ALU frame harshness?

dubber

A few years ago I got myself a Giant "hybrid" bike with a alu frame and carbon fork on 28mm tyres. The thing that struck me most was how harsh the ride was compared to my Reynolds 501 racer from 20 years ago, I felt beat up after riding it. Are all ALU framed bikes like this? I've read that Cannondale ALU frames are less harsh - any truth in this? Do I simply need wider tyres to smooth things out?

I've been looking at giving cycling another go (commuting/cycling with kid on board/in parks woods), any suggestions as to what I should be looking at?

Was looking at a couple of Cube cyclocross type bikes:

http://www.cube.eu/en/bikes/tour/sl-...hite-red-2015/

http://www.cube.eu/bikes/road-race/c...rednblue-2015/

or perhaps something from Cannondale. I know Giant do a cheap carbon bike, but need somehting that could take a child seat ..

rp

I agree about the harshness of Ali, so this might be the bike for you: http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBPXKAFFAPEX/planet-x-kaffenback-sram-apex-road-bike

dubber

rp wrote: »

I agree about the harshness of Ali, so this might be the bike for you: http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBPXKAFFAPEX/planet-x-kaffenback-sram-apex-road-bike

Thanks, although I'm limited to where I an buy from on my BTW scheme. I actually went to dig out my old bike from my Dad's shed to compare, unfortunately it was gone ... presumably stolen, a pity as it had a nice frame and ultegra gubblins on it from what i remember.

petethedrummer

Kona Honky Tonk
Anything from Surly
Gensis Equilibrium or Croix de fer.

I've seen all three brands in Dublin bike shops.

dubber

petethedrummer wrote: »

Kona Honky Tonk
Anything from Surly
Gensis Equilibrium or Croix de fer.

I've seen all three brands in Dublin bike shops.

Thanks, limited to cyclesuperstore in Dublin, but a few other options around the country, I'll check them out.

petethedrummer

dubber wrote: »

Thanks, limited to cyclesuperstore in Dublin, but a few other options around the country, I'll check them out.

I'd give those bike shops a call. Sometimes the more niche brands don't appear on a shop's websites.

tigerboon

dubber wrote: »

Thanks, limited to cyclesuperstore in Dublin, but a few other options around the country, I'll check them out.

Cyclesuperstore got a Genesis for me. They don't deal in them. I was in with them looking at a few options and they said they could order in the Genesis. They had it in and built in about a week and a half. They probally do the same with other brands.

ford2600

petethedrummer wrote: »

I'd give those bike shops a call. Sometimes the more niche brands don't appear on a shop's websites.

I ride an aluminium lapierre and a steel genesis equilibrium and find no difference on very long rides on rough roads. Ditto when I rent carbon

Wide rims, wide tyres, frame geometry and better fit are more important than frame material imho

Alek

To me its all down to larger tyres that allow lower pressures and comfortable geometry. Frame material comfort is a myth imho.

If you're on 28mm tyres, try to pump them at 4bar front, 5bar back - works wonders for a 80kg rider like me in terms of comfort. No pinch flats, and they're still fast.

nordicb

Wheels play their part in ride quality, wouldn't blame just the frame... Just a thought.

petethedrummer

I'm not arguing against Alu. I rode an Alu Giant for years and loved the bike. I was just listing steel options the OP might not be aware of.

And as the OP will be commuting I think my Genesis Equilibrium is a better option for commuting than my Giant SCR was. It may not make a difference but I feel more assured attaching a rack to a steel bike rather than an alu one.

A tyre with compliant sidewalls is also important. A Marathon plus would not be that comfortable even at wider sizes.

Koobcam

There are different grades of aluminium, so not all alu frames will be the same-some will be harsh, others less so. I reckon though that Carbon fibre is a great material for Ireland as it tends to do a good job of smoothing out the ride. Wider tyres running at lower pressures will help as well, though you need to make sure the tyre and the rim are a good match. A mixture of aluminium and carbon is maybe ideal because it will be cheaper and still offer the shock-absorbtion qualities to make the ride more comfortable. I have a Canyon cyclocross bike, an aluminium frame with carbon forks (as basically most aluminium bikes will have) with a weird but very effective split carbon seat post, and it's pretty comfortable.

Alek

This is a new theory to me:

the tyre and the rim are a good match

Can you please shed some light on this?

Koobcam

Alek wrote: »

This is a new theory to me:



Can you please shed some light on this?

Just that the tyre should be within whatever the minimum and maximum recommended tyre dimensions for the particular rim (and vice-versa). Sometimes you can also find that certain tyres measure wider (or narrower) than what it says on the sidewall-eg Michelin Pro 4 service course 25mm tyres actually measure closer to 27mm on any wheel I've fitted them on (so maybe you can get the benefits of a 28mm tyre from one officially listed as being 25mm, which is good as these are usually a bit cheaper than 28s).

OleRodrigo

I wouldn't say frame material is a myth. Switching between an alu road bike, a steel fixed and another steel road bike, when other factors such as tyre width and wheel type remain equal, there is a difference in ' feel ' - the steel being more comfortable and better at absorbing road buzz. Unless weight is a factor ? Maybe it is..

28mm tyres on a steel frame are very comfortable on Irish roads, I know that much.

Alek

Just that the tyre should be within whatever the minimum and maximum recommended tyre dimensions for the particular rim (and vice-versa).

I had 25mm tyres on 24mm rims (24mm externally, 20mm inside), couldn't tell a difference in terms of comfort. Very large tyres on narrow rims can "squirm" while cornering, but again this has nothing to do with ride comfort. Unless you lose control of the bike due to this

Switching between an alu road bike, a steel fixed and another steel road bike, when other factors such as tyre width and wheel type remain equal, there is a difference in ' feel.

I don't really think its the material itself, but rather design. You can make a carbon bike super stiff and harsh, or soft as a noodle and comfortable, simply by modifying diameter and thickness of frame sections. Same goes for steel and alu - its the shape/diameter/thickness of tubing in relation to the material's properties that create the feel. Not the material itself.

benneca1

Steel or titanium if you can afford it are the best frames or comfort.

Aluminium is harsh and formica (carbon) is bloody noisy. It is all marketing malarkey anyhow.

An old school lugged steel frame can hold its own with any of our modern bikes. If you want real comfort ride a full suss mountain bike now that is comfort. If you want speed get a full carbon bike with formica everywhere. Everything else is in between depending on what you want.

My point is it is all a compromise

dubber

The problem is trying to compromise over the Internet without being able to try stuff out ...

Would the steel bike with 28mm tyres below, be less "buzzy" than the alu/carbon fork one below it on 35mm tyres?

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBPXKAFFAPEXFB/planet-x-kaffenback-sram-apex-flat-bar-urban-bike

http://www.cube.eu/en/bikes/tour/sl-road/cube-sl-road-sl-black-anthrazit-blue-2015/

Lumen

dubber wrote: »

Would the steel bike with 28mm tyres below, be less "buzzy" than the alu/carbon fork one below it on 35mm tyres?

35mm tyres will somewhat overwhelm the feeling of the bike, IMO.

Nothing should feel buzzy on good 28mm tyres, other than maybe a TT/tri bike with extreme geometry.

That Kaffenback looks like a bit of a tank.

Alek

Nothing should feel buzzy on good 28mm tyres

any bike on 28mm tyres @ 110psi will be buzzy.

any bike on 28mm @ 65psi will float

35mm tyres will somewhat overwhelm the feeling of the bike, IMO.

I remember you had Kojaks as well, no? What do you mean by "overwhelming the feeling"?

I switched from them recently - at 3 bars front 4 back they were one of my comfiest rubbers, but still quite fast.

Lumen

Alek wrote: »

I remember you had Kojaks as well, no? What do you mean by "overwhelming the feeling"?

It made the bike feel more like a vehicle and less like a bicycle.

cajonlardo

Did a few sportives and plenty of longish spins on a Caad X with 25mm Michelin Pro Endurance tyres.
These tyres actually measure 27mm on my wheels. Run them at 90 psi ( I'm 79 kilos) and the bike floats along. Had a pair of Sammy Slicks on it when it was new and they were 32c - that was like sitting in the armchair.

dubber

cajonlardo wrote: »

Did a few sportives and plenty of longish spins on a Caad X with 25mm Michelin Pro Endurance tyres.
These tyres actually measure 27mm on my wheels. Run them at 90 psi ( I'm 79 kilos) and the bike floats along. Had a pair of Sammy Slicks on it when it was new and they were 32c - that was like sitting in the armchair.

Thanks for that, was looking at the CaadX and the Cube alternative with the secondary levers. However, I'm leaning towards a flat bar as will have the kid on the back (or front?) from time-to-time and suspect those will give me more stability?

Alek

It made the bike feel more like a vehicle and less like a bicycle.

You must be very sensitive person Didn't notice anything like that at all - very comfortable road slicks, reassuring in cornering, just a tad slow compared to racing tyres.

onthefringe

cajonlardo wrote: »

Did a few sportives and plenty of longish spins on a Caad X with 25mm Michelin Pro Endurance tyres.
These tyres actually measure 27mm on my wheels. Run them at 90 psi ( I'm 79 kilos) and the bike floats along. Had a pair of Sammy Slicks on it when it was new and they were 32c - that was like sitting in the armchair.

have a caadx
amazingly comfy alu..on slicks its as good a bike as any dedicated road bike.
bust alu ive ridden apart from colnago dream and thats the best alu available-airplane columbus..
frame material is definitely a huge factor- good steel is unbeatable.

Unknown Soldier

Messing around on two Canyon AL frames with carbon forks & 25mm Conti II Tyres.

Quite comfy but I think it's more some roads than the bike when my eyeballs feel they are about to pop out.

I can't see how a full carbon bike would make those particular stretches of road even more that 10% better.

I'd assume wider tyres would though.

cajonlardo

dubber wrote: »

Thanks for that, was looking at the CaadX and the Cube alternative with the secondary levers. However, I'm leaning towards a flat bar as will have the kid on the back (or front?) from time-to-time and suspect those will give me more stability?

If child was on front, I would say flat bars for you to see better?
If on the back I'd say drops - for the times you want a spin without child

outfox

dubber wrote: »

Would the steel bike with 28mm tyres below, be less "buzzy" than the alu/carbon fork one below it on 35mm tyres?

I have a steel Genesis Equilibrium with 25 mm tyres, and a Scott CX alu with carbon forks on 35 mm tyres. The latter is probably slightly less buzzy, as you put it. I don't notice any difference in 'buzziness' between the Equilibrium, and my carbon bike on 23 mm. Ultimately, I think it all comes down to tyre pressures.

Alek

It made the bike feel more like a vehicle and less like a bicycle.

You got me intrigued. Taken off GP4000S 28mm yesterday and installed 38mm Vittoria Voyager Hypers, pumped 40/50psi.

Same commute as usual today : https://www.strava.com/activities/357123578

Impressions: bike feels slower. Almost no road buzz makes you feel you're not moving, if you're used to this. Totally floats over potholes and ramps. Cornering is incredible, you can go much tighter than usual - I guess this is how a vehicle feels like

I guess subconsciously I was trying a bit more than usually (new gear syndrome), but either way my average speed was still good enough for such baloons

rp

dubber wrote: »

I'm leaning towards a flat bar as will have the kid on the back (or front?)

Please don't put a kid on the front of a bike. There are better things to use as impact absorbers.

dubber

rp wrote: »

Please don't put a kid on the front of a bike. There are better things to use as impact absorbers.

I'm not a huge fan of having kids on the bike tbh, but have been outvoted. We'll only be pottering around, nowhere near traffic and have decided to go for a rear seat.

Thanks for all the replies to this topic, have decided to go for an Alu cyclocross jobbie, the CaaDx mentioned earlier in the thread.

cdaly_

Alek wrote: »

You got me intrigued. Taken off GP4000S 28mm yesterday and installed 38mm Vittoria Voyager Hypers, pumped 40/50psi.

Same commute as usual today : https://www.strava.com/activities/357123578

Impressions: bike feels slower. Almost no road buzz makes you feel you're not moving, if you're used to this. Totally floats over potholes and ramps. Cornering is incredible, you can go much tighter than usual - I guess this is how a vehicle feels like

I guess subconsciously I was trying a bit more than usually (new gear syndrome), but either way my average speed was still good enough for such baloons

I use these as standard on the Thorn and they're lovely. The Thorn feels more sedate than the Giant on 25mm Gators (but it's also about 1kg heavier) but my long-distance times are pretty much as good or better. The bike rolls really well and so smoothly. I was shocked when I got back on the Giant after a couple of months and felt how harsh it was by comparison...

OleRodrigo

cdaly_ wrote: »

I use these as standard on the Thorn and they're lovely. The Thorn feels more sedate than the Giant on 25mm Gators (but it's also about 1kg heavier) but my long-distance times are pretty much as good or better. The bike rolls really well and so smoothly. I was shocked when I got back on the Giant after a couple of months and felt how harsh it was by comparison...

You reckon its the extra weight of the Thorn or something more subtle like frame material ?

H.E. Pennypacker

Can anyone recommend mudguards that'll fit around 28mm tyres, that are effective and that are reasonably aero and light?

cdaly_

Dunno really. I'd say the wheels take a bit more effort to roll up to speed but (as Alek mentioned) it feels slower. Apparently, some of this effect is the reduction of high-frequency vibrations. Thorn reckon their 825 steel fork is springy enough to greatly improve the ride also. I can see it flex by holding the rear brake and rocking the bike. Good momentum, excellent descending and pretty ok climbing and brill comfort...