Ireland v Scotland - RWC Warm Up

irishbucsfan

Zzippy wrote: »

A whole season, really? He was clearly tired towards the end of the season and under pressure from Cooney, but making stuff up to suit an argument isn't really fair to the guy. First half of the season he was excellent. Remember his try against Leinster?

Fair enough, it wasn't a season. It was lazy writing on my end, however it did happen throughout last season, not just at the end of the season. And I'm not convinced it was down to his inability to deal with tiredness either, I think it was just the kind of performance slump that you see loads of good young players go through, we've seen plenty of great players hit those patches as youngsters.

aimee1

First Up wrote: »

I think Touhy let himself down in the loose and probably played himself off the squad. Same old Luke also - snatching at passes and getting his positioning wrong a few times. Frustrating because he has all the talent. His try was lovely but a lot due to Madigan's perfect kick and some naive Scottish covering.

Fitz did first contact sessions last week according to JS. So he is going to be rusty. A few times he was close to a good link up with zebo. One was a mix up, which happens with new combinations and the other was a poor pass down around his ankles from zebo who had been tackled. His clearance kick which scotland ran in for a try was a mistake, he should have found touch.

Only a few players really stood out. Madigan, SOB and Payne the most notable.

Most Others were a mixed bag with more good then bad in their performances.

Tuohy had a poor game and having had some gametime last week he should have had a bit more about him this week. I think we will have POC, Toner, Henderson and Ryan as our second rows.

First Up

aimee1 wrote: »

Fitz did first contact sessions last week according to JS. So he is going to be rusty. A few times he was close to a good link up with zebo. One was a mix up, which happens with new combinations and the other was a poor pass down around his ankles from zebo who had been tackled. His clearance kick which scotland ran in for a try was a mistake, he should have found touch.

Only a few players really stood out. Madigan, SOB and Payne the most notable.

Most Others were a mixed bag with more good then bad in their performances.

Tuohy had a poor game and having had some gametime last week he should have had a bit more about him this week. I think we will have POC, Toner, Henderson and Ryan as our second rows.

I though Kilcoyne put his hand up too. Agreed about 2nd row. Henderson covers 6 as well, although we are not short in that department..

aimee1

First Up wrote: »

I though Kilcoyne put his hand up too. Agreed about 2nd row. Henderson covers 6 as well, although we are not short in that department..

Kilcoyne was liked 6-7 others for me. Mixed but more good then bad. About what i would expect given the shorter prep time.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

sydthebeat wrote: »

Jackson 10 Madigan 12 ??

obviously not perfect, but is that a pairing that could compliment each other?
jacksons management and madigans line threat

could even be a possibility against Romania?

Madigan played a fair bit at 12 last season for Leinster and I don't remember it being that great. Although I know everything at Leinster under MoC comes with an asterisk beside it.

I do remember against the Scarlets just before the Bath QF they were resting a few players and D'Arcy played 12 and it made Gopperth and Te'o look like 2 completely different players. They were so good compared to when Madigan had been at 12. Of course it could have just been a massive coincidence.

aimee1

awec wrote: »

Enough of this bollocks. Stop with the handbags.

Very nigel owens.

Buer

Zzippy wrote: »

In any case, the only reason Boss will travel is experience. He's not a better player, his form isn't better, he's slower, his kicking isn't up to much. The only advantage he has over Marmion is experience. Which is fine if that's what we need, but let's not distort the truth to make an argument for a player.

I've said this before on here and I don't think anyone really cared but I believe the reason he'll travel is due to the intangible things we do not have a view of.

Boss is a very popular member of the Leinster and Irish squad. He is someone that is a real workhorse and team bloke in the set up. He has a voice in the dressing room and lifts the camp.

It's the same way Jennings got to go to the 2011 RWC and Quinlan got selected for the Lions tour. They weren't the top players in their positions (Jennings was no longer starting for Leinster at that stage) but they were known as fantastic guys to have around a squad who would be great characters to keep others working hard and focussed.

Zzippy

Buer wrote: »

I've said this before on here and I don't think anyone really cared but I believe the reason he'll travel is due to the intangible things we do not have a view of.

Boss is a very popular member of the Leinster and Irish squad. He is someone that is a real workhorse and team bloke in the set up. He has a voice in the dressing room and lifts the camp.

It's the same way Jennings got to go to the 2011 RWC and Quinlan got selected for the Lions tour. They weren't the top players in their positions (Jennings was no longer starting for Leinster at that stage) but they were known as fantastic guys to have around a squad who would be great characters to keep others working hard and focussed.

I get that, but have we not moved on from picking someone because they're popular and a good motivator? We have enough of those in the squad - POC, Sexton, Kearney etc, and I would hope the setup is professional enough now that players don't need a guy in their ear like that. I have no problem with Boss travelling if he's picked based on his experience, but I don't think he should go for reasons of popularity or being a "team bloke".

total former

Zzippy wrote: »

In any case, the only reason Boss will travel is experience. He's not a better player, his form isn't better, he's slower, his kicking isn't up to much. The only advantage he has over Marmion is experience. Which is fine if that's what we need, but let's not distort the truth to make an argument for a player.

His form in the second half of last season was very good. How much that means now is questionable of course, but he finished the season in better form.

Buer

Zzippy wrote: »

I get that, but have we not moved on from picking someone because they're popular and a good motivator? We have enough of those in the squad - POC, Sexton, Kearney etc, and I would hope the setup is professional enough now that players don't need a guy in their ear like that. I have no problem with Boss travelling if he's picked based on his experience, but I don't think he should go for reasons of popularity or being a "team bloke".

People are people. Professionals can be lazy, lose focus and be sloppy. You could see from Jennings' interview late last season he was frustrated with the efforts of some in the Leinster camp.

When you get 31 lads in a camp together for a couple of months with very little change of scenery, there will be a couple of those lads needed.

I'm not just referring to someone who can be a leader by example like Sexton. You need a guy who knows when to rip the p*ss out of someone to get them working harder or give someone a bollocking. POC can do it, I believe, from everything I've read. Don't think Sexton or Kearney have those personalities....definitely not Sexton who gets very lippy with his team mates.

It's not a popularity thing. It's a case of someone who can motivate and steer from within a group. You need those lieutenants within a camp who aren't the captain who will bring the peripheral players into the fold.

Alan Quinlan was the master of it. Absolute professional behind the scenes but fantastic with the other lads in the squad also despite never being an Irish regular. I think he said before he holds the record for Irish camps without playing the games after them. But I'd suspect he brought a lot of value to the Irish team without playing.

irishbucsfan

Zzippy wrote: »

I get that, but have we not moved on from picking someone because they're popular and a good motivator? We have enough of those in the squad - POC, Sexton, Kearney etc, and I would hope the setup is professional enough now that players don't need a guy in their ear like that. I have no problem with Boss travelling if he's picked based on his experience, but I don't think he should go for reasons of popularity or being a "team bloke".

But it's not like he's completely past it and he's being selected ONLY because of his experience. He played well for Leinster last season, there were periods when he was the only Irish 9 playing well (with Murray out injured). He played poorly last weekend but he's not being selected based on that standard of play + experience, he's being selected based on the ability that allowed him to play much better than that last season as well as his off-field impact.

The Rape of Lucretia

vienne86 wrote: »

You're spot on IMO. I'm a great fan of Madigan, but he is a bit streaky - very good or very bad, and we really can't afford a very bad performance.

Very good under Joe. Not so good when not playing for Joe. There is a pattern there.

vienne86 wrote: »

Jackson had a bad day with the boot last week, but I have seen him kick really really well for Ulster - I'd say he was rusty and should be able to put it right.

Not the case at all. It wasnt last week that Jackson's weakness as a kicker 'kicked up'. It a long standing issue that he is not a top flight kicker. He isnt going to sort it in a month anyway.

In mitigation, I do feel undue pressure is put on Irish standoffs to goal kick. And other backs let off too easily. Other countries are far more open in this regard. When did Ireland last have a non standoff taking their kicks ? M Kiernan 30 years ago ?
Jackson is a nice player, and possibly would be a more automatic fit for the #2 spot if we had a wider kicking policy.

irishbucsfan

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Very good under Joe. Not so good when not playing for Joe. There is a pattern there.

Nope, incorrect. He's had plenty of those days under Joe as well. We had a day away to Ospreys under Joe where we lost and Madigan had an absolute shocker.

The Rape of Lucretia

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nope, incorrect. He's had plenty of those days under Joe as well. We had a day away to Ospreys under Joe where we lost and Madigan had an absolute shocker.

Nope. Not plenty. And that one is going back a while. Mad was on the up and up so much so that people werent even that worried when Sex left, even though Mad was never going to be that standard. He got shunted around to other positions or left out altogether from the Leinster team with no continuity. Yet continued to play well in a green shirt. MOC put the brakes on him and has held back his career although he is lucky that he still had a link to Joe.
His performance on Saturday was excellent. No competition now for bench 10 for the main games.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Very good under Joe. Not so good when not playing for Joe. There is a pattern there.



Not the case at all. It wasnt last week that Jackson's weakness as a kicker 'kicked up'. It a long standing issue that he is not a top flight kicker. He isnt going to sort it in a month anyway.

In mitigation, I do feel undue pressure is put on Irish standoffs to goal kick. And other backs let off too easily. Other countries are far more open in this regard. When did Ireland last have a non standoff taking their kicks ? M Kiernan 30 years ago ?
Jackson is a nice player, and possibly would be a more automatic fit for the #2 spot if we had a wider kicking policy.

Good point.

Pointless, I know, but if there was someone else on the field that could kick at goal how do Madigan and Jackson compare purely as a 10? Would Madigan even come into the argument if you're ignoring goal kicking?

vienne86

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Very good under Joe. Not so good when not playing for Joe. There is a pattern there.



Not the case at all. It wasnt last week that Jackson's weakness as a kicker 'kicked up'. It a long standing issue that he is not a top flight kicker. He isnt going to sort it in a month anyway.

In mitigation, I do feel undue pressure is put on Irish standoffs to goal kick. And other backs let off too easily. Other countries are far more open in this regard. When did Ireland last have a non standoff taking their kicks ? M Kiernan 30 years ago ?
Jackson is a nice player, and possibly would be a more automatic fit for the #2 spot if we had a wider kicking policy.

I don't know about Madigan performing well under Joe....

As for Jackson's kicking, I wish he got more kicking duties with Ulster.

awec

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Good point.

Pointless, I know, but if there was someone else on the field that could kick at goal how do Madigan and Jackson compare purely as a 10? Would Madigan even come into the argument if you're ignoring goal kicking?

Madigan is better than Jackson at kicking from hand too probably, but the rest of Jackson's game is way ahead of Madigan, especially his distribution and bringing players into the game.

I've said before that I think Madigan is one of the most over rated players in Ireland. He can stink the place out for most of the game but he'll make one line break and people will think the guy is amazing. He is wildly inconsistent and he can struggle with the basics at 10.

He's a decent player but his greatest asset is that he can cover two positions to a semi-decent standard and can fill a shirt at full back in case of emergency.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

Madigan is better than Jackson at kicking from hand too probably, but the rest of Jackson's game is way ahead of Madigan, especially his distribution and bringing players into the game.

I've said before that I think Madigan is one of the most over rated players in Ireland. He can stink the place out for most of the game but he'll make one line break and people will think the guy is amazing. He is wildly inconsistent and he can struggle with the basics at 10.

He's a decent player but his greatest asset is that he can cover two positions to a semi-decent standard and can fill a shirt at full back in case of emergency.

I quite like Madigan but I am inclined to agree. I didn't see him do anything special against Scotland bar about 5 minutes of decent play to set up te tries. It is difficult to tell when he's alongside a questionable SH and D'Arcy who didn't have a great day either. Jackson had Reddan and Cave last week, arguably better players to be alongside. Still though, and I've said it before, if Madigan was good enough in any if his positions he'd have nailed down a starting jersey by now. Even at Leinster last season he didn't manage to stake a real claim on the 12 or 15 jersey.

.ak

Madigan never played better at 10 under Joe, that's a myth people like to hold onto for some reason. He scored a gazillion tries because he had a wicked right step and brilliant turn of pace, with a very low centre of gravity - basically give him the ball 5m out and it was try time. But back then Leinster's 1st string, 2nd string and 3rd string pack were absolutely dominating everyone up front. He had an arm chair ride in those games. I said it at the time though he lacked the basic vision of an outhalf and would struggle behind a pack that wasn't so dominant.

I do however agree that Joe will probably get more out of him than MOC or other coaches will, but he actually improved his core skills under MOC and those years will probably stand to him, learning how to distribute more intelligently rather than taking on the ball himself every time.

smiley_face

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Madigan still has the same problem he's shown us many times this season. He played very well but I wouldn't want to ever trust him playing against top class opposition. That botched kickoff was a reminder of exactly what he is also capable of. When Sean O'Brien spoke about Ireland playing in the wrong areas it's the half backs who take responsibility for that, and that's always been the area he's had major issues with, and it's something that will become more important the better the opposition is.

He did some lovely things, he had a couple of really nice kicks from hand and the passes for Zebo's try were lovely. I still wouldn't have him near Jackson or Sexton though myself until he proves he can do all of that with some level of consistency.

You made one very important point there, that O'Brien wanted the team to play in better parts of the pitch.
That's a big part of the game plan we go out to play under Joe, and I'd expect the backroom team will be looking at ways that Madigan can improve on that aspect of game management for the future.

On the rest of his performance, though there were a few mistakes I think it is to be expected over the course of 80 minutes.
The no.10 will make a lot of plays throughout a match, some will not work, and a mis-kick can happen from time to time, no matter who you are (I've watched Dan Carter make a few silly mistakes lately).
The way I look at it is that if a player can do things of quality most of the time, then I think they are as good as any other 10 out there, which Madigan is capable of doing.
Nobody has a dream match from start to finish, it would be hypercritical to suggest a few mistakes make a player unreliable.
There will always be a kick that skewed off the boot, or a pass a bit too high.

Madigan played really well overall, and I think in the first 20 minutes everyone around me that was watching the match agreed that he looked better than Jackson did the week before.

As the match went on a few mistakes crept in, but overall I'd accept a few mistakes as long as there is that quality to the rest of the play, which there was.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

Madigan never played better at 10 under Joe,

Well he did play better at 10 under Joe, you gave some reasons why that may be the case, but the fact still remains that he played a lot better back then. In one way it's harsh to judge his last two years vs the years under Schmidt because of all the advantages he had under Schmidt, but on the other hand you can't say he didnt play better back then, because he did, regardless of other factors

CatFromHue

awec wrote: »

Madigan is better than Jackson at kicking from hand too probably, but the rest of Jackson's game is way ahead of Madigan, especially his distribution and bringing players into the game.

I've said before that I think Madigan is one of the most over rated players in Ireland. He can stink the place out for most of the game but he'll make one line break and people will think the guy is amazing. He is wildly inconsistent and he can struggle with the basics at 10.

I don't know about PJ's kicking from hand but I wouldn't have thought that would be one of Madigan's strong points.

I agree on him being over rated too.

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

Well he did play better at 10 under Joe, you gave some reasons why that may be the case, but the fact still remains that he played a lot better back then. In one way it's harsh to judge his last two years vs the years under Schmidt because of all the advantages he had under Schmidt, but on the other hand you can't say he didnt play better back then, because he did, regardless of other factors

I disagree. I think people think he played better because he scored tries. I don't think he ever played well at 10 - it was overshadowed by the fact we were winning, people were happy enough to ignore the deficiencies in his game, but aside from a cut out pass he was awful at distribution and rarely was aware of what the rest of the backline were doing.

He found his voice after Sexton left. He learned he had to add more elements to his game also. Leinster didn't play well, but Madigan improved imo. Sure Madigan couldn't even make touch under Joe!

awec

.ak wrote: »

Madigan never played better at 10 under Joe, that's a myth people like to hold onto for some reason. He scored a gazillion tries because he had a wicked right step and brilliant turn of pace, with a very low centre of gravity - basically give him the ball 5m out and it was try time. But back then Leinster's 1st string, 2nd string and 3rd string pack were absolutely dominating everyone up front. He had an arm chair ride in those games. I said it at the time though he lacked the basic vision of an outhalf and would struggle behind a pack that wasn't so dominant.

I do however agree that Joe will probably get more out of him than MOC or other coaches will, but he actually improved his core skills under MOC and those years will probably stand to him, learning how to distribute more intelligently rather than taking on the ball himself every time.

He potentially also had the same thing as Nick Williams. Scored a lot of tries until teams figured him out.

Now they know you just have to get all up in his face and be aware that he likes to try do it all himself.

.ak

It will be interesting to see how he progresses. Like I said, the scotland game was actually a really positive performance from him, very mature. I still have hope he'll continue to develop.

awec

.ak wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how he progresses. Like I said, the scotland game was actually a really positive performance from him, very mature. I still have hope he'll continue to develop.

And to go back to another point that's been made loads of times, how much more can he realistically develop if he is playing second fiddle at Leinster?

If he wants to improve, he firstly needs to pick a position and stick with it. He then needs to be playing in that position regularly for the majority of games, not coming off the bench with 20 to go and playing when the main man is being rested.

.ak

awec wrote: »

And to go back to another point that's been made loads of times, how much more can he realistically develop if he is playing second fiddle at Leinster?

If he wants to improve, he firstly needs to pick a position and stick with it. He then needs to be playing in that position regularly for the majority of games, not coming off the bench with 20 to go and playing when the main man is being rested.

Ah I'm not really sure about that. I reckon he'll play more at 10 this season than any other. Sexton will be used very sparingly, unlike Jimmy who had the freedom to play every game.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

awec wrote: »

And to go back to another point that's been made loads of times, how much more can he realistically develop if he is playing second fiddle at Leinster?

If he wants to improve, he firstly needs to pick a position and stick with it. He then needs to be playing in that position regularly for the majority of games, not coming off the bench with 20 to go and playing when the main man is being rested.

Realistically that would have to be 12 at Leinster? I know there's a fair bit of roration there particularly around 6 Nations but all being equal Sexton is 10 and Kearney is 15. If Madigan wants to pick a position and stick to it it has to be 12, or play for someone else?

Would do his international chances no harm either. Our centre pairing is still quite new and Payne isn't that young, is he?

awec

.ak wrote: »

Ah I'm not really sure about that. I reckon he'll play more at 10 this season than any other. Sexton will be used very sparingly, unlike Jimmy who had the freedom to play every game.

This season maybe, but long term?

shuffol

I think the biggest positive for Madigan over Jackson right now is that he just looks more assured of himself in a green shirt whereas Jackson I think is still finding his feet at this level. Any time Madigan has come on for Ireland he's generally done quite well and not looked phased like away to France in 2014. I rate Jackson much more highly as a player but right now I'd have more confidence in Madigan coming off the bench.