Ireland v Scotland - RWC Warm Up

connachta

Zzippy wrote: »

I'm ambivalent about which guy travels, would prefer Marmion obv but it's not like either of them will have much bearing on our WC. But this is a bit harsh on Marmion - he got 10 minutes on the pitch, and his passing in those 10 minutes was a lot crisper than what I saw from Boss on Saturday. "Put a scrumcap on him and he could have been Boss" isn't exactly complimentary from you either!
In any case, you can't compare a short cameo with a starting role. That alone probably indicates where Joe's thinking probably lies.

Exactly, that's why

connachta wrote: »

It's too easy to say he didn't proove to be better when he had no gametime
At least let's agree to give him a chance against Wales, 30-40 minutes
Imo what he did in 13 minutes, and against Castres was way better than Boss

If he fails to deliver in two weeks, ok for Boss. But he wasn't good enough to keep the competition out just by himself this W-E. I think it's a moderate stance

First Up

Zzippy wrote: »

I'm ambivalent about which guy travels, would prefer Marmion obv but it's not like either of them will have much bearing on our WC. But this is a bit harsh on Marmion - he got 10 minutes on the pitch, and his passing in those 10 minutes was a lot crisper than what I saw from Boss on Saturday. "Put a scrumcap on him and he could have been Boss" isn't exactly complimentary from you either!
In any case, you can't compare a short cameo with a starting role. That alone probably indicates where Joe's thinking probably lies.




Yeah we really lacked a bit of "dog" in the second row on Saturday, Tuohy just didn't stand up and show he's worthy of a spot on the plane. Also think Fitz will be worried - his try apart he wasn't exactly great. First game back and all that but he probably needs a good showing against Wales. Hope he does, it would be a shame for him to never make a WC squad.

I think Touhy let himself down in the loose and probably played himself off the squad. Same old Luke also - snatching at passes and getting his positioning wrong a few times. Frustrating because he has all the talent. His try was lovely but a lot due to Madigan's perfect kick and some naive Scottish covering.

total former

OldRio wrote: »

Holy mother of God. We get it you, ADORE Boss. You backed yourself in corner over the Marmion v Boss situation and are not man enough to realise your mistake. 'He was grand' 'Core game was fine' Really? Honestly? Or are you just blinded by BIAS.
If a Munster player had put in a performance like that you would be raging. If a Connacht player had done the same you would have had a meltdown.
Boss should be no where near this squad.

Well that wasn't very nice. Cut me to the core it did.

Luckily, my spirits were picked up again by the absolute hilarity of your points; that saying someone was "grand" counts as adoration, and that me saying a Leinster player was grand is clear provincial bias, whereas your motives in promoting Marmion are pure as the driven snow.

So yeah, the week is off to a good start, smile on my face on a Monday morning.

.ak

First Up wrote: »

I think Touhy let himself down in the loose and probably played himself off the squad. Same old Luke also - snatching at passes and getting his positioning wrong a few times. Frustrating because he has all the talent. His try was lovely but a lot due to Madigan's perfect kick and some naive Scottish covering.

I don't think that's really fair. He had one spell in an Irish jersey like that, when he came back from injury, a few years back. Other than that he's been in pretty exceptional form. To say 'same old Luke' implies that's what he's always been like, when it simply isn't true. Before his injury he was electric too. Same old Luke would imply he had a good game.

FWIW I thought he had a mixed bag, he same nice touches, but it wasn't that long ago he put in a stellar performance in Murrayfield after being left out in the cold, so I imagine he has some credit in the bank.

OldRio

total former wrote: »

Well that wasn't very nice. Cut me to the core it did.

Luckily, my spirits were picked up again by the absolute hilarity of your points; that saying someone was "grand" counts as adoration, and that me saying a Leinster player was grand is clear provincial bias, whereas your motives in promoting Marmion are pure as the driven snow.

So yeah, the week is off to a good start, smile on my face on a Monday morning.

Bless. Nice to know you still read my posts. Well at least I can never be accused of being glad an Irish provincial team was beaten. Unlike yourself.
Please show me where I promoted Marmion. Oh wait you can't. Can you?

irishbucsfan

Boss is not going to start a game for Ireland. What's more important is how he plays off the bench which is where he usually does better. The same would be true for Marmion, not a chance he would start a game for us either.

Marmion's issues with his passing and decision makong are pretty obvious and he's coming off a season of poor form. I just don't see him having enough time to displace Boss at this stage, however I'd really like to see him come off the bench against Wales with enough time to be really tested, particularly important to see him play with Madigan.

First Up

.ak wrote: »

I don't think that's really fair. He had one spell in an Irish jersey like that, when he came back from injury, a few years back. Other than that he's been in pretty exceptional form. To say 'same old Luke' implies that's what he's always been like, when it simply isn't true. Before his injury he was electric too. Same old Luke would imply he had a good game.

FWIW I thought he had a mixed bag, he same nice touches, but it wasn't that long ago he put in a stellar performance in Murrayfield after being left out in the cold, so I imagine he has some credit in the bank.

Of course he has credit in the bank but he needs to be showing that he is ready now and I don't think he convinced many on Saturday. I would love to see him at the top of his game because we have few better but errors like those he made on Saturday really stand out as we get to crunch time.

.ak

First Up wrote: »

Of course he has credit in the bank but he needs to be showing that he is ready now and I don't think he convinced many on Saturday. I would love to see him at the top of his game because we have few better but errors like those he made on Saturday really stand out as we get to crunch time.

Yeah but you could replace the name Fitzgerald for basically anyone else on the pitch and that comment would hold true. Nobody played themselves onto the plane on Saturday... I think the only player that improved in our eyes anyway is Madigan.

vienne86

I was a bit disappointed with Luke on Saturday - I think he was trying too hard, as he has done before. Maybe he was just rusty.

awec

total former wrote: »

Well that wasn't very nice. Cut me to the core it did.

Luckily, my spirits were picked up again by the absolute hilarity of your points; that saying someone was "grand" counts as adoration, and that me saying a Leinster player was grand is clear provincial bias, whereas your motives in promoting Marmion are pure as the driven snow.

So yeah, the week is off to a good start, smile on my face on a Monday morning.

OldRio wrote: »

Bless. Nice to know you still read my posts. Well at least I can never be accused of being glad an Irish provincial team was beaten. Unlike yourself.
Please show me where I promoted Marmion. Oh wait you can't. Can you?

Enough of this bollocks. Stop with the handbags.

First Up

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Boss is not going to start a game for Ireland. What's more important is how he plays off the bench which is where he usually does better. The same would be true for Marmion, not a chance he would start a game for us either.

Marmion's issues with his passing and decision makong are pretty obvious and he's coming off a season of poor form. I just don't see him having enough time to displace Boss at this stage, however I'd really like to see him come off the bench against Wales with enough time to be really tested, particularly important to see him play with Madigan.

I think that is fair comment - Boss off the bench would bring a good tactical awareness with him. I'm just concerned that he would slows thing down, just at the time tired legs are creating opportunities to speed things up. Marmion has an electric break as well but that may not be the priority by the time he would be called into action.

First Up

.ak wrote: »

Yeah but you could replace the name Fitzgerald for basically anyone else on the pitch and that comment would hold true. Nobody played themselves onto the plane on Saturday... I think the only player that improved in our eyes anyway is Madigan.

Yep, Mads did well but Kilcoyne did himself no harm either (well not much), Zebo was good (although not MOTM) and Henry looked a proper 7.

.ak

vienne86 wrote: »

I was a bit disappointed with Luke on Saturday - I think he was trying too hard, as he has done before. Maybe he was just rusty.

Ah yeah, absolutely. He's a few weeks behind everyone in terms of prep work also, so I imagine he was working hard at running and flexibility. He looks in great shape, he was carrying a few extra 'dirty' kgs as he was asked to play centre last season, but now he looks in much better shape.

He ball skills and placement will come back - luckily Joe is very familiar with him, so I think that may go long way, I don't think Joe will be deciding who's going and who's staying from these tests, just more about getting game time... maybe solving a few question marks.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Boss is not going to start a game for Ireland. What's more important is how he plays off the bench which is where he usually does better. The same would be true for Marmion, not a chance he would start a game for us either.

Marmion's issues with his passing and decision makong are pretty obvious and he's coming off a season of poor form. I just don't see him having enough time to displace Boss at this stage, however I'd really like to see him come off the bench against Wales with enough time to be really tested, particularly important to see him play with Madigan.

I.....agree.....

* looks out the window for the pig sailing through the air......

.ak

First Up wrote: »

Yep, Mads did well but Kilcoyne did himself no harm either (well not much), Zebo was good (although not MOTM) and Henry looked a proper 7.

Yep... Although I think we all knew that about the above players, where as there was serious question marks over Madigan at 10... and could he do it behind a pack that wasn't dominating. I was surprised, to be honest, as I'm a bit of a critic of him when he plays at 10.

First Up

.ak wrote: »

Yep... Although I think we all knew that about the above players, where as there was serious question marks over Madigan at 10... and could he do it behind a pack that wasn't dominating. I was surprised, to be honest, as I'm a bit of a critic of him when he plays at 10.

Kilcoyne needed to do it as a starter in green and Henry needed to show he is fully recovered from his health scare. Madigan is not the finished article at 10 but he scares the sh#t out of the opposition and brings flair and imagination - as well as pretty good place kicking. I think he is ahead of Jackson and his positional flexibility should see him safely on the plane.

irishbucsfan

Madigan still has the same problem he's shown us many times this season. He played very well but I wouldn't want to ever trust him playing against top class opposition. That botched kickoff was a reminder of exactly what he is also capable of. When Sean O'Brien spoke about Ireland playing in the wrong areas it's the half backs who take responsibility for that, and that's always been the area he's had major issues with, and it's something that will become more important the better the opposition is.

He did some lovely things, he had a couple of really nice kicks from hand and the passes for Zebo's try were lovely. I still wouldn't have him near Jackson or Sexton though myself until he proves he can do all of that with some level of consistency.

phog

In all likelihood Boss will travel as 3rd choice scrumhalf but for anyone to think his game on Saturday was at an acceptable level for an International scrumhalf is beyond belief.

Slow and ponderous at times, poor passing and kicking.

Watch the difference in our game once Reddan came on.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Madigan still has the same problem he's shown us many times this season. He played very well but I wouldn't want to ever trust him playing against top class opposition. That botched kickoff was a reminder of exactly what he is also capable of. When Sean O'Brien spoke about Ireland playing in the wrong areas it's the half backs who take responsibility for that, and that's always been the area he's had major issues with, and it's something that will become more important the better the opposition is.

He did some lovely things, he had a couple of really nice kicks from hand and the passes for Zebo's try were lovely. I still wouldn't have him near Jackson or Sexton though myself until he proves he can do all of that with some level of consistency.

Agreed.

I still reckon he'll be ahead of Jackson for the 22 jersey though.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

I read something over the weekend that implied Schmidt, and the rest of the coaching staff, were trying to make their decisions based only on this summer's training and warm up matches. I would say this maybe only applies to the 6,7,8 or so players who are required to make up the 31 man squad. I mean there are certain players who are guaranteed to travel, I assume, but I thought it was an interesting way to look at the discussions regarding the centres, wings and full backs.

Obviously we don't know what's going on in training, a few reports here and there, but if we assume selection is based purely on this summer's efforts for those last few spots, and I'm aware we've only seen two matches so far, does it change any opinions on who gets those places.

The general consensus is a 17/14 split with 3 SH and 3 OH leaving 8 places.

Based on what we've seen, and assuming Kearney, Henshaw and Payne go that leaves 5. So for me that's Cave, Earls, Trimble and Zebo and I suppose Dave Kearney based purely on that brief appearance and reports from training.

And remember it based purely on the idea that selection will be based purely on this Summer's training and matches.

Akrasia

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Madigan still has the same problem he's shown us many times this season. He played very well but I wouldn't want to ever trust him playing against top class opposition. That botched kickoff was a reminder of exactly what he is also capable of. When Sean O'Brien spoke about Ireland playing in the wrong areas it's the half backs who take responsibility for that, and that's always been the area he's had major issues with, and it's something that will become more important the better the opposition is.

He did some lovely things, he had a couple of really nice kicks from hand and the passes for Zebo's try were lovely. I still wouldn't have him near Jackson or Sexton though myself until he proves he can do all of that with some level of consistency.

Every player makes mistakes. Even Dan carter screws up restarts every now and then. He was pretty rubbiish against Scotland last year

Madigan had a good game on Saturday over all and he offers more to the team than Jackson imo.

Noopti

I think overall what is potentially interesting is that the team against Wales seemed to hit the ground running, and either had very little nerves or they controlled them well. Probably as it was the first game, away from home, no huge expectations etc. They really made people take notice and their were lots of expressions of "X has done well and put pressure on Y".

The team this week seemed to be under pressure as a result and it showed for a number of players. It is only natural you would be thinking "jeez, I gotta be on form in this game after what the lads did last week". So you might focus more on your individual impact, and force things. Then the guys on the bench came on and they were actually under less pressure as they hadn't started the game and were fired up to make an impression. And you could see nearly all of them have a great impact.

Could be all bollocks, but I really think the performance against Wales piled huge pressure on the starting team against Scotland, and some didn't take to it very well. Which is what you want in these warm-ups, you want players putting others under pressure and it is sink or swim time. The lads who handle it and deliver are the guys you want playing in tough group games, quarters, semis etc.

irishbucsfan

Akrasia wrote: »

Every player makes mistakes. Even Dan carter screws up restarts every now and then. He was pretty rubbiish against Scotland last year

Madigan had a good game on Saturday over all and he offers more to the team than Jackson imo.

Yes but Dan Carter is an elite out half every other day (or at least historically he has been).

Every other day Ian Madigan is an error-prone player who struggles at 10, both at international and provincial level. Look at how much Ireland's performance declined against England when Sexton went off early for Madigan in this year's 6 Nations.

Jackson is a better distributor and puts his teams in better positions to win. If Sexton went down with an injury and we needed someone to start against France I'd choose Jackson every day of the week. Madigan is great bench cover because he can cover the other positions, and he's still a decent enough 10 to give us the option to get Sexton off the field in the 2nd half, that's where his value is.

First Up

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes but Dan Carter is an elite out half every other day (or at least historically he has been).

Every other day Ian Madigan is an error-prone player who struggles at 10, both at international and provincial level. Look at how much Ireland's performance declined against England when Sexton went off early for Madigan in this year's 6 Nations.

Jackson is a better distributor and puts his teams in better positions to win. If Sexton went down with an injury and we needed someone to start against France I'd choose Jackson every day of the week. Madigan is great bench cover because he can cover the other positions, and he's still a decent enough 10 to give us the option to get Sexton off the field in the 2nd half, that's where his value is.

Jackson's place kicking is what really has him under pressure. If that was more reliable he would probably get the nod over Madigan. No question a bad day off the tee filters into other parts of a player's game. Jackson has had nightmare appearances and whatever about Madigan being a bit too cocky for his own good, he never lets his head drop.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes but Dan Carter is an elite out half every other day (or at least historically he has been).

Every other day Ian Madigan is an error-prone player who struggles at 10, both at international and provincial level. Look at how much Ireland's performance declined against England when Sexton went off early for Madigan in this year's 6 Nations.

Jackson is a better distributor and puts his teams in better positions to win. If Sexton went down with an injury and we needed someone to start against France I'd choose Jackson every day of the week. Madigan is great bench cover because he can cover the other positions, and he's still a decent enough 10 to give us the option to get Sexton off the field in the 2nd half, that's where his value is.

They were discussing the versatility of the modern back on the highlights of this match on RTÉ and Ronan O'Gara said, and I'm inclined to agree, it's a great thing to have that versatility but at the end of the day it's a specialist who wins the match for you.

I have no doubt Madigan will travel and he's likely to get a good bit of game time, probably in a few positions, but if Sexton can't start or has to come off for any large portion of a match then it's Jackson next in line.

Zzippy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Boss is not going to start a game for Ireland. What's more important is how he plays off the bench which is where he usually does better. The same would be true for Marmion, not a chance he would start a game for us either.

Marmion's issues with his passing and decision makong are pretty obvious and he's coming off a season of poor form. I just don't see him having enough time to displace Boss at this stage, however I'd really like to see him come off the bench against Wales with enough time to be really tested, particularly important to see him play with Madigan.

A whole season, really? He was clearly tired towards the end of the season and under pressure from Cooney, but making stuff up to suit an argument isn't really fair to the guy. First half of the season he was excellent. Remember his try against Leinster?



In any case, the only reason Boss will travel is experience. He's not a better player, his form isn't better, he's slower, his kicking isn't up to much. The only advantage he has over Marmion is experience. Which is fine if that's what we need, but let's not distort the truth to make an argument for a player.

aimee1

Akrasia wrote: »

Every player makes mistakes. Even Dan carter screws up restarts every now and then. He was pretty rubbiish against Scotland last year

Madigan had a good game on Saturday over all and he offers more to the team than Jackson imo.

Sexton did a poor restart in twickenham last year, so thats him off the plane???

sydthebeat

Jackson 10 Madigan 12 ??

obviously not perfect, but is that a pairing that could compliment each other?
jacksons management and madigans line threat

could even be a possibility against Romania?

sydthebeat

aimee1 wrote: »

Sexton did a poor restart in twickenham last year, so thats him off the plane???

Carter made a balls of a restart in both recent games v australia

id forgive any out half one dodgy restart per game

vienne86

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes but Dan Carter is an elite out half every other day (or at least historically he has been).

Every other day Ian Madigan is an error-prone player who struggles at 10, both at international and provincial level. Look at how much Ireland's performance declined against England when Sexton went off early for Madigan in this year's 6 Nations.

Jackson is a better distributor and puts his teams in better positions to win. If Sexton went down with an injury and we needed someone to start against France I'd choose Jackson every day of the week. Madigan is great bench cover because he can cover the other positions, and he's still a decent enough 10 to give us the option to get Sexton off the field in the 2nd half, that's where his value is.

You're spot on IMO. I'm a great fan of Madigan, but he is a bit streaky - very good or very bad, and we really can't afford a very bad performance.

Jackson had a bad day with the boot last week, but I have seen him kick really really well for Ulster - I'd say he was rusty and should be able to put it right.