard to hit, and fought from the back foot a lot of the time. But he fought. And fought the best that were there to fight, at their best. A+ for effort Floyd. But pay closer attention in future.

Ah give over, ever see Floyd at 130? Absolute monster. The complete opposite of the description you gave him.

Talib Fiasco

Moist Panties wrote: »

Any middleweight who can KO Martin Murray is proven imo.

Good win but I'm still unconvinced by him. I hope I am proven wrong as he is great for the sport but I dunno...I have my doubts

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

Walshb, quick question.

On the all-time P4P list, would you rate James Toney higher than Floyd Mayweather Jr?

Simple 'yes' or 'no'.

You mean you don't want my detailed breakdown? Absolutely I rate him higher. So superior as a skilled fighter. One of the most naturally gifted 'fighters' ever.

Talib Fiasco

Moist Panties wrote: »

Any middleweight who can KO Martin Murray is proven imo. Golovkin is a world class boxer, how can you even doubt that, his opposition was good enough and combined with how easily he knocks them out proves he's world class imo. When's the last time Floyd actually hurt an opponent. He looked more hurt than his opponent in his last three fights.

You don't have to hurt a guy to win fights though. Many an all time great hasn't KO'd damn near every opponent. Floyd has what, a 50% KO rate? Greb must be in the low 20%...Pep was around the same...others like Robinson, Langford, Charles, Armstrong, Kid Chocolate, Schmelling etc etc hd maybe 50% KO's, some even lower, Chocolate definitely was closer to 20%. And these are indisputable all time greats. Is Golovkin suddenly better than all these too because he KO's his opponents? Point being KO's mean nothing in the grand scheme of things. If anything it's an indicator you need to fight better opposition, aka move up in weight.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

You mean you don't want my detailed breakdown? Absolutely I rate him higher. So superior as a skilled fighter. One of the most naturally gifted 'fighters' ever.

Oh dear!

OneOfThem

Talib Fiasco wrote: »

Ah give over, ever see Floyd at 130? Absolute monster. The complete opposite of the description you gave him.

Pre 2002? Yeah, he was pretty hot stuff. Genuinely. Then the next 13 years happened...

Ah I'm being unfair. He's fought well since. I dunno, Floyd maybe could have been great. He maybe could have been the Pea Whitaker of the last 13 years. Floyd 'Maybe' Mayweather. He got three letters right in the oul nickname. It's just a shame.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

Oh dear!

Would you have replied oh dear had I answered with just a yes?

Talib Fiasco

OneOfThem wrote: »

Pre 2002? Yeah, he was pretty hot stuff. Genuinely. Then the next 13 years happened...

Ah I'm being unfair. He's fought well since. I dunno, Floyd maybe could have been great. He maybe could have been the Pea Whitaker of the last 13 years. Floyd 'Maybe' Mayweather. He got three letters right in the oul nickname. It's just a shame.

He's the damn nearest thing to Whitaker in my eyes. Floyd is/was/will be great...definitely not the best ever or close to it...but he's an ATG, a top 5 defensive guy of all time along with Pea, Pep, Locche and maybe Toney. There's what if's over 90% of boxers tbh but I agree, he could have been greater but he has had a stellar career. I've grown to like Floyd or more so appreciate him as I have matured as a Boxing fan. I certainly won't miss his presence and his power in terms of negotiations and picking fights, but I will miss his Boxing style. The old school technicians are very rare in Boxing nowadays, and it's a style I am very fond of. Guys like Lara and Ward are my favourite boxers of the current crop. Since he came out of "retirement" there have been questionable match ups and performances by him, but I look at how he dominated another purist Marquez so easily fresh out of retirement and it reminds me of even then he was still magic.

OneOfThem

He's technically incredible. And his conditioning is second to none. And he's chosen cleverly in his career. And he's applied those assets to exceptional effect. He has been very successful at doing what he does. Fair play to him. If he'd fought the best of all time at their best (which is what we talk about when we talk about an ATG?) he'd have come up very short. I admire what he has done. He has become an extremely wealthy individual, and remained undefeated and unhurt while standing in a little square whilst people that hit hard enough to kill you and train to do that exceptionally, have tried to hit him. And he's secured a competitive victory over all he's faced. It's an impressive thing to do. He's not an ATG boxer though, although maybe he could have been, maybe the potential was there, maybe. We'll never know. And he can't be reasonably compared to Pea.

walshb

OneOfThem wrote: »

He's technically incredible.

Not in the most obvious and important part of the fight game, throwing punches. He's actually quite unorthodox in that area. I wouldn't call him technically perfect/sound or pleasing on the eye in that department.

Floyd broke down as ATG. There are so many criteria one can use: Markings out of ten. He scores high in some obvious areas, but lower in others. His let downs for me are his combination punching, busyness through his career, willingness to face all comers. The comp level is decent, but no way does it stand out. The best name on his ledger is probabaly Oscar, and that was a past his prime Oscar, who gave Floyd hell. I may have missed some obvious criteria. But for me, I try and include as much as possible. He can never be TBE based off this. Never. If I compare this to say SRL or Toney or SRR or Duran or Ali, Floyd comes up short.

Speed: 10
Power: 7.5
Ring generalship/feet: 10
Jab: 8.5
Right cross: 9.5
Uppercutting off one or both wings: 8
Combination punching-fluidity: 7.5
Hooking off one or both wings: 8.5
Inside fighting ability: 8.5
Defense: 10
Overall offense: 8.5
Offense off defence: 8.5
Chin: 9
Adaptation ability: 9.5
Competition level faced: 8
Willingness to face all comers: 7
Stamina: 9.5 (doesn't work all that hard in fights, so not sure how great stamina is. Conserves a lot).
Physical strength:8.5
Seeking out challenges: 6.5
KO percentage: 7
Actual fight record: 9.5
Fight busyness through career: 7
Titles won at weights and success/performances through multiple weight classes: 9. Had the comp level been better through the divisions he gets scored a 10.

Total score is 186

If global name recognition/hype and sensationalism were used then TBE is without doubt, Mayweather. I prefer to stick to the boxing alone. I think many may overrate his ATG status based off his persona/name recognition/0 loss record/ his general braggadocio.

walshb

Speed: 9
Power: 9
Ring generalship/feet: 9.5. Gets the high score based off being so relaxed and in control in the ring. Not all about moving and foot speed.
Jab: 9.5. Terrific jab. Precise, fast and powerful. Can also double and triple jab with ease!
Right cross: 9. Not a shot he uses all that often
Uppercutting off one or both wings: 9.5. Beautiful text book uppercuts in close.
Combination punching-fluidity: 9.5. Watch Barkley/Jirov/Nunn!
Hooking off one or both wings: 9.5. Excellent hooks inside.
Inside fighting ability: 10. No need to elaborate here. One of the best phone booth fighters ever.
Defense: 10. Unreal shoulder roll and slipping ability. Effortless. Doesn't even use his feet.
Overall offense: 9.5. Very busy and varied on offense when on form. Has every shot in the book, and always looks natural throwing them.
Offense off defence: 10. No need to elaborate. Like Duran, he can fire off counters and combinations whilst defending better than anyone I have seen.
Physical strength: 9.5. Very strong MW and SMW. Rare to see him ever give ground, or be mauled or man handled.
Chin: 10. 90 + fights all the way to HW and never really looked remotely close to being hurt, let alone stopped.
Adaptation ability: 9.5. Apart from Roy, who was simply a bad style and too cute and fast, he adapted excellently to all opponents in his prime.
Competition level faced: 10. One of the best comp levels in recent years. Faced them all.
Willingness to face all comers: 10. He'd fight King Kong if he had to.
Stamina: 10. This one may seem odd, but Toney's work rate when he needs to work is astonishing. Go watch some of his bruising fights. His stamina and work rate are off the charts. Prone to being lazy, but when he needs to be his conditioning is unreal.
Seeking out challenges: 10. Never afraid of a challenge.
KO percentage: 8.5. 46 or so KO wins from 75+ fight wins. Pretty good.
Actual fight record: 9. 90 + fights and 76 wins across 20 + years of fighting.
Fight busyness through career: 9.5. For the era he was in he was quite possibly the busiest elite fighter out there
Titles won at weights and success/performances through multiple weight classes: 9.

Scores 219.

hawkeyethenoo

jesus thats some overrating of james toney! if you think toney is that good you must think roy jones is by far the goat. toney was a huge talent but his dedication to the sport stops him from being near a goat list imo.

just after seeing he fought the other day, embarrassing.

walshb

hawkeyethenoo wrote: »

jesus thats some overrating of james toney! if you think toney is that good you must think roy jones is by far the goat. toney was a huge talent but his dedication to the sport stops him from being near a goat list imo.

just after seeing he fought the other day, embarrassing.

I am speaking about peak Toney. And, using the criteria how is it overrating? Maybe show me why you think I am overrating him in certain categories? His last few years have been nothing but painful. No different than any ATG that continues to carry on well past their sell by date.

Bottom line is that Toney is going to the HOF, and is an ATG fighter. As is Floyd, and many others. I am not overrating Toney by that claim! I don't get this criticism about his dedication to the sport? Many many years and many many fights and wins and titles. What are you basing this criticism off? The guy is a born fighter. Loves the game, and gave us many many memorable and skillful performances.

He's had almost twice the amount of bouts that Floyd has had, fought many more better foes than Floyd, and has done this for many years more, yet he gets criticsed for his dedication to the sport? His dedication is a lot more than Floyd, who cherry picked a lot, and was far from a busy man in his career. It all depends on how you view dedication. When would you ever dream of or hear of Toney backing out of fighting a man a weight or two below him?

Roy Jones, too, is going the the hall, and is an ATG. He ranks very high in many categories, but lower in others. He was not perfect. No fighter is.

hawkeyethenoo

walshb wrote: »

I am speaking about peak Toney. And, using each criteria how is it overrating? Maybe show me why you think I am overrating him in certain categories? His last few years have been nothing but painful. No different than any ATG that continues to carry on well past their sell by date.

a peak toney got schooled by rjj, lost to griffin, lost both fights to mccallum in many peoples eyes no shame as they were close fights to a good champion but you are talking about in terms of being top 5/10 goat. who were his best wins against? there was a good few disputed spilt decision wins in toneys peak career. toney in a top 5/10 goat list is laughable to me, hugely talented but not dedicated enough, he a hall of famer though just not one of the goat.

hawkeyethenoo

walshb wrote: »

I don't get this criticism about his dedication to the sport? Many many years and many many fights and wins and titles. What are you basing this criticism off?

inability to control weight, all the talent in the world but his diet and weight problems, corner cutting with supplements etc.

walshb

hawkeyethenoo wrote: »

a peak toney got schooled by rjj, lost to griffin, lost both fights to mccallum in many peoples eyes no shame as they were close fights to a good champion but you are talking about in terms of being top 5/10 goat. who were his best wins against? there was a good few disputed spilt decision wins in toneys peak career. toney in a top 5/10 goat list is laughable to me, hugely talented but not dedicated enough.

Lost to Griffin in a very close fight. And, he beat McCallum, and ATG himself. Like I said, no fighter is perfect. You can pick holes in any of them. That is why record ALONE is not really a safe barometer. If it was then Ali suffers due to his losses, as does SRR and many others.

For me JLC beat Floyd. I had Oscar a winner too. He scraped past Maidana. Scraped past a smaller Manny. Never really sought out tough fights.

walshb

hawkeyethenoo wrote: »

inability to control weight, all the talent in the world but his diet and weight problems, corner cutting with supplements etc.

Inability to control weight? He moved up through the weights. Big deal. He still was always competitive at his best. MW was a very difficult weight to make for him. What fighter do you know had it easy making weight? You are nit picking a lot here. Duran was pretty poor when it came to controlling weight. I wouldn't place too much emphasis on this as a criterion when assessing him or many others. Monzon smoked like a trooper. Would you hold that against him?

hawkeyethenoo

walshb wrote: »

Lost to Griffin in a very close fight. And, he beat McCallum, and ATG himself. Like I said, no fighter is perfect. You can pick holes in any of them. That is why record ALONE is not really a safe barometer. If it was then Ali suffers due to his losses, as does SRR and many others.

For me JLC beat Floyd. I had Oscar a winner too. He scraped past Maidana. Scraped past a smaller Manny. Never really sought out tough fights.

these quotes sum up my feelings on toney. the man was his own worst enemy.

Arum pulls no punches when posed the same question.

“If he didn’t have an eating disorder, Toney would’ve gone down as one of the greatest fighters in history,” he said.

Roach agrees with Arum but took Toney’s potential one step further.

“If James was as disciplined as Hopkins or if he trained as hard as Manny (Pacquiao), he’d probably be the greatest fighter of all time.”

walshb

hawkeyethenoo wrote: »

these quotes sum up my feelings on toney. the man was his own worst enemy.

Nonsense. If Toney was as "disciplined" as Hop or trained as hard as Manny he would never have ventured to meet Jirov and others; he would have been content to feast on blown up WWs like Hopkins did for so long. Toney's brilliance was god given. The training aspect, or demonic training that he could have employed would probably have resulted in little benefit. May have had even more gas in the tank, but what else? Hard work and dedication are very important, but more so to some. Toney got by on talent first, and training second.

Can you explain how a man so undisciplined and lacking dedication can pull off such wins and give so many fine performances for such a long period of time?