Ireland v Scotland - RWC Warm Up

Tox56

vienne86 wrote: »

I know I grumbled while at the Aviva yesterday - the fact that I posted from there shows there wasn't a lot happening on the pitch at times in the first half. BUT there is one huge positive from the game - NO INJURIES.

This was by far the most important thing about the whole game. The number of players slipping off tackles was annoying, but nothing compared to an injury to someone like SOB

total former

vienne86 wrote: »

I know I grumbled while at the Aviva yesterday - the fact that I posted from there shows there wasn't a lot happening on the pitch at times in the first half. BUT there is one huge positive from the game - NO INJURIES.

This is massive.

Another positive: this was a lot better warm ups for previous world cups.

We scored four great tries, OK we missed a lot of tackles but that can be worked upon, a few knockons, a few lapses in concentration, it's going to happen when guys haven't played in months.

smiley_face

total former wrote: »

Ah come on. What else is he going to say?

He could say that there are a few spots left, or that some guys are putting the 1st choice guys under pressure.
But instead he goes out of his way to say he's looking at everyone and that the training sessions give them information but the matches are the obvious test that they will be measured by.

He gave a lengthy appraisal of a few guys after the match,
Seems to really rate Zebo and Madigan highly, and said Fitzgerald looked good but missed a few opportunities.
Also praised Conan, but reading between the lines he isn't up to the required standard that the experienced guys are at.

Gotta say, the guy is as articulate a coach as I've ever heard.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/irish-news/joe-schmidt-hails-the-impact-of-ian-madigan-and-luke-fitzgerald-31453828.html

stephen_n

Alistair Careful Splendor wrote: »

Good post, a lot to agree with there. I said before these games started that people are going to read miles too much into performances, and it's turning out exactly that way.

That's true SOB did make 3 turnovers, as I said they played well and at times we did get at them in attack but they consistently managed to disrupt our ball at the breakdown, as Scottish teams always do and yes all 8 forwards need to clean out, but the back-row have the most responsibility in that area. In fairness though it wasn't helped by the amount of first up tackles missed and soft shoulders given, allowing the Scots to get over the gainline.

aimee1

Squire Jake wrote: »

Aside from Toner.

On what basis?

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

On what basis?

On the basis that that poster seems to really not like Toner.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

stephen_n wrote: »

In fairness though it wasn't helped by the amount of first up tackles missed and soft shoulders given, allowing the Scots to get over the gainline.

I can't remember where I saw/heard it yesterday but someone was suggesting that a lot of the missed tackles and bad defending looked like a few of the players were more concerned with not getting injured than actually defending.

I'm not sure there's any truth in that but there was definitely a massive drop in standard from our usual defensive effort.

Sugar Free

smiley_face wrote: »

He could say that there are a few spots left, or that some guys are putting the 1st choice guys under pressure.
But instead he goes out of his way to say he's looking at everyone and that the training sessions give them information but the matches are the obvious test that they will be measured by.

He gave a lengthy appraisal of a few guys after the match,
Seems to really rate Zebo and Madigan highly, and said Fitzgerald looked good but missed a few opportunities.
Also praised Conan, but reading between the lines he isn't up to the required standard that the experienced guys are at.

Gotta say, the guy is as articulate a coach as I've ever heard.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/irish-news/joe-schmidt-hails-the-impact-of-ian-madigan-and-luke-fitzgerald-31453828.html

A bit off topic but the Independent can't even get the scoreline right! 26-22 according to the article's sub-headline.

smiley_face

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I can't remember where I saw/heard it yesterday but someone was suggesting that a lot of the missed tackles and bad defending looked like a few of the players were more concerned with not getting injured than actually defending.

I'm not sure there's any truth in that but there was definitely a massive drop in standard from our usual defensive effort.

D'Arcy and Tuohy are two examples of players that needed to perform yet missed a lot of tackles, so I don't believe it was them saving themselves from injury.
Perhaps Toner or Bowe could be accused of not putting in their best effort, but would have to watch it again as first impression was it was just nerves and a bit of panic set in and too many mistakes put them on the back foot at times, difficult to look good when the game gets scrappy.

stephen_n

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I can't remember where I saw/heard it yesterday but someone was suggesting that a lot of the missed tackles and bad defending looked like a few of the players were more concerned with not getting injured than actually defending.

I'm not sure there's any truth in that but there was definitely a massive drop in standard from our usual defensive effort.

I don't know, not committing to tackles will get you injured far quicker, anyone who plays the game knows that. Think maybe there was just too many new combinations, not enough trust in the players either side of them. Wales just didn't test us defensively as much as Scotland did, in fairness they were offloading very well yesterday.

Tox56

stephen_n wrote: »

I don't know, not committing to tackles will get you injured far quicker, anyone who plays the game knows that. Think maybe there was just too many new combinations, not enough trust in the players either side of them. Wales just didn't test us defensively as much as Scotland did, in fairness they were offloading very well yesterday.

And, as I've said a million times, this was literally the first game of the season for most of these guys. Normally with the clubs we don't even care enough to broadcast the pre season games on TV because they're so meaningless and you can't expect much or anything in terms of quality when the players are just getting back into it, but these guys get their first game of the season broadcast to the world. The only thing im really going to take from this game is that there were no injuries

Buer

smiley_face wrote: »

Perhaps Toner or Bowe could be accused of not putting in their best effort, but would have to watch it again as first impression was it was just nerves and a bit of panic set in and too many mistakes put them on the back foot at times, difficult to look good when the game gets scrappy.

Don't understand the flak Toner is getting. He was in the thick of it a huge amount. He made a big number of tackles (joint highest with Conan and Henry). Fell off one in the first half but that was it, I think? Discipline was good. Went well in the set piece and ran a solid line out.

Nothing spectacular but a pretty comfortable showing overall. Doubt he'll be concerned at all.

LorMal

Every week, without fail, poor Gerry Thornley mentions that he has to watch the matches from the cheap seats. What's going on? Surely he is entitled to a press pass and therefore brilliant seats on the half way line? Someone needs to tell him.

KeithWoodshead

It's pretty hard to argue that Toner had anything other than a poor game.

Didn't make the noticeable errors that Touhy did but he was totally passive at the breakdown. There was one occasion where himself and Touhy gave the most feeble attempt at cleaning a Scottish back off a ball that summed up both their games.


He's got credit in the bank but with Ryan/Hendo behind him it won't last long if that kind of a performance is repeated imo

molloyjh

A lot of people getting overly worked up about that game. We didn't suffer any injuries and we have shown we haven't peaked too soon. It's all good lads and lassies.

Seriously though, there were a couple of things I think we can take from the game, and most are not massive shocks. This all comes from watching the game from the East Upper so I missed a good bit of the detailed stuff like the breakdown work.

Kilcoyne needs to work on his scrummaging but other than that was good. That was a positive display from him with that cloud hanging over Healy.

Strauss is really pushing Cronin for the 16 shirt in the big games. I know it was Cronins first hit out but Strauss I think has shown up really well and deserves a spot on the bench in one of the next two games.

Ross looked tired out there and unable to keep up with the pace of it. I know there's talk that he needs game time to get up to speed but hopefully Moore is back fit for the Wales game. White went well in the loose but not so much in the scrum.

Tuohy has played himself off the plane. He got some time last week and should have been able to hit the ground running this week, yet Ryan looked better last week. Tuohy would have been ahead of Ryan coming into camp based on experience with Joe and game time over the last season. It's starting to look like Ryan has overtaken him though. Great to see because Ryan fit and on form is a damn fine player.

Conan should be happy enough with his first cap. Seemed to hit a lot of rucks and made one eye catching break and offload. He was never going to be on the plane and he did miss a couple of tackles, but he's so young and only just getting into senior rugby it was a positive display overall I thought.

SOB and Henry were both candidate for MOTM ahead of Zebo for me. Both got through a huge amount of work and turned over a good few balls.

Boss without doubt mixed the good and the bad. Generally did his job but not with any real pace. And he threw a few absolute shocking passes and launched a few bad attempts from the boot. I thought we looked a lot better when Reddan came on. It wasn't a TOL performance or anything like that, but it has me thinking that I'd like to see Marmion get 20 minutes in one of the next two games to see how he compares to Boss.

Madigan was decent enough. We seemed to be playing a very simple one out runner game type for the most part (cards close to our chest) so it was hard to judge really. One truly awful restart (worst restart I've ever seen potentially) went hand in hand with some lovely work ahead of the Zebo try and an absolutely gorgeous cross field for the Fitz try. Went well from the tee with the exception of that last one which was very reminiscent of Edinburgh 5 months ago. But we played with too much ball in hand and didn't look to control territory really at all. Whether that was the plan or not I don't know, but we could have made things easier on ourselves at times with a little bit of tactical kicking from 10.

Not sure what to say about our centres. Darce is gone. Even some of the tackles he made were weak enough and allowed Scotland get in behind us. At one stage Strauss got a toe to a ball and Darce went chasing it and he just didn't have the legs at all. Strauss was impeded after hacking it through yet was still well ahead of Darce seconds later. It was such an awful shame to see another one of our greats end on that kind of note. And I was more than a little annoyed that Joe left him on for 80. After 60 or so Jackson should have come on and Mads moved to 12. Payne was solid. Made some good tackles and carried fairly well, but we need more from our centres. Hopefully we've been working on that and we'll see more in the RWC itself.

The back 3 was where I thought we'd shine. And the performances here were the most disappointing for me. Zebo did well, but still has elements of his game he needs to work on, particularly support at the breakdown where he can be not just utterly ineffectual but sometimes an out and out liability. Fitz was trying hard, but himself and Zebo just weren't linking up. There is potential there if they were to click where they could go really well though. It should also be remembered that Fitz only returned to contact training this week so was always going to be rusty. Despite that he was looking to get involved and worked really hard. Bowe was a big disappointment for me and I'm starting to wonder do we need to have a conversation about him. Has he really been good enough for us over the last 12+ months to guarantee his seat on the plane? All that credit he has built up would be worth a lot if he put in a good showing in these warm-ups, but I'm not sure how much it's really worth if he doesn't. Dave Kearney did more in his short appearance than the other 2 did all game.

In short I think Tuohy has fallen well behind Ryan, Darce has ruled himself out completely (even if he was only in with an outside chance), Zebo has put a lot of pressure on Jones and Bowe needs to step up or else he risks losing that credit he's built up over the years. Fitz needs more game time and Dave Kearney absolutely must get at least 20 minutes against Wales. I'd also like to see Marmion get tested but then if he isn't doing the business in training then that won't happen.

shuffol

Just saw the tries there, Madigan did beautifully for Zebo's try. Taking the ball to the line like that and keeping defenders guessing is something I've rarely seen him do before. Good to see.

shuffol

shuffol wrote: »

Just saw the tries there, Madigan did beautifully for Zebo's try. Taking the ball to the line like that and keeping defenders guessing is something I've rarely seen him do before. Good to see.

He did it twice in the passage of play, put guys through gaps. I think he'd quite a good game considering the guys immediately inside and outside of him.

LorMal

Madigan had an excellent game. 2 brilliant inside passes for the Zebo try, a superb cross field kick for the Fitz try, some very good kicking from hand, just one miss from the tee (some of his conversions were very difficult but he nailed them), good game management in general. If Sexton had that performance, he would be hailed on here.
SOB, Henry, Zebo, Cronin excellent. (Ross unfit but that's not a problem at the moment).
Set pieces very solid.
Boss slow but can do a job if needed. Touhy poor, Darcy looked unfit, as did POC (no issue). Payne just okay.
Kearney could be a bolter, though difficult to see who he would replace.

gamma001

Squire Jake wrote: »

Aside from Toner.

There is literally zero percent chance that anyone will be starting at lock in a big match beside Toner and POC given how well they played over the past 2+ years together. He might not have had a stormer but it's his first start of the season.

Plus Joe had a thing for Toner even at Leinster.

Buer

KeithWoodshead wrote: »

It's pretty hard to argue that Toner had anything other than a poor game.

Didn't make the noticeable errors that Touhy did but he was totally passive at the breakdown. There was one occasion where himself and Touhy gave the most feeble attempt at cleaning a Scottish back off a ball that summed up both their games.

Have you ever watched the bloke before? He's pretty much a non-entity in the rucks; he's 6'11"....he's not going to have a big impact there and never has.

He's in the side for his aerial work, defence and massively overlooked role in our maul where he's central.

smiley_face

Buer wrote: »

Have you ever watched the bloke before? He's pretty much a non-entity in the rucks; he's 6'11"....he's not going to have a big impact there and never has.

He's in the side for his aerial work, defence and massively overlooked role in our maul where he's central.

Plus he made some huge carries last season, I remember a few against NZ in particular that had me nearly jumping out of my seat.
If fit and firing similar to his displays over the last 12 months for Ireland then he deserves to start the big matches.
I'd even go so far as to say even if he doesn't play very well in the next two matches, if he showed any potential to kick on to good form I'd give him the nod against France.

shuffol

Once area I'd like to see Toner impose himself more in games is with his handling, we've seen glimpses of it in his career. The offload against Bath to Kearney I think in the Aviva, drawing his man and giving a nice pass to set up a try away to Scarlets at the start of last season, a lovely pop pass to help set up a try away to Montpellier in 2012 I think. He has it in his locker but we don't see it enough.

.ak

Just watched the game. Quick summary of players IMO...

The good:
SOB, Madigan, Payne. In particular I thought Payne is deserving of praise. I think a lot of people were looking for something else, but if you watch him carefully he was monsterous in tackle situations and rucking. He destroyed Cowan at one stage. He just did everything right and constantly fought at the breakdown. Madigan probably putting his best performance in as a 10 for a long time. Sob was my motm though.

The mixed:
Zeno, Fitz, Bowe. Zebo I thought was playing himself out of the squad in the first half. He did cover a lot of grass though and really offered a good attack but I just thought he seemed a little out of place and confused. Fitz I thought had a very good game off the ball, was like another flanker, I was impressed with his clear outs but his handling errors were unforgivable and I thought he was holding himself back in his carries - which is all fair enough for someone coming back from injury. Bowe had some nice touches but I felt defensively he was poor.

Some honourable mentions to kilcoyne, Henry and Conan but all in all I think it's fair to say nobody had a great game, but I don't think anyone had a terrible one either.

thomond2006

My analysis of Ireland's box kicks yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjnkV_tsjn0

OhHiMark

Alistair Careful Splendor wrote: »

The team that lines up against Italy and France will be virtually identical to the team that played the entire 6N. There's no way Zebo has played himself into the team at fullback or whatever, despite what Joe says there. The proof will be in selection.

So Zebo will be on the wing?

Tox56

OhHiMark wrote: »

So Zebo will be on the wing?

There is a good chance of it yes, but it could be any one of a number of players right now

wittycynic

Okay, this performance was far from the end of the world, but I would also have to say i think it was the worst performance I've seen from Ireland under Joe. We (and Joe's system) have become renowned for our defensive prowess, but Scotland made ground all day without having to try particularly hard. The thing is Scotland weren't very good at all. Their tries didn't involve any great ingenuity, we were simply a shambles defensively and were opened up easily.

There were some diabolical performances. Touhy was desperate in almost all facets of play. Ross usually offers very little outside of the scrum but yesterday was bad even by his standards. Boss was very disappointing and his performance seemed to suggest that there is grave cause for concern if his services are required in a match of consequence. Father time catches us all and yesterday conclusively proved that D'arcy's international career is over.

There were mixed performances as well. Fitz has had a lay off so it's difficult to judge him too harshly for the many inaccuracies in his performance, considering how hard he worked. Zebo looked excellent in attack but his lack of experience at the defensive positioning of a full back was exposed more than once. Conan was anonymous for large tracts but is a promising talent. Bowe was simply competent, but delivered little to suggest he is a better fit for the 14 shirt than Trimble, and indeed this has been the case for quite some time.

For me SOB delivered the best performance of the evening, which was accomplished if unspectacular. Madigan too has a good night out for the most part and ran our attack rather well when given the opportunity. Payne looked decent and contributed more than most in the backline.

Regrettably though the idea that we have considerable strength in depth and that other players can simply slot in to Joe's system with relatively little drop in quality has been shown up as a gross exaggeration. The drop from our first to second choice fifteen is significant, far more so than many on here are willing to admit.

stephen_n

wittycynic wrote: »

Regrettably though the idea that we have considerable strength in depth and that other players can simply slot in to Joe's system with relatively little drop in quality has been shown up as a gross exaggeration. The drop from our first to second choice fifteen is significant, far more so than many on here are willing to admit.

There is a monumental difference between having strength in depth and playing a make shift team out of those players and clearly you have confused the two. Having players of similar or slightly lower standard who can slot in and fill one or two holes is vastly different than what we saw yesterday. Expecting that team to function anywhere close to our regular starting 15 is strange. If NZ put out a team with 5 starting players, 5 second string and 5 third string, would you expect them to play like the all blacks test side?

wittycynic

stephen_n wrote: »

If NZ put out a team with 5 starting players, 5 second string and 5 third string, would you expect them to play like the all blacks test side?

I would expect them to convincingly beat Scotland, which recent experience tells us they can do pretty comfortably with an understrength side. I'm thrilled with Joe's performance so far but we don't really have strength in depth. In many positions the drop in standard to the next in line is monumental and yesterday only served to reinforce that.

molloyjh

wittycynic wrote: »

I would expect them to convincingly beat Scotland, which recent experience tells us they can do pretty comfortably with an understrength side. I'm thrilled with Joe's performance so far but we don't really have strength in depth. In many positions the drop in standard to the next in line is monumental and yesterday only served to reinforce that.

That's a gross exaggeration. We had our third choice LH, forth choice lock, debutant blindside, third choice halves, third choice inside centre and a FB who had only played at that level once (?) before. How many of those combinations are familiar? Luke Fitz only returned to contact training last week and a good few were playing the first game of the season.

I'm sick of using this word, but context people. Context.