Near miss for EI-691 in Geneva yesterday.

Long Time Lurker

http://avherald.com/h?article=489ed2f3&opt=0

Am I correct in reading this as the Cessna re-entered the runway directly in front of the Aer Lingus flight path just as he was accelerating for take off. The description seems a little vague. It seems the BA flight was told to around because (ATC presumed) the runway was not gonna be clear. How did the Aer Lingus flight go about avoiding the Cessna. Was he pulling up and turning hard right just at the point of take off. If so that's as near a miss as you'll get. Scary.

smurfjed

re-entered the runway

From that report, it sounds like the Citation stopped short of the runway rather than the holding point. He didn't re-enter the runway.

Long Time Lurker

smurfjed wrote: »

From that report, it sounds like the Citation stopped short of the runway rather than the holding point. He didn't re-enter the runway.

What was the Aer Lingus flight avoiding then?

Sorry, just noticed that AH has been updated with further info. How close would that have been and how much of an avoiding action was required by the Aer Lingus flight so?

cml387

Does Geneva have a surface movement radar?

This does on the face of it sound like a rather alarming incident. It depends on how far the Citation had penetrated onto the active.

smurfjed

Runway width is 164 feet, the A320 is 112 feet. So you could be talking about as little as 26 feet of clearance. Although I would guess that the 320 wingtip would be higher than the citation nose.

Excellent job by the EI crew.

Long Time Lurker

smurfjed wrote: »

Runway width is 164 feet, the A320 is 112 feet. So you could be talking about as little as 26 feet of clearance. Although I would guess that the 320 wingtip would be higher than the citation nose.

Excellent job by the EI crew.

Bloody hell, that was close then. Who's in trouble here now so?

And to think the majority, if not all, of the passengers wont have a clue how close they were to a bit of a shock/disaster/wipe-out

knucklehead6

it was July 24th, not yesterday

smurfjed

surface movement radar?

Yes

Dardania

That could have been very messy.
I'm curious how the EI missed the Cessna e.g. was it still on the ground, or in the air...

cml387

Speculating that maybe the AL pilot saw the citation early and took a slightly avoiding path on the roll.

smurfjed

the C525 subsequently unexpectedly crossed hold short line Z coming to a stop at the runway edge while the Aer Lingus was already in the takeoff roll.

Before building this into something that it isn't, the Citation stopped at the edge of the runway, it didnt enter the runway. The problem is that it didn't stop at the correct holding point.

Long Time Lurker

smurfjed wrote: »

Before building this into something that it isn't, the Citation stopped at the edge of the runway, it didnt enter the runway. The problem is that it didn't stop at the correct holding point.

Just a total amateur here. What was the actual problem so? Just looking for a little expertise in explaining what made this an event! Clearly there was an issue. I cant work out what the AL flight did to avoid the Cessna and how severe was the avoiding maneuver!

goingnowhere

EI gets clearance for immediate departure, tower have a BA on finals so want the EI to get a move on or to decline immediately, EI accepts and rolls

The citation passes the holding point for the runway, this is a runway incursion even if its only 1m over the line

Tower spots this and calls immediate stop on the citation which it does but the citation is now infringing the runway

Tower figures the EI is either going to abort or crash and calls go around on the BA but gives a vector to avoid conflict if the EI does get airborne

What we don't know what exactly happened on the EI, clearly they spotted the citation and took the view that they could not stop short so no choice but to take avoiding action

If this had been a A330 and not a A320 outcome could be different due the much wider wingspan.

pclive

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aer-lingus-flight-forced-to-take-evasive-action-to-avoid-jet-1.2300947

smurfjed

Tower figures the EI is either going to abort or crash

Or the tower considers that the EI A320 wouldn't have problem but as the Citation was infringing the runway, they couldn't allow the BA to land.

Long Time Lurker

smurfjed wrote: »

Or the tower considers that the EI A320 wouldn't have problem but as the Citation was infringing the runway, they couldn't allow the BA to land.

It turns out nobody knows so. It'll come out eventually.

smurfjed

It turns out nobody knows so. It'll come out eventually.

As always :)

St. Leibowitz

Looking at Geneva on FR24 at 08:45 (UTC) on the 24th July, EIN68N was on its take off roll on 05, when Citation 525 N990FV was taxiing from the GA terminal on the North Apron on taxi way Z. The intersection of taxiway Z and the runway (it's about a third of the way down 05) is an incursion hot spot (HS2 on the chart).

(Edit) Just listened to it on LiveATC. Controller seemed quite excited. I've heard incidents before, and never heard a controller raise their voice. Also, there was a lot of talking in French to local aircraft before the incident. Is that normal ? I understood that all instructions are in English, and all pilots need to be proficient in English (just the vocabulary for ATC, not conversationally) in order to get their PPL. Is that true ?

CardinalJ

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

(Edit) Just listened to it on LiveATC.

Link? I cant figure out how to listen to it.

cml387

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

Also, there was a lot of talking in French to local aircraft before the incident. Is that normal ? I understood that all instructions are in English, and all pilots need to be proficient in English (just the vocabulary for ATC, not conversationally) in order to get their PPL. Is that true ?

Language must be English if requested. Otherwise the local language may be used.

St. Leibowitz

Live ATC link: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/lsgg/LSGG-Twr-Jul-24-2015-0830Z.mp3

About half way into that segment.

St. Leibowitz

cml387 wrote: »

Language must be English if requested. Otherwise the local language may be used.

OK, thanks. Didn't know that.

I had been told that all comms were in a common language, English, to assist pilots with situational awareness. If there are instructions in different languages, and some are not understood, then pilots aren't aware of other traffics instructions or intentions. Having said that, some pilots and controllers around the world can speak with such heavy accents it may as well be a foreign language sometimes.

cml387

St. Leibowitz wrote: »

OK, thanks. Didn't know that.

I had been told that all comms were in a common language, English, to assist pilots with situational awareness. If there are instructions in different languages, and some are not understood, then pilots aren't aware of other traffics instructions or intentions. Having said that, some pilots and controllers around the world can speak with such heavy accents it may as well be a foreign language sometimes.

Yes it is an issue, and it has been mentioned in incident and accident reports that an English speaking crew have felt out of the loop if the local language is used.

Really it's an indication of how some better method should be used for relaying instructions, but then you'd finish up with one computer talking to another with no human intervention and I doubt the flying public would accept that.

smurfjed

The intersection of taxiway Z and the runway (it's about a third of the way down 05) is an incursion hot spot (HS2 on the chart).

not on my Jeppesen, HS2 is on the other side of the runway and is for aircraft using the high speed exit on taxiway E.

ATC can use their local languages, but I have to admit to getting annoyed listening to Air Canada using French in Paris!

Tenger

smurfjed wrote: »

....... but I have to admit to getting annoyed listening to Air Canada using French in Paris!

Showing off perhaps?