Bought crashed car with no airbags

manya

So I bought an 03 car 4 years ago from a dealership. Car had just been through the nct and had failed on an issue with the wheel, which the dealer fixed. I've had no issues with the car until 3 weeks ago when it failed the nct on airbag indicators. Mechanic had a look and found the the wire for the airbag light had been bypased with tin foil and tape, drivers air bag not connected and the wrong passenger seat. Mechanic did as much as he could without diagnostics which I had done today and it revealed the car had been crashed and repaired also the passenger airbag not connected and not even the correct airbag for my car. I feel sick to my stomach that I've been driving this car for 4 years without any airbags. From a legal point of view do I have a leg to stand on so to speak

colm_mcm

Is the dealership still trading? Assuming they traded in the car and were unaware that it had been repaired, it would be very hard to prove otherwise.
Is this a main dealer (as in a dealer that sells a particular brand of car new)

Atlantic Dawn

How did it pass the previous NCT's? The tester is supposed to verify the airbag light comes on when they turn the key to turn on the ignition?

fancy pigeon

Have a look for the 156 thread in projects. A car that was crashed and repaired badly when new.

With a dog biscuit box for an airbag ecu

challengemaster

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

How did it pass the previous NCT's? The tester is supposed to verify the airbag light comes on when they turn the key to turn on the ignition?

Supposed to

manya

Dealer is still trading as far as im aware and deals in used cars. Car was at the nct in 2011 and 2013 and passed both times. I didnt put the car through last year as id lost my job and couldn't afford too. At no point since I've had this car could someone tamper with it either

Stheno

manya wrote: »

Dealer is still trading as far as im aware and deals in used cars. Car was at the nct in 2011 and 2013 and passed both times. I didnt put the car through last year as id lost my job and couldn't afford too. At no point since I've had this car could someone tamper with it either

Did the airbag light just come on recently then?

manya

There was no indication that there was a problem untill it went for test.

CIP4

Stheno wrote: »

Did the airbag light just come on recently then?

Sounds like the airbag light was tampered with so it would never come on even on start up hence how the nct found it. So the bulb must be removed or disconnect / shorted.

colm_mcm

I think the nct procedure might have changed, where before you would pass if no airbag light came on, now they have to see the light go on then off.

fancy pigeon

CIP4 wrote: »

Sounds like the airbag light was tampered with so it would never come on even on start up hence how the nct found it. So the bulb must be removed or disconnect / shorted.

It has to be working for the nct since a few years ago

CIP4

fancy pigeon wrote: »

It has to be working for the nct since a few years ago

Well provided that is they check that ever ignition light works on every car on start up I'm not saying they do or don't but if all other lights were working it might of been easy enough for a tester to miss the airbag light not coming on. Whereas as this one was well on the ball. But I suppose they could of made up some electrics to trick the system into thinking it has airbags but would be a lot easier to make sure the light doesn't come on by making sure it can't if you get me.

Special Circumstances

fancy pigeon wrote: »

Have a look for the 156 thread in projects. A car that was crashed and repaired badly when new.

With a dog biscuit box for an airbag ecu

That's ruff. First thread I thought of actually when I saw this thread :pac:

colm_mcm

I dont think anybody can point fingers at the nct or testers in this case. The people who "repaired" the car deliberately got around the airbag light coming on.

Supergurrier

fancy pigeon wrote: »

Have a look for the 156 thread in projects. A car that was crashed and repaired badly when new.

With a dog biscuit box for an airbag ecu

Bonio ?

Mech1

Unfortunately, 4 years on since buying it, unless you go total forensic scientist on it, your left with the problem to deal with yourself. No one, dealer or otherwise is even going to consider entertaining a complaint at this stage.

Get a good Indy mechanic to repair the shortcut and then diagnose the real problem. Could be a simple fix or could be a write off nobody knows yet.

Stheno

Mech1 wrote: »

Unfortunately, 4 years on since buying it, unless you go total forensic scientist on it, your left with the problem to deal with yourself. No one, dealer or otherwise is even going to consider entertaining a complaint at this stage.

.

Agree with this OP

CiniO

Mech1 wrote: »

Unfortunately, 4 years on since buying it, unless you go total forensic scientist on it, your left with the problem to deal with yourself. No one, dealer or otherwise is even going to consider entertaining a complaint at this stage.

Get a good Indy mechanic to repair the shortcut and then diagnose the real problem. Could be a simple fix or could be a write off nobody knows yet.

Well if dealer sold car in such condition to OP, then should be responsible.
Dealers are professionalls in car trade, and they should not be able to say "we didn't know it was crashed". They should be able to verify before they sell vehicle, and if they can't, they will have to take the hit.

However different matter is how OP is going to prove now, that crash happened before he bought the vehicle. I hardly can see a way to prove that unfortunately.

colm_mcm

A dealer can't reasonably be expected to always check if someone has bypassed warning systems before they sell a car.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

A dealer can't reasonably be expected to always check if someone has bypassed warning systems before they sell a car.

Really?
I though that dealer selling a car should be able to guarantee that car is tip-top.
Otherwise what's the point in buying from dealer?
You can buy privately usually for much lower price...

unkel

What car is it? Chances are it is worth very little at this stage (12 years old)

If so, I'd just scrap it and move on

colm_mcm

CiniO wrote: »

Really?
I though that dealer selling a car should be able to guarantee that car is tip-top.
Otherwise what's the point in buying from dealer?
You can buy privately usually for much lower price...

A dealer isn't going to strip the car down and put it back together when prepping it for sale. Of course there would be some checks done, but not to the extent that they could guarantee that there were absolutely no hidden gremlins.

Granted, some main dealer franchises would have a 100 point checklist that might cover airbag lights being missing. If the cowboy repairer had run a simple circuit that would make the light go on then off, this wouldn't be noticed though.
I don't believe many dealers would run a diagnostic scan on cars pre-sale.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

A dealer isn't going to strip the car down and put it back together when prepping it for sale. Of course there would be some checks done, but not to the extent that they could guarantee that there were absolutely no hidden gremlins.

Granted, some main dealer franchises would have a 100 point checklist that might cover airbag lights being missing. If the cowboy repairer had run a simple circuit that would make the light go on then off, this wouldn't be noticed though.
I don't believe many dealers would run a diagnostic scan on cars pre-sale.

Well in my own opinion, if people who sell cars for living, can not be bothered to find out that car was crashed and airbags fired, and now missing, then there's something deeply wrong with the system.

Seems ridiculous that you can buy a car from a dealer which was crashed and is missing major safety features like airbags.


You just confirmed to me, that buying a vehicle from a motor dealer makes absolutely no sense at all, and buying privately is the best way and really only way to go.

Stheno

CiniO wrote: »

Well in my own opinion, if people who sell cars for living, can not be bothered to find out that car was crashed and airbags fired, and now missing, then there's something deeply wrong with the system.

Seems ridiculous that you can buy a car from a dealer which was crashed and is missing major safety features like airbags.


You just confirmed to me, that buying a vehicle from a motor dealer makes absolutely no sense at all, and buying privately is the best way and really only way to go.

This wasn't a main dealer, there is a difference between used car dealers and main dealers.

CiniO

Stheno wrote: »

This wasn't a main dealer, there is a difference between used car dealers and main dealers.

What is the difference?
(Except in case of buying brand new car which is guaranteed to be 100%)

If there's no laws requiring motor traders, (whether they are just a Joe selling few cars out of his garden, or main franchised dealer) to guarantee that vehicles is fit for purpose, then I can't see any difference to buying from one or the other. You might end up the same bad a buying privately.
Best to buy privately upon properly checking vehicle yourself - that will come the cheapest and safest.

Stheno

CiniO wrote: »

What is the difference?
(Except in case of buying brand new car which is guaranteed to be 100%)

If there's no laws requiring motor traders, (whether they are just a Joe selling few cars out of his garden, or main franchised dealer) to guarantee that vehicles is fit for purpose, then I can't see any difference to buying from one or the other. You might end up the same bad a buying privately.
Best to buy privately upon properly checking vehicle yourself - that will come the cheapest and safest.

Well I bought my 11 year old honda from a main dealer (of another marque). They offered a warranty on all cars they sold regardless of age, put it through the nct and serviced it. Now this is a very reputable garage, but when I asked them why they were offering the warranty said that from a reputation viewpoint they had to and that SIMI wouldn't look well on it either if they didn't.

Then you've the likes of dealers on the Naas Road who sell stuff sold as seen with no NCT/Warranty/service.

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

Well in my own opinion, if people who sell cars for living, can not be bothered to find out that car was crashed and airbags fired, and now missing, then there's something deeply wrong with the system.

Seems ridiculous that you can buy a car from a dealer which was crashed and is missing major safety features like airbags.


You just confirmed to me, that buying a vehicle from a motor dealer makes absolutely no sense at all, and buying privately is the best way and really only way to go.

Setting aside the OPs case because the light apparently doesnt come on at all, but how would you expect a dealer to know anything is up if it has been bypassed and all appears ok?

Guy:Incognito

sugarman wrote: »

Surely popping in an ODB Reader and running a quick diagnostic would show it?

If it has been bypassed and the car thinks its working then no.


If you go to look at a car that has a fault that shows up after 30 miles of driving say, and the owner clears it before you get there. Even if you drive 20 miles then stick a code reader on it, you'll be none the wiser.

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

if people who sell cars for living, can not be bothered to find out that car was crashed and airbags fired, and now missing, then there's something deeply wrong with the system.

They are car sales people for Pete's sake! They aren't engineers commissioned to do a detailed forensic check up. They have to stand over the car and provide a warranty though. Which by all means, they did in this case (fixing the issue the car failed the NCT over)

CiniO

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Setting aside the OPs case because the light apparently doesnt come on at all, but how would you expect a dealer to know anything is up if it has been bypassed and all appears ok?

Firstly if vehicle was crashed, then it should be obvious.
You can get paint thickness detectors which will show you easily if vehicle was resprayed. That should be very first thing garage does with the car when taking it as trade in, etc...
Once they know it's been in a accident, then checking airbags should be next step. It's not that much work to actually physically check if they are really there.
In general, I can definitely say, that if they wanted, they could check every car up to every detail.
But why would they bother if they don't have to.
Surely they can sell a car like OP bought, which was crashed and had airbag lights disables with tinfoil, and just say they didn't know.
They are meant to be professionals in car trade and they should know.

And yes - I understand that in very small minority of cases there might be hidden defects that no one can detect. But in that case they should just take the risk and still take responsibility for it.

IMO motor dealer selling a car should be able to guarantee that vehicle is accident free, not clocked, and is fully operational and 100% fit for purpose. And there should be laws forcing them to do it.

visual

Seen a car that had abs warning light wired to oil lamp.

The abs unit was faulty but instead of fixing it someone tampered with the display.

Was only spotted because the back lighting bulb went out and display removed to change bulb and notice added wire to abs bulb.

There are some real ass holes out there

visual

Seen a car that had abs warning light wired to oil lamp.

The abs unit was faulty but instead of fixing it someone tampered with the display.

Was only spotted because the back lighting bulb went out and display removed to change bulb and notice added wire to abs bulb.

There are some real ass holes out there

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Firstly if vehicle was crashed, then it should be obvious.
You can get paint thickness detectors which will show you easily if vehicle was resprayed. That should be very first thing garage does with the car when taking it as trade in, etc...
Once they know it's been in a accident, then checking airbags should be next step. It's not that much work to actually physically check if they are really there.
In general, I can definitely say, that if they wanted, they could check every car up to every detail.
But why would they bother if they don't have to.
Surely they can sell a car like OP bought, which was crashed and had airbag lights disables with tinfoil, and just say they didn't know.
They are meant to be professionals in car trade and they should know.

And yes - I understand that in very small minority of cases there might be hidden defects that no one can detect. But in that case they should just take the risk and still take responsibility for it.

IMO motor dealer selling a car should be able to guarantee that vehicle is accident free, not clocked, and is fully operational and 100% fit for purpose. And there should be laws forcing them to do it.

We don't know what type of dealer the OP bought from. Was it a main dealer franchise, a large 2nd hand dealer in a location for years or a guy selling from a hut where the name changes more often than his socks. The first 2 will most likely do the required checks the last will be joining wires.

Doesn't really matter who you buy from you should always get someone more knowledgeable to check the car over.

9935452

manya wrote: »

So I bought an 03 car 4 years ago from a dealership. Car had just been through the nct and had failed on an issue with the wheel, which the dealer fixed. I've had no issues with the car until 3 weeks ago when it failed the nct on airbag indicators. Mechanic had a look and found the the wire for the airbag light had been bypased with tin foil and tape, drivers air bag not connected and the wrong passenger seat. Mechanic did as much as he could without diagnostics which I had done today and it revealed the car had been crashed and repaired also the passenger airbag not connected and not even the correct airbag for my car. I feel sick to my stomach that I've been driving this car for 4 years without any airbags. From a legal point of view do I have a leg to stand on so to speak

It would be impossible to prove that the garage did anything wrong at this stage or even knew about it .
Its only in the last few years that the nct boys started looking for airbag light. up til then lads were just pulling out the bulb.
Then they started doing other dodgy botches like a delay relay , power turns on after a few seconds delay it switches off again.
Out of spite id trade the car back to the boys and let it be their problem.

Interslice

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think the nct procedure might have changed, where before you would pass if no airbag light came on, now they have to see the light go on then off.

Not very strongly worded, but going by the 2012 manual they should have been tested and failed in the 2013 test. Easily missed by a tester doing 12 cars a day or whatever they do.

MALFUNCTION INDICATORS
Method of Testing
Ensure the malfunction indicators for Airbags, Electronic Stability Control (ESC) and Electronic Braking System (EBS) / Anti-Lock
Braking System (ABS) and Parking Brake malfunction indicator are in working order.

ITEM REASONS FOR FAILURE
Malfunction Indicators for Airbags,
Electronic Stability Control (ESC), Anti-
Lock Braking System (ABS/Electronic
Braking System (EBS) and Parking
Brake.
1 Not working or indicates a defect in the relevant system.

colm_mcm

CiniO wrote: »

Well in my own opinion, if people who sell cars for living, can not be bothered to find out that car was crashed and airbags fired, and now missing, then there's something deeply wrong with the system.

Seems ridiculous that you can buy a car from a dealer which was crashed and is missing major safety features like airbags.


You just confirmed to me, that buying a vehicle from a motor dealer makes absolutely no sense at all, and buying privately is the best way and really only way to go.

There are many other scenarios where buying from a dealer and having a warranty is useful. In this case there was a deliberate hiding of a fault by persons unknown that resulted in the OP not finding out for years that they didn't have working airbags. This is an unusual situation.

You bought your civic from a dealer didn't you?

GavMan

Hard to think some people think the OP should swallow this kind of crap!! God forbid that your own wives/kids/families were killed in a car like this and you didn't know about the airbags. Damn right you'd be speaking to a solicitor and you wouldn't give 2 hoots about how many years had gone by since the purchase. If there was an accident resulting in death or injury, this would be criminal negligence. No doubt about it.

The fact of the matter is the OP was sold something which is not fit for purpose. The OP, as a layman of the motor trade, managed to get the car diagnosed handy enough. Why could the dealer not do so or be expected to do so before the selling it? Because it cuts into his margin, thats why.

Its total BS. This attitude is the reason shady dealers can prosper.

mickdw

GavMan wrote: »

Hard to think some people think the OP should swallow this kind of crap!! God forbid that your own wives/kids/families were killed in a car like this and you didn't know about the airbags. Damn right you'd be speaking to a solicitor and you wouldn't give 2 hoots about how many years had gone by since the purchase. If there was an accident resulting in death or injury, this would be criminal negligence. No doubt about it.

The fact of the matter is the OP was sold something which is not fit for purpose. The OP, as a layman of the motor trade, managed to get the car diagnosed handy enough. Why could the dealer not do so or be expected to do so before the selling it? Because it cuts into his margin, thats why.

Its total BS. This attitude is the reason shady dealers can prosper.

Agree but how do you prove it at this stage.
Can op prove he didn't crash the car since?
Short of having a copy of an Engineers report on the car from a time before it was bought and description the same faults, I don't see how this can be pined on the garage at this stage

Squidgy Black

GavMan wrote: »

Hard to think some people think the OP should swallow this kind of crap!! God forbid that your own wives/kids/families were killed in a car like this and you didn't know about the airbags. Damn right you'd be speaking to a solicitor and you wouldn't give 2 hoots about how many years had gone by since the purchase. If there was an accident resulting in death or injury, this would be criminal negligence. No doubt about it.

The fact of the matter is the OP was sold something which is not fit for purpose. The OP, as a layman of the motor trade, managed to get the car diagnosed handy enough. Why could the dealer not do so or be expected to do so before the selling it? Because it cuts into his margin, thats why.

Its total BS. This attitude is the reason shady dealers can prosper.

.
Almost impossible to prove after four years of ownership, if it had been discovered earlier then yeah the OP would have a much better recourse against the dealer, but trying to prove after four years that in fact it the car was like this when it left the dealers forecourt would be a miracle.

Nody

GavMan wrote: »

Hard to think some people think the OP should swallow this kind of crap!! God forbid that your own wives/kids/families were killed in a car like this and you didn't know about the airbags. Damn right you'd be speaking to a solicitor and you wouldn't give 2 hoots about how many years had gone by since the purchase. If there was an accident resulting in death or injury, this would be criminal negligence. No doubt about it.

The fact of the matter is the OP was sold something which is not fit for purpose. The OP, as a layman of the motor trade, managed to get the car diagnosed handy enough. Why could the dealer not do so or be expected to do so before the selling it? Because it cuts into his margin, thats why.

Its total BS. This attitude is the reason shady dealers can prosper.

Or how it would play out in reality; Solicitor "So it passed NCT twice after you bought it?" "Yes". Solicitor "Ok, here's my bill for wasting my time".

The fact it passed NCT twice means if anything it makes it appear as the OP has tried to pull a quick one to fix it after they broke for any outsider and they can simply point to the fact it passed NCT as proof of that fact. Now that is not true but what is true and how things appear always ends up on how things appear.

show me the money.1

What dealer did you buy it from?

kirving

It doesn't matter who actually left the car in this state, the fact is that the dealer sold a car which has one of its primary safety systems disabled. Whether the dealer knew about or not, they are the ones who have to be held responsible here, as unfair as that may be to the dealer in certain complex cases such as this.

The customer is buying a car from a professional car dealer, they have to be allowed in law make the assumption that the car they are buying wont some day kill them because of negligence down the line.

I'd imagine a crash serious enough to have set the airbags off may have been reported to the Gardai. If that's the case, the paper trail between the person who crashed it and the OP might be very short, and even though he cant prove it four years later, a call from the Gards would be the least I'd expect to everyone involved with the car.

Pov06

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

How did it pass the previous NCT's? The tester is supposed to verify the airbag light comes on when they turn the key to turn on the ignition?

The connector wires are bodged. The light would still come on when you turn off ignition.

goochy

unfortunatly no legal redress - you cant after 4.yrs prove the dealer was at fault just as if the car had chassis damage you couldnt prove it was like that when new.

GavMan

mickdw wrote: »

Agree but how do you prove it at this stage.
Can op prove he didn't crash the car since?
Short of having a copy of an Engineers report on the car from a time before it was bought and description the same faults, I don't see how this can be pined on the garage at this stage

You can sure there's either a police report on it or an insurance record to be found somewhere in relation to it.

Squidgy Black

GavMan wrote: »

You can sure there's either a police report on it or an insurance record to be found somewhere in relation to it.

Again, also no record that this stuff wasn't repaired at the time. And the OP has no proof that he didn't remove the airbags himself etc or subsequently crash the car, especially since they'll be able to turn around and say it passed the NCT.

Wouldn't be worth the legal fees.

ofcork

Was the op driving around in a car that was last nctd in 2013?

slimjimmc

ofcork wrote: »

Was the op driving around in a car that was last nctd in 2013?

Apparently, but it's not particularly relevant to the issue at hand. Even if he tested it last year he still may not have become aware of the missing airbag until his recent NCT.

ironclaw

Are people actually entertaining the idea that the OP might have legal recourse after 4 years?

FortySeven

ironclaw wrote: »

Are people actually entertaining the idea that the OP might have legal recourse after 4 years?

They are, it's quite funny. Also the idea that dealers should be testing paint thickness for crash damage etc, etc.

What planet do these people live on. Stuff like this happens daily, it's not pretty but it will always be so. You got ripped off. It happens to us all at some point. Move along ffs.

unkel

OP is pretty lucky he didn't cause any serious crash in his car, while it was not tested and of which the safety features had been tempered with. The insurance company would certainly have found out both these facts during their investigation

That would have been beyond "some explaining to do"