Not a Customer - Still receiving bills

jpb1974

I'm receiving bills even though all my water services are private.

From another thread -

You are a customer of Irish Water if your household is supplied from the public water main for water supply and/or uses a public sewer for wastewater removal and treatment.

My household is not supplied from the public water main for water supply, nor do I use a public sewer for waste water removal and treatment.

I did not register simply because I'm not a customer, I mean.. why would I?

I called and I emailed stating as much... but I'm still receiving bills. The guy on the phone wanted to ask me 20 question... but I told him "it was none of his business", I'm not a customer"... I simply gave him the account number and asked that they remove me from their system. Obviously hasn't happened.

If I don't use your service and am not a customer, why am I continuing to get harassed with bills? Surely it's your responsibility to know who your customers are? I don't have to call, email and generally waste my time with other service providers who's services I don't use.

Irish Water: Allanah

Hi jbp1974,

Thanks for contacting us.

Non-customers who have not confirmed their details with us will receive a bill. The reason for this is because we receive information from various public sector sources and if details have not been confirmed, we use this information to issue a bill.

Would you mind sending the following details via private message and we will help you further with this?

- Name,
- Address and
- Contact number

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,
Allanah

jpb1974

PM sent. 

Guilty until proven innocent... honestly, a total and utter farce. 

MagicMarker

jpb1974 wrote: »

PM sent. 

Guilty until proven innocent... honestly, a total and utter farce. 

Why not just answer their questions?? They're attempting to confirm that you are indeed not a customer. Otherwise we can all just ring up and say "eh yeah I'm not a customer, just take my word for it yeah".

jpb1974

Edit -

Come to think of it, I only came here to present an issue to Irish Water, third time lucky I'm hoping. I'm not interested in any form of debate.

Thanks

jpb1974

We do apologise for any inconvenience that was caused to you while trying to confirm that you are not a customer of Irish Water.

In order to assist you further we do require that you provide us with a contact telephone number. This is for data protection reasons, and also so that we can arrange for a member of our team to call you.

During this call we will need to confirm the following details:

- Water source;
- Private/primary residence and
- Property details i.e. occupancy, resident status, address

If you wouldn't mind answering the above questions, please let us know a convenient time for us to call you and we can ensure that no further bills will be sent to you.

There you go... you're guilty of being a customer until you prove your own innocence and Irish Water have no clue whether they supply water to you or not.

Water source - once it's not from Irish Water what difference is it to you?

Private/primary residence - what business is it of Irish Water?

Property details i.e. occupancy, resident status, address - I've already given you the address, the rest is of no relevance to Irish Water

I've given you the address, I've given you the account number, I've told you I have a private supply - I told you all this over the phone and via email as well. The rest is not your concern, it's none of your business and you shouldn't be asking people to divulge such information if they're not availing of your services.

All further bills will go in the bin...

jpb1974

I simply can't understand how 

- a company is entitled to bill you for something you're not receiving
- the onus appears to be on you to prove otherwise
- you're expected to divulge personal details to a company you have no dealings with

When I asked Irish Water on the phone a few months back 'what gave them the right to ask these questions?', it was pretty much met with silence. They couldn't justify what entitled them to my information, so I really don't see why I should hand it over for no good reason other than to satisfy them when they're providing me with nothing other than hassle.

What's next... Nigerian scammers start calling and asking for your personal details and you hand them over at a whim?

I can guarantee you, Irish Water know that they're billing non-customers and it appears they aren't prepared to do much about it that doesn't involve a invasion of people's privacy.

How can you keep bandying the term "data protection" around when you're asking non-customers to throw their right to data protection out the window by answering questions that are non of your business? Please respond Irish Water and help me understand.

martinn123

Suppose when you want to apply for the Water Conservation Grant, you won't give your PPS No. either to Soc Welfare.

jpb1974

I don't want to apply for a Water Conservation grant... considering I'm private, why would Irish Water want to give me €100 for nothing other than as a bait to grab my personal details?

martinn123

jpb1974 wrote: »

I don't want to apply for a Water Conservation grant... considering I'm private, why would Irish Water want to give me €100 for nothing other than as a bait to grab my personal details?

Eh, the grant is from Dept of Social Protection, and they have all your details. Nothing to do with Irish Water,

jpb1974

martinn123 wrote: »

jpb1974 wrote: »

I don't want to apply for a Water Conservation grant... considering I'm private, why would Irish Water want to give me €100 for nothing other than as a bait to grab my personal details?

Eh, the grant is from Dept of Social Protection, and they have all your details. Nothing to do with Irish Water,

OK, so what was your original point? Sorry, I don't get you... if I want to handover my details to Dept of Social Protection then I will, but in this case I don't. I won't be applying for a grant, so no problems there. I'm not even sure what sort of incentive the grant is supposed to provide for those on private supply other than 100 euro for nothing in a time of economic struggle.

Not sure what you're getting at? Sorry.

martinn123

jpb1974 wrote: »

martinn123 wrote: »

jpb1974 wrote: »

I don't want to apply for a Water Conservation grant... considering I'm private, why would Irish Water want to give me €100 for nothing other than as a bait to grab my personal details?

Eh, the grant is from Dept of Social Protection, and they have all your details. Nothing to do with Irish Water,

OK, so what was your original point? Sorry, I don't get you... if I want to handover my details to Dept of Social Protection then I will, but in this case I don't. I won't be applying for a grant, so no problems there. I'm not even sure what sort of incentive  the grant is supposed to provide for those on private supply other than 100 euro for nothing in a time of economic struggle.

Not sure what you're getting at? Sorry.

It's simple, as you are not using water or sewerage from Irish Water, you give them some details to confirm that, and the Bills stop.
Then you can apply to, and get a Grant of 100.00 from Soc Prot. for doing just that
You win Up 100.00, use it as you wish.
You won't have to hand any details to Soc Prot, other than to confirm your PPS No, they have all your details already.

jpb1974

I think you need to read back over the thread... you're sorta assuming that, as a non-customer, I want to freely handover all my details to a company I have no dealings with in order to prove my innocence and then go grab 100 euro for nothing. This is not the case.

As a non-customer, I want Irish Water to make the effort to realize they are billing people who don't subscribe to their service, stop asking me to divulge private details and effectively stop billing me. I've given them all the  information I see as appropriate and they're free to take it upon themselves to prove otherwise in the event that the information is deemed incorrect.

The fact of the matter here is, Irish Water are wrong, they're billing me incorrectly. I'm just the guy that's getting hassled and being asked to freely handover personal details that they have no right to know. Nobody has actually presented any factual information here that justifies their right to ask these questions.

marklazarcovic

the silence from the reps is astounding

jpb1974

Its the same silence when I was asked the same questions over the phone and queried why, as a non-customer, they were entitled to such information.

gordongekko

The question was answered earlier. If the op wants the bills to stop all he has to do is answer their questions. The reps can't add anymore to the discussion.

jpb1974

But what about this ->


Water source - once it's not from Irish Water what difference is it to you?

Private/primary residence - what business is it of Irish Water?

Property details i.e. occupancy, resident status, address - I've already given you the address, the rest is of no relevance to Irish Water



If I'm not using public water or public sewerage, then I'm not a customer. They're not entitled to ask and I'm not obliged to answer.

Jan Laco

jpb1974 wrote: »

Not sure what you're getting at? Sorry.

It reads like he is jealous or has a grudge against you for having your own source, and has somehow came to the conclusion you will be sponging off the state conservation grant.

gordongekko

jpb1974 wrote: »

But what about this ->


Water source - once it's not from Irish Water what difference is it to you?

Private/primary residence - what business is it of Irish Water?

Property details i.e. occupancy, resident status, address - I've already given you the address, the rest is of no relevance to Irish Water



If I'm not using public water or public sewerage, then I'm not a customer. They're not entitled to ask and I'm not obliged to answer.

It's up to you. Don't answer their questions and keep getting bills. Seems much easier to answer a few simple questions and get those bills to stop. But it's up to you. You are aware how to stop the bills but are choosing not to stop them. 

martinn123

Jan Laco wrote: »

jpb1974 wrote: »

Not sure what you're getting at? Sorry.

It reads like he is jealous or has a grudge against you for having your own source, and has somehow came to the conclusion you will be sponging off  the state conservation grant.

Me, Not jealous of the OP at all, just trying to point out that he can stop the bills by answering a few questions
I did not say he had to answer them truthfully, so if its his sole residence, say it's one of 6. Asked how many occupants, say 19.
if he's on a well, say it's a group water scheme, just tick a few boxes, and the bills stop. Finally if he does not claim the grant, do I give a care, not at all.

jpb1974

It's a matter of principle.

If you think it's fine to incorrectly bill people and then have them handover personal details to prove their innocence, then fine. But I don't.

Yeah, I could lie through my ars-e too... but I'd rather Irish Water accepted that they have to take responsibility for this and do something about it rather than placing the burden back on non-customers to prove their innocence because their data is wrong.

There's going to be some vulnerable person out there, on private supply, that gets incorrectly billed and ends up paying it because they don't know any better.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

gordongekko wrote: »

It's up to you. Don't answer their questions and keep getting bills. Seems much easier to answer a few simple questions and get those bills to stop. But it's up to you. You are aware how to stop the bills but are choosing not to stop them. 

If a plumber kept sending you an invoice for installing your heating system, and you knew he hadn't installed it, and told him so.. Then he says "ok, tell me who did install it, and how much you paid, show us the receipt sure, and I won't bill you again."

Would you do it?

jpb1974

^^^
Exactly

GreatDefector

to put it another way

You're walking down the road at night, minding your own business when a garda van pulls up and a guard asks you're name, address, and what your up to.

You can be funny and tell him that legally, freeman, constitutionally, no hat on, whatever.... that you are under no obligation to provide him with the info, its none of his business. What will he do? He'll most likely haul you down to the station and keep you there until he's satisfied he's confirmed who you are and probably then let you go. Waste of everyone's time and energy

Or you could just simply suck it up and save everyone the hassle and tell the guard what he wants to know and everyone can be on their way. 

It's not that hard, really...... 

TL;DR....

1) easy way
2) hard way

jpb1974

garda van pulls up and a guard asks you're name, address, and what your up to.

Honestly, is that really comparing apples with apples.  Law allows Gardai to do that. Huge difference.

If some average Joe you'd never seen in your life pulled up and asked you the same questions.. would you answer?

twowheelsonly

martinn123 wrote: »

It's simple, as you are not using water or sewerage from Irish Water, you give them some details to confirm that, and the Bills stop.

Seeing as they're sending the OP a bill they obviously have his name and address yet they still don't know that he's not a customer of theirs?? 
Sounds pretty ridiculous to me. Why should he have to prove otherwise? 
Surely the onus is on the company to conduct their own due diligence and to know who they're actually supplying water to or am I missing something here?

jpb1974

Surely the onus is on the company to conduct their own due diligence and to know who they're actually supplying water

Spot on.

Fact is they haven't a clue... nothing more than a half arsed, shambolic roll-out.

jpb1974

jpb1974 wrote: »

Its the same silence when I was asked the same questions over the phone and queried why, as a non-customer, they were entitled to such information.

They have answered you. It just wasn't the answer you wanted. 

jpb1974

Deleted User wrote: »

jpb1974 wrote: »

Its the same silence when I was asked the same questions over the phone and queried why, as a non-customer, they were entitled to such information.

They have answered you. It just wasn't the answer you wanted. 

Err.. not sure about that Maryanne84 ->

and queried why, as a non-customer, they were entitled to such information.


That's what you quoted and they never answered this.

how do you generally feel about Irish water OP

you wouldn't by any chance have strong views on the matter wouldya

jpb1974

Couldn't really give a sh1te about them... just wish they'd go sort themselves out and figure out who their customers really are and stop hassling me.

jpb1974

jpb1974 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

jpb1974 wrote: »

Its the same silence when I was asked the same questions over the phone and queried why, as a non-customer, they were entitled to such information.

They have answered you. It just wasn't the answer you wanted. 

Err.. not sure about that Maryanne84 ->

and queried why, as a non-customer, they were entitled to such information.


That's what you quoted and they never answered this.

This is what they told you "Non-customers who have not confirmed their details with us will receive a bill. The reason for this is because we receive information from various public sector sources and if details have not been confirmed, we use this information to issue a bill." It's a bit like opting out when you sign up for stuff on Internet. You're stressing yourself over nothing.

jpb1974

Not stressed at all. Living in the sticks, can't even get proper broadband nor public water. Anyone can show up here and find out the facts for themselves ;)

Done all that I'm prepared to do to resolve the matter... phone calls, emails, boards... and have supplied enough information for them to verify that my claim is in fact correct.

Would prefer that they go to the effort to actually figure out who their customers really are.

Would also prefer if someone could present a factual argument that proves I'm wrong other than general opinions that doesn't match mine - "oh call them, give them all the info you want, prove to them your innocence, take the easy option". That'd be your opinion and not mine. I'm not here to be swayed unfortunately.

jpb1974

It's a bit like opting out when you sign up for stuff on Internet

Like pressing the unsubscribe button (*important bit - for a subscription you consented to) and supplying your email address, but nothing more?

I wish.

_Kaiser_

You're not a customer OP, you've told them this, and I'd agree that you should be under no obligation to divulge personal information to a company that you receive no services from and which has proven itself - very publicly - of incapable of handling customer data properly on several occasions.

Let them send whatever bills they want and just bin them as you said. If it ever went any further you can then prove the situation to someone with proper authority - eg: the Gardai or a Judge.

Rips

I've just had the same farce today, they must be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I was billed at my parents house, where, as it happens the (unmetered) bill has already been paid. But I guess since I am an adult, and they want to account for me, they have to pin me down somewhere, and I haven't supplied them with any details.

Since this is all being done on an erm... we'll call it an 'honesty system' :pac: where you have to confirm or deny your culpability with them... whats to stop any adult in the country pleading that they live at home? 


I rang them up (who makes money off Locall numbers??) and gave them the farcical account number, and they wanted me to supply an address. No chance.
So then, we had a game of pot luck, where they guessed at various previous addresses, finally landing on a property I own with a private well and septic tank.

I'm not actually resident there either, but it was sufficient for them to remove my account.

Totally bent system. 

martinn123

Rips wrote: »

I've just had the same farce today, they must be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I was billed at my parents house, where, as it happens the (unmetered) bill has already been paid. But I guess since I am an adult, and they want to account for me, they have to pin me down somewhere, and I haven't supplied them with any details.

Since this is all being done on an erm... we'll call it an 'honesty system' :pac: where you have to confirm or deny your culpability with them... whats to stop any adult in the country pleading that they live at home? 


I rang them up (who makes money off Locall numbers??) and gave them the farcical account number, and they wanted me to supply an address. No chance.
So then, we had a game of pot luck, where they guessed at various previous addresses, finally landing on a property I own with a private well and septic tank.

I'm not actually resident there either, but it was sufficient for them to remove my account.

Totally bent system. 

I have a suggestion,

 lets tell Irish Water to employ a team of guy's and gal's 250 should be enough.
Give them Company Vans, and drive to all the locations where they are Billing Non Customers.
Do a simple test on the Water to confirm it's not treated, and check for a sewerage connection. Should not cost much, couple of Million, per month.

Or

Get the Non Customer, to tick a few boxes on a Web-Site

Your choice.

Rips

martinn123 wrote: »

Rips wrote: »

I have a suggestion,

 lets tell Irish Water to employ a team of guy's and gal's 250 should be enough.
Give them Company Vans, and drive to all the locations where they are Billing Non Customers.
Do a simple test on the Water to confirm it's not treated, and check for a sewerage connection. Should not cost much, couple of Million, per month.

Or

Get the Non Customer, to tick a few boxes on a Web-Site

Your choice.

You don't think they are paid enough to come up with their own fair system of billing themselves? 

listermint

martinn123 wrote: »

I have a suggestion,

 lets tell Irish Water to employ a team of guy's and gal's 250 should be enough.
Give them Company Vans, and drive to all the locations where they are Billing Non Customers.
Do a simple test on the Water to confirm it's not treated, and check for a sewerage connection. Should not cost much, couple of Million, per month.

Or

Get the Non Customer, to tick a few boxes on a Web-Site

Your choice.

Or do what they did and accuse everyone of being a customer and make everyone prove otherwise.... Yeah Great system there.I believe it's hundreds of millions in the making....

Wright

martinn123 wrote: »

Suppose when you want to apply for the Water Conservation Grant, you won't give your PPS No. either to Soc Welfare.

Except he does have dealings with them, in that case. Do you not understand the difference? It would be like Vodafone sending me bills. But I'm on 3 and have never been with Vodafone so why are they sending me bills? And why would I have to give Vodafone my info?

martinn123

Rips wrote: »

martinn123 wrote: »

Rips wrote: »

I have a suggestion,

 lets tell Irish Water to employ a team of guy's and gal's 250 should be enough.
Give them Company Vans, and drive to all the locations where they are Billing Non Customers.
Do a simple test on the Water to confirm it's not treated, and check for a sewerage connection. Should not cost much, couple of Million, per month.

Or

Get the Non Customer, to tick a few boxes on a Web-Site

Your choice.

You don't think they are paid enough to come up with their own fair system of billing themselves? 

Well obviously No.
Without a data base of who is who, how could they.
I am no supporter of I.W  but it was established  without a customer list
That's why they asked non-customers like the OP to let them know.

galljga1

martinn123 wrote: »

Rips wrote: »

I've just had the same farce today, they must be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

I was billed at my parents house, where, as it happens the (unmetered) bill has already been paid. But I guess since I am an adult, and they want to account for me, they have to pin me down somewhere, and I haven't supplied them with any details.

Since this is all being done on an erm... we'll call it an 'honesty system' :pac: where you have to confirm or deny your culpability with them... whats to stop any adult in the country pleading that they live at home? 


I rang them up (who makes money off Locall numbers??) and gave them the farcical account number, and they wanted me to supply an address. No chance.
So then, we had a game of pot luck, where they guessed at various previous addresses, finally landing on a property I own with a private well and septic tank.

I'm not actually resident there either, but it was sufficient for them to remove my account.

Totally bent system. 

I have a suggestion,

 lets tell Irish Water to employ a team of guy's and gal's 250 should be enough.
Give them Company Vans, and drive to all the locations where they are Billing Non Customers.
Do a simple test on the Water to confirm it's not treated, and check for a sewerage connection. Should not cost much, couple of Million, per month.

Or

Get the Non Customer, to tick a few boxes on a Web-Site

Your choice.

Why does a non customer have to confirm their status?
I have not contacted UPC, Bord Gais, Airtricity or dozens of other utility companies to confirm that I am not a customer of theirs. If a company provides me with a service, I pay the relevant bill. I have no intention of engaging with any company that sends me a bill if they are not providing me with a chargeable service.

listermint

galljga1 wrote: »

Why does a non customer have to confirm their status?
I have not contacted UPC, Bord Gais, Airtricity or dozens of other utility companies to confirm that I am not a customer of theirs. If a company provides me with a service, I pay the relevant bill. I have no intention of engaging with any company that sends me a bill if they are not providing me with a chargeable service.

Wow wow wow

You can be considered a freeman or some other nonsense for talking like that.

Customer until proven innocent... As they say sure didn't they rewrite legislation to do it..

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

martinn123 wrote: »

Get the Non Customer, to tick a few boxes on a Web-Site.

That wouldn't be such a bad idea. Not perfect, but reasonable. Unfortunately though, IW don't allow you to just tick a couple of boxes. They want to know how many houses you have, and who lives in them. Where you do get your water from, if not from them.

That's the problem.

gctest50

listermint wrote: »

Or do what they did and accuse everyone of being a customer and make everyone prove otherwise.... Yeah Great system there.I believe it's hundreds of millions in the making....

same as the TV license - most people have one

galljga1

listermint wrote: »

galljga1 wrote: »

Why does a non customer have to confirm their status?
I have not contacted UPC, Bord Gais, Airtricity or dozens of other utility companies to confirm that I am not a customer of theirs. If a company provides me with a service, I pay the relevant bill. I have no intention of engaging with any company that sends me a bill if they are not providing me with a chargeable service.

Wow wow wow

You can be considered a freeman or some other nonsense for talking like that.

Customer until proven innocent... As they say sure didn't they rewrite legislation to do it..

Ah but the difference is that I actually pay my bills. The whole Freeman thing is based on choosing what laws to obey depending on your beliefs which is a fairly stupid approach. I have no problem paying for services I use, including water, I just think being asked to declare my customer status to an organisation with which I have no dealings is not on.

gctest50

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

............They want to know how many houses you have, and who lives in them. Where you do get your water from, not from them........

It'll get more important over time, seems loads of private wells are contaminated

.

Greater risk of illness if you drink contaminated water from private wells

Up to one third of private wells are contaminated by E.coli says EPA.

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Campaigns/wellsepa.html

.

gordongekko

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy wrote: »

gordongekko wrote: »

It's up to you. Don't answer their questions and keep getting bills. Seems much easier to answer a few simple questions and get those bills to stop. But it's up to you. You are aware how to stop the bills but are choosing not to stop them. 

If a plumber kept sending you an invoice for installing your heating system, and you knew he hadn't installed it, and told him so.. Then he says "ok, tell me who did install it, and how much you paid, show us the receipt sure, and I won't bill you again."

Would you do it?

Clearly the best course of action is to ring the plumber up and not discuss the matter with him. Then go on the internet venting at him. Be given the correct answer and decide I don't want to hear it. Keep venting some more then wait for people to back me up and for someone to post a non relevant example about getting a bill for someone kicking a ball against a wall. Sure that will resolve the issue for me.

jpb1974

At this stage the issue is resolved for me.

They can keep billing me... at some stage they'll have to come looking for the money and will be forced themselves to look into the facts. Then they'll realize they're wrong and hopefully will issue an apology.

I've asked them -

Is registration mandatory?
Answer - No

What entitles you to ask non-customers to divulge such private information?
Answer - They couldn't supply one, which to me suggests they have no right to such information for non-customers.

So, as far as I am concerned, I am compliant and haven't done anything wrong.

Anyway... at this stage there hasn't been a single fact posted that contradicts my stance. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but just because it may differ doesn't make me wrong.

Oddly enough - a neighbour of my parents who lives in town and IS on public supply, can't get them to send him out a bill :rolleyes:

gordongekko

jpb1974 wrote: »

At this stage the issue is resolved for me.

They can keep billing me... at some stage they'll have to come looking for the money and will be forced themselves to look into the facts. Then they'll realize they're wrong and hopefully will issue an apology.

I've asked them -

Is registration mandatory?
Answer - No

What entitles you to ask non-customers to divulge such private information?
Answer - They couldn't supply one, which to me suggests they have no right to such information for non-customers.

So, as far as I am concerned, I am compliant and haven't done anything wrong.

Anyway... at this stage there hasn't been a single fact posted that contradicts my stance. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but just because it may differ doesn't make me wrong.

Oddly enough - a neighbour of my parents who lives in town and IS on public supply, can't get them to send him out a bill :rolleyes:

It's either resolved and you're happy or not. But it's been explained to you already. Either answer the questions and the bills stop or don't. It's up to you. It like as already pointed out to you getting a tv licence bill.

jpb1974

Thanks gordongekko - opinion noted in your previous post.

I've taken my father's wise advice - "phuck them". They can keep sending bills and they'll go in the bin (paper recycling to be precise). I'm satisfied that I've done as much as I'm prepared to do to resolve the issue, so now I'm just going to ignore it.

If I didn't own a TV I'd ignore license requests too and wait for an inspector to show and let them figure it out for themselves the hard way