Tenant running Montessori from our house

Dee24

Hi All

We are accidental landlords, and are renting our house out down the country. We are currently renting, and saving for a new house.

The rent we are getting in does not cover the mortgage for our house.

We were visiting friends at the weekend back down where our house is, and found out that one of our friends nephews goes to Montessori - in our old house.

The tenant is running this for 7-8 kids from our house.

Having gone through the rental agreement, under the Residential Tenancies Act, 1st Sept 2004, states "The Tenant shall not carry out in the property any profession or business whatsoever whether for gain or otherwise. Should the Tenant contravene this regulation, this Agreement shall terminate immediately, but without prejudice to any antecedent rights of the Landlord."

Personally, we would just prefer to increase the rent, and make sure that she is correctly insured for running this business. As otherwise she is an OK tenant, she keeps the place impeccably, but can be a bit demanding at times.

She has been there for 1 year and 2months , and renewed the lease in May for a second year. We had wanted to increase the rent in May from €725 to €780 inline with other properties in the area, she declined, so we agreed at €750.

Personally, with her running this business from the premises, I would look to increase the rent to €950 a month.

Would we be within our rights to do this?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Eric Cartman

simple : 950 a month and proof of insurance or an eviction notice. You can't be having that sort of carry-on in your house unknown.

salamanca22

No you cannot raise the rent again until may of 2016. Landlords may only review the rent once per 12 month period.

If you feel the tenant is breaking the lease then you will have to furnish proper notice of intent to end the lease. I have no idea how legal it is to run the business from the house but I do know the tenant cannot insure the building, only the landlord can as only they have insurable interest in it.

Eric Cartman

salamanca22 wrote: »

No you cannot raise the rent again until may of 2016. Landlords may only review the rent once per 12 month period.

If you feel the tenant is breaking the lease then you will have to furnish proper notice of intent to end the lease. I have no idea how legal it is to run the business from the house but I do know the tenant cannot insure the building, only the landlord can as only they have insurable interest in it.

tenant can have public liability, and I'm sure theres some other insurance product for people looking after kids. The landlord can't be financially responsible if a kid pulls a shelf down on themselves etc..

the landlord may already have had a rent review but with the business operation the goalposts have moved and the OP could terminate the tenancy with notice and redraw a new agreement at a higher price.

snubbleste

Tbh OP, if you are happy with her as a tenant.. leave it as it is.

Pipmae

snubbleste wrote: »

Tbh OP, if you are happy with her as a tenant.. leave it as it is.

+1

She's not exactly make millions running a Montessori for 7 to 8 kids.

18MonthsaSlave

for business the Rates liability falls to the landlord if not paid by tenant.
Change of use planning permission needs to be applied for as it is no longer a residential unit.

Mrs OBumble

And be careful, is the kid really going to proper Montessori (which is a very specific, structured kind of early childhood education) or is it really just child-minding. One indicator of the difference is whether it's 7-8 kids at the same time, or is it perhaps that many over the course of a week, with smaller numbers at any given time?

If it's the latter, then it may not count as running a business in the same kind of way.

If it is a full Montessori, then there may be regulatory issues too: I would like to think that it's unlikely that anyone could get a licence to operate a full centre in a domestic house (very unlikely to have child sized toilets etc) - but I don't know how strict the regs are in this country or how strictly they are applied, so it might just be possible.

ComfortKid

OP you sound like you are just hungry for more money to cover your mortgage.
Is she making enough out of this montessori to pay the increased rent and insurance you will be forcing her to get?

athtrasna

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

for business the Rates liability falls to the landlord if not paid by tenant.
Change of use planning permission needs to be applied for as it is no longer a residential unit.

This times a hundred. The rent is the least of your worries. You need to act on this immediately. She needs to close or move the business, either way she needs to cease operating a business from your house immediately.

I would make a phone call asap and follow it up with a registered letter.

jimmynokia

7-8 kids a week at what per child?
Say if one of those kids have an accident, I think the OP has a right to be concerned. Does the Mark Pollock case not ring a bell..
Windows, stairs and kids. Is there suitable protection in place..

If the tenant is good and has public liability insurance and has met criteria and is registered etc perhaps things should be left as is but I'd be looking for a bit more to be fair. 7/8 kids obviously use up more utilities etc.

athtrasna

jimmynokia wrote: »

If the tenant is good and has public liability insurance and has met criteria and is registered etc perhaps things should be left as is but I'd be looking for a bit more to be fair. 7/8 kids obviously use up more utilities etc.

Without rates being paid and appropriate planning permission it's operating illegally. The landlord is the person who'll get into trouble for these, not the tenant.

Dee24

Thanks Athtrasna you've made some great points and we will be following up with this on Tuesday (the house is let through an agency)

To the poster who said we're money grabbing. This is the least of our concerns, the tenant has taken a contract on false pretenses and is generating an income from this, which is in breach of contract. As another poster has stated what happens if she is uninsured and a child is injured in her care. The liability falls on us as landlords for a business which we were unaware of.

ABajaninCork

ComfortKid wrote: »

OP you sound like you are just hungry for more money to cover your mortgage.
Is she making enough out of this montessori to pay the increased rent and insurance you will be forcing her to get?

I don't think you understand what's at stake here.

Tenant is running a business from a private house. Without his previous knowledge OR his permission. I'm not sure if she has the appropriate insurance or the licences to be childminding (I'm pretty sure she hasn't).

The landlord is liable through HIS insurance if anything happens.

There's also a change of use from private dwelling to commercial premises for which planning permission needs to be sought.

There will be serious problems with the landlord's mortgage provider if they find out a business is being run from the house.

And most leases I've seen preclude the running of a business from the house without prior knowledge or consent.

Personally, I'd be looking to get rid. This sounds like a can of worms.

Jeju

Childminding 7 children at once, I hope she has someone helping as if there is a fire and have to evacuate she can only carry two?

tayto lover

She's probably running the Montessori school to pay the rent in the first place so leave well enough alone. Fair play to her.

Brian Lighthouse

Contact the tenant directly.
Explain who you are.
Ask her to remind you of who she cleared it with to open a school/creche in your house. Was it myself/wife/husband?
Then ask her to show you all the relevant documents - as above - or send on copies and explain that you will be getting advice on the matter due to.....(insert some valid concerns from above comments).
Let the ball in her court for a small while.

Don't be rash, let her get back to you.

ABajaninCork

tayto lover wrote: »

She's probably running the Montessori school to pay the rent in the first place so leave well enough alone. Fair play to her.

Yes. IF the tenant has the qualifications, licences, staffing and appropriate insurance.

But I'd lay money she has none of these. So no. She needs to go IMO.

tayto lover

ABajaninCork wrote: »

Yes. IF the tenant has the qualifications, licences, staffing and appropriate insurance.

But I'd lay money she has none of these. So no. She needs to go IMO.

Why would it matter as long as she's paying the rent?
Just because someone is making a few quid doesn't make the argument for rising the rent imo.
Sounds greedy to do so.

athtrasna

Please no more "leave it be" advice. It has already been established that the tenant is operating illegally without at least planning permission and rates paid, leaving the OP massively exposed.

Mod

Brian Lighthouse

athtrasna wrote: »

Please no more "leave it be" advice. It has already been established that the tenant is operating illegally without at least planning permission and rates paid, leaving the OP massively exposed.

Mod

I see your point, but I don't see where it has been established that the tenant is operating illegally just yet.
Just my opinion on reading all the posts.

ABajaninCork

tayto lover wrote: »

Why would it matter as long as she's paying the rent?
Just because someone is making a few quid doesn't make the argument for rising the rent imo.
Sounds greedy to do so.

You're still not getting it. To mind so many children, the tenant needs to be registered.

She then has to show she has the proper facilities to properly take care of said children.

She also has to show she has proper First Aid certs, access to a doctor if required, and proper provisions in case of fire. As this is a private dwelling, I know that wouldn't be the case.

Oh yes - she has to have properly qualified staff and public liability insurance - at least 2M worth...

And you think the LL's being greedy?? Give me a break. Would YOU put your children with someone unqualified and unlicenced???

salamanca22

tayto lover wrote: »

Why would it matter as long as she's paying the rent?
Just because someone is making a few quid doesn't make the argument for rising the rent imo.
Sounds greedy to do so.

So the tenant should be left to earn some cash while leaving the landlord with a massive liability? In what world is that fair?

a 28 day notice should be furnished next working day which is Tuesday.

Usually 42 days would be required but because the tenant is not fulfilling their obligations then a short period of 28 days can be used. You should also mention that the business is to cease immediately.

athtrasna

Brian Lighthouse wrote: »

I see your point, but I don't see where it has been established that the tenant is operating illegally just yet.
Just my opinion on reading all the posts.

Because the house doesn't have planning permission for commercial use for starters.

tayto lover

ABajaninCork wrote: »

You're still not getting it. To mind so many children, the tenant needs to be registered.

She then has to show she has the proper facilities to properly take care of said children.

She also has to show she has proper First Aid certs, access to a doctor if required, and proper provisions in case of fire. As this is a private dwelling, I know that wouldn't be the case.

Oh yes - she has to have properly qualified staff and public liability insurance - at least 2M worth...

And you think the LL's being greedy?? Give me a break. Would YOU put your children with someone unqualified and unlicenced???

But how do you know she hasn't all those things?
AND it was the OP who suggested rising the rent so he obviously didn't seem too worried even if she hadn't.

katydid

ComfortKid wrote: »

OP you sound like you are just hungry for more money to cover your mortgage.
Is she making enough out of this montessori to pay the increased rent and insurance you will be forcing her to get?

That's rubbish. Anyone would be right to be concerned if they rent a property to an individual on the basis of a private rental and the person decides to run a business. I'm no lawyer, but there are all sorts of legal ramifications here in terms of insurance etc. It needs to be sorted one way or the other immediately.

5uspect

tayto lover wrote: »

But how do you know she hasn't all those things?
AND it was the OP who suggested rising the rent so he obviously didn't seem too worried even if she hadn't.

How would a tenant be even able to get planning permission on the OP's property?

tayto lover

5uspect wrote: »

How would a tenant be even able to get planning permission on the OP's property?

Planning permission??
She's minding a few children.

katydid

tayto lover wrote: »

Planning permission??
She's minding a few children.

I doubt if someone who is running a montessori school would be too happy to be described as "minding a few children".

Montessori teachers are qualified people who run an intensive learning programme.

Stheno

katydid wrote: »

I doubt if someone who is running a montessori school would be too happy to be described as "minding a few children".

Montessori teachers are qualified people who run an intensive learning programme.

And need appropriate qualifications and insurance.

Can't see a tenant getting public liability for running a business from a place they rent from a private landlord in a private house

ABajaninCork

Families are one thing. Having the responsibility of minding other people's kids quite another. Don't confuse the two.

athtrasna

Fortyseven please do not post on this thread again. Accommodation and property is for helpful posts not anti establishment rants

Mod

Greenmachine

Op really you should not be happy about this situation. The house is not equipped for this amount of movement, not to mention all the wear and tear. Has the tenant removed any of the original furniture etc. Are you dealing directly with the tenant or doing it through an agency. Is the tenancy registered with the tenancies board. Assuming you have fulfilling all your obligation, I would be sending your tenant a cease and desist letter. It is common enough for a landlord to ask that a tenant seek permission before they install utilities, like upc or home phone. What if your tenant want to install a jungle gym next or dig up your garden to put in a sandpit will you be okay with this too?

newacc2015

The Residential tenancies act of 2004, doesnt cover Business letting and is for "residential tenancies". Running a Montessori out of a private home is not residential. So I seriously doubt the act applies. You might be able to end your contract immediately between the tenant, as its not your contract was supposed to cover. I would go to a solicitor and discuss it.

Citizen information have the rules on running a child care facility. I seriously doubt they went to the trouble of following the rules of it. So I imagine they are breaking the law. The law seems to state any more than 3 children is a child care facility. Having a 2/3 children in a house can cause so some serious wear and tear. I cant imagine what 8 is doing to it eg crayons on walls, damage to wood work. But the worst thing for me is the ****ing you over on the rent increase

Dont care about ours and their "she is just trying to make a living etc mindset". The tenant is breaking the law, facilitating the black economy and should be evicted. Go to a solicitor or become a member of the IPOA and see what they say

Rantan

Op you are at very serious risk here. I have recent experience of something similar with my tenant subletting to run a small business. As a minimum your house insurer will not cover you as the purpose of use of the house has changed. Doesn't matter is she had insurance. She can't cover your house. This is wrong on SO many levels. You need to stop this now and please do not listen to any advise telling you "be grand" ...it's not. Child has an accident..parents claim against her .good chance she doesn't have proper insuracne...guess who mammy and daddy come after?

CollyFlower

That's a bit cheeky of them! You should just call in and confront them.... As others have said 'it's a residential rental' not a business!

newacc2015

CollyFlower wrote: »

That's a bit cheeky of them! You should just call in and confront them.... As others have said 'it's a residential rental' not a business!

They dont care they have been breaking the law so far. What till confronting them do? They are going to close their Business with the landlord calling around. Put everything in writing and get the solicitors involved.

Mrs OBumble

katydid wrote: »

I doubt if someone who is running a montessori school would be too happy to be described as "minding a few children".

Montessori teachers are qualified people who run an intensive learning programme.

All the op has to go on so far is a statement from a customer that it's 7-8 children, s/he doesn't know if they're all there at once. It may just be childminding on a legal scale, or it may be illegal on all sorts of fronts.

I would start with a phone call to the county childcare committee, to find out if the tenant is registered as a childminder.

I would also keep in mind that if you go in all guns blazing and insist that she stops immediately , then there will be probably 5-6 families in the village who lose their childcare, so cannot go to work, all at once. It could make you very unpopular in the area.

Fix the problem, for sure, but make sure you understand what it is before you act.

5uspect

tayto lover wrote: »

Planning permission??
She's minding a few children.

Sheesh, you asked how it was known the tenant hadn't planning permission. Then you ignore that and go back to, "ah sure it's just a few children".

What if it was a guy scrapping old cars? She's running a business, apparently calling it a School, out of the OP's house potentially putting the OP in a lot of legal hot water.

Bicycle

Take a look at the Early Childhood Ireland website http://www.earlychildhoodireland.ie/work/operating-childcare-service/setting-childcare-service/ This is the umbrella group for childcare providers. The page I've linked you to, gives details of how to set up a childcare service and details of rules and regs.

It would appear that the facility in your house is not compliant.

If necessary, you could give Early Childhood Ireland a buzz on Tuesday.

Dee24

Thanks all for your help. Yeah we are seriously worried now about what she's doing.

Its definitely a case that we're more concerned about the liability falling back on us if a child she is minding had an accident where the house is not correctly insured for business purposes and all the potential health & safety risks etc.

Another question - as I've said previously, we are accidental landlords, we had to relocate from the area to Dublin for work, and it doesnt look likely we will ever get back to live in the house ourselves.

Because the rent we are receiving doesnt even cover our mortgage repayments, and we are also paying rent ourselves - I'm concerned about having to remove her from the house.

When we originally moved back to Dublin, it took us two months to get that house rented out, while paying rent & the mortgage ourselves - which put serious financial pressure on us.

I'm concerned that if we ask her to leave, we have to give her deposit back, and then start the long process again of getting another tenant into the house. We really couldnt afford another 2 or more months where the house is vacant, and we are paying a mortgage, have to pay her deposit back and also pay rent ourselves for that length of time....

Arrrgh

athtrasna

Can you afford the planning permission process and rates bill you may potentially be left with?

CollyFlower

newacc2015 wrote: »

They dont care they have been breaking the law so far. What till confronting them do? They are going to close their Business with the landlord calling around. Put everything in writing and get the solicitors involved.

Why should they get a solicitor involved? They can sort this out themselves.

Gumbo

athtrasna wrote: »

Can you afford the planning permission process and rates bill you may potentially be left with?

As my previous post was deleted, how do we know planning is required?

CollyFlower

kceire wrote: »

As my previous post was deleted, how do we know planning is required?

Permission is required to run a business from your home.

Stheno

CollyFlower wrote: »

Permission is required to run a business from your home.

Not always, and specifically not for childminders. see the FAQ in the attached.

For less than 5 children childminders are exempt from planning, and can get permission for more under certain criteria.

http://www.mccc.ie/docs/Childminders%20Information%20Booklet.pdf

http://www.childminding.ie/childminding/faqs/

salamanca22

Stheno wrote: »

Not always, and specifically not for childminders. see the FAQ in the attached.

For less than 5 children childminders are exempt from planning, and can get permission for more under certain criteria.

http://www.mccc.ie/docs/Childminders%20Information%20Booklet.pdf

http://www.childminding.ie/childminding/faqs/

It's a moot point anyway, the lease specified that no business was to be run from the premises.

Stheno

salamanca22 wrote: »

It's a moot point anyway, the lease specified that no business was to be run from the premises.

For sure, but it's not a point that can be argued.

However tenant has violated the less, so OP can start eviction proceedings.

However OP appears to be more concerned with maintaining the rent, so ideally they need to negotiate with the tenant to be sure the right notifications are in place and the right insurances, which I can't see being possible as a tenant.

First step for OP is to talk to tenant

CollyFlower

From this website...... http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/pre_school_education_and_childcare/health_safety_and_welfare_of_preschool_childcare_services.html

"Pre-school care providers are required to notify the Child
and Family Agency that they are providing services. In
addition, they are required to take all reasonable
measures to safeguard the health, safety and welfare of
pre-school children attending their service. Specifics
about the regulation of pre-school childcare services are
set out in the Child Care (Pre-School Services) (No 2)
Regulations 2006 and the Child Care (Pre-School
Services) (No 2) (Amendment) Regulations 2006 . These
Regulations set down the high standards of health,
safety and welfare that must be in place before such
services can be provided.
Overall, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs has
responsibility for these Regulations and for developing
policy in this area. The Child and Family Agency is
required to inspect and regulate pre-school childcare
services and has published a list of tips on choosing a
pre-school."
In addition they should also ask for the owners permission before they set up a business.

Mrs OBumble

My observation is that in this country, the word "Montessori" is tossed about all over the place, with various meanings and very little understanding, even from people who should know better.

Properly, it means a specifically structured educational approach, delivered by a directoress with some very specific training. (And that's training which couldn't even allow the person to be considered to be a qualified early-childhood educator in some countries - but that's a whole different story).

But many people use it to mean pretty much any sort of early-childhood care.

It's quite possible that all the tenant is doing is childminding, and that it's totally legal and covered by insurance that the tenant has in place.

None of us can tell, though, what the real story is. Only the OP can research this, by finding out exactly what the tenant is doing.

Stheno

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

My observation is that in this country, the word "Montessori" is tossed about all over the place, with various meanings and very little understanding, even from people who should know better.
.

Agreed, I apparently went to Montessori in the seventies, my vague memories of it are playschool, nothing more