Does marriage stand if not consumated?

goz83

If 2 people get married and don't consumate the marriage, is the marriage still binding?

Hypothetical Scenario to set the scene:

Man breaks up with longterm girlfriend and goes on a bender. Meets a foreign woman on a work visa and marries her a week later after thinking he found love. Her religion prevents pre marital sex. They have falling out on the wedding night and never consumate the marriage and never quite make up. One year later, nothing is done and they both have very little contact and live separate lives. Woman is happy to stay married, but man wants to end it and move on, because there is nothing resembling a marriage. Man rekindles relationship with his ex girlfriend and wants to marry her. What is his situation?

GerardKeating

goz83 wrote: »

If 2 people get married and don't consumate the marriage, is the marriage still binding?

Hypothetical Scenario to set the scene:

Man breaks up with longterm girlfriend and goes on a bender. Meets a foreign woman on a work visa and marries her a week later after thinking he found love. Her religion prevents pre marital sex. They have falling out on the wedding night and never consumate the marriage and never quite make up. One year later, nothing is done and they both have very little contact and live separate lives. Woman is happy to stay married, but man wants to end it and move on, because there is nothing resembling a marriage. Man rekindles relationship with his ex girlfriend and wants to marry her. What is his situation?

Cannot happen in Ireland, you need to give at least 90 days notice to the registrar to get married.

brandnewaward

situation , for lack of a better word....fecked

athtrasna

As another poster pointed out, the notice period to the state means it couldn't happen here BUT one of the grounds for civil annulment here is failure to consummate marriage due to impotence

Fred Swanson

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goz83

GerardKeating wrote: »

Cannot happen in Ireland, you need to give at least 90 days notice to the registrar to get married.

And if said bender and marriage happened in lets say.....Holland, or somewhere in Europe not requiring 90 days, but both people happened to live in Ireland. The man being irish, the woman being....indian.

paulmclaughlin

Why does this feel non-hypothetical?

Fred Swanson

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knird evol

Gentlemen, Consummate involves frontdoor action only?

billy few mates

Same thing happened to Homer Simpson and Ned Flanders....mind you that was Las Vegas....

efb

billy few mates wrote: »

Same thing happened to Homer Simpson and Ned Flanders....mind you that was Las Vegas....

And a cartoon...

seamus

Consummation typically refers to an unwillingness or inability on the part of one of the spouses to have intercourse.

A judge would need to be convinced that this was the case rather than it being a case of, "we split up before we could get around to it".

sigmundv

Marriage is a legal contract. Does it matter whether you have sex or not?

Greenmachine

Where did this hypothetical ceremony take place. For example if it was a voodoo ceremony in the the jungle, it would have no legal recognition in Ireland. If one were coerced into marrying it would not be legal either.

Rikand

Greenmachine wrote: »

Where did this hypothetical ceremony take place. For example if it was a voodoo ceremony in the the jungle, it would have no legal recognition in Ireland. If one were coerced into marrying it would not be legal either.

Would coerced count as ....

"I couldn't bang her till I married her"

racso1975

Greenmachine wrote: »

Where did this hypothetical ceremony take place. For example if it was a voodoo ceremony in the the jungle, it would have no legal recognition in Ireland. If one were coerced into marrying it would not be legal either.

I am willing to bet Holland!!!!!!

Peregrinus

Greenmachine wrote: »

Where did this hypothetical ceremony take place. For example if it was a voodoo ceremony in the the jungle, it would have no legal recognition in Ireland.

It might. If it's recognised by the law of the place where it's celebrated, then in general it's recognised in Irish law. And in countries where they do celebrate voodoo marriages in jungles, why wouldn't the local law recognise and give effect to those marriages?

The Bishop Basher

GerardKeating wrote: »

Cannot happen in Ireland, you need to give at least 90 days notice to the registrar to get married.

Not necessarily true. We were married less then 3 weeks after making the decision.

A quick trip to the court house and we were good to go without the notice period.

Greenmachine

Rikand wrote: »

Would coerced count as ....

"I couldn't bang her till I married her"

More like, give me a kidney or marry my daughter.

Fred Swanson

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Dial Hard

You'd have to be able to prove that she was incapable of consummating the marriage, as opposed to just refusing to do so.

Lots of info here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/civil_annulment/nullity_of_marriage.html

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I don't think this is correct. It's not a condition for getting an annulment (or a divorce) in Ireland that the marriage should have been celebrated in Ireland.

billy few mates

efb wrote: »

And a cartoon...

Yes but it's based on real life...have you never been to America....?

conorh91

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Sorry to nitpick (well, this is legal discussion) but consummation is not a requirement of anything; certainly not a valid marriage.

Consummation is a valid basis for an annulment, not a requirement for a valid marriage. Subtle, pedantic but important difference.

Marcusm

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think this is correct. It's not a condition for getting an annulment (or a divorce) in Ireland that the marriage should have been celebrated in Ireland.

Would it not be the case that for an Irish Court to determine that a marriage purported to have been formed under a foreign law to apply that same foreign law to determine whether it was null/void? In which case, surely recourse to the relevant foreign court might be more expeditious as the relevant judges and lawyers would, by definition, be more familiar with the necessary flaws.

Fred Swanson

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Peregrinus

Marcusm wrote: »

Would it not be the case that for an Irish Court to determine that a marriage purported to have been formed under a foreign law to apply that same foreign law to determine whether it was null/void? In which case, surely recourse to the relevant foreign court might be more expeditious as the relevant judges and lawyers would, by definition, be more familiar with the necessary flaws.

This one's a bit complicated.

As regards the formal requirements for the marriage ceremony, local law applies, and the Irish courts will (if necessary) investigate what the local law is and apply it. So if you go to France and get married in a purely Catholic ceremony, that's not a valid marriage under French law, and so the Irish courts will take the view that you are not married, even though had you gone through exactly the same ceremony in Ireland you would have been married. You have to comply with the local law regarding the marriage ceremony, but not with Irish law.

But as regards your personal capacity to marry, if you are Irish-domiciled then as far as the Irish courts are concerned Irish law applies to determine your capacity to marry anywhere in the world. So if you are looking to annul your marriage on the grounds of lack of consent, or lack of capacity, or non-consummation due to impotence, or being too young, it doesn't matter where the marriage was celebrated. Irish law applies to determine whether at that age, or under that degree of duress, or whatever, you could contract a valid marriage. You can get married at 15 in some countries, but if you are Irish-domiciled your marriage will not be recognised in Ireland.

Marcusm

Peregrinus wrote: »

This one's a bit complicated.

As regards the formal requirements for the marriage ceremony, local law applies, and the Irish courts will (if necessary) investigate what the local law is and apply it. So if you go to France and get married in a purely Catholic ceremony, that's not a valid marriage under French law, and so the Irish courts will take the view that you are not married, even though had you gone through exactly the same ceremony in Ireland you would have been married. You have to comply with the local law regarding the marriage ceremony, but not with Irish law.

But as regards your personal capacity to marry, if you are Irish-domiciled then as far as the Irish courts are concerned Irish law applies to determine your capacity to marry anywhere in the world. So if you are looking to annul your marriage on the grounds of lack of consent, or lack of capacity, or non-consummation due to impotence, or being too young, it doesn't matter where the marriage was celebrated. Irish law applies to determine whether at that age, or under that degree of duress, or whatever, you could contract a valid marriage. You can get married at 15 in some countries, but if you are Irish-domiciled your marriage will not be recognised in Ireland.

I'll disagree with your first para in that undergoing the identical ceremony in Ireland to that in France would not result in a valid marriage unless it was accompanied by signing the register! Not sure how old you are but there must have been thousands of Irish marriages in the 1980s in Catholic Churches which were not valid civil marriages - generally those of people who obtained church annulments but who civil marriages were extant.

As regards the situation regarding underage or completely lacking in capacity, I can understand. However, it should be noted that there are factors permissible in an Irish marriage (such as financial inducements or marriage for visa purposes) which would invalidate a UK marriage (for example) but an Irish marriage would be respected in the UK.

Irrespective, I still think the OP would be best advised to deal with the matter through foreign lawyers and foreign courts as he is likelier to get an early reading as to the likelihood of an annulment. I doubt that he is 15 or under and I suspect that he does not suffer from any other lack of capacity from an Irish perspective!

Fred Swanson

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Irishmale0399

If the person in question and his Indian ladyfriend or better said now wife were to marry in Holland one or both would have to be either a Dutch resisdent (legally registered with a fixed abode for at least 6 weeks within the Nederlands) or a Dutch passort holder. If this was not the case then the marriage in Holland is null and void.

goz83

Marcusm wrote: »

Irrespective, I still think the OP would be best advised to deal with the matter through foreign lawyers and foreign courts as he is likelier to get an early reading as to the likelihood of an annulment. I doubt that he is 15 or under and I suspect that he does not suffer from any other lack of capacity from an Irish perspective!

OP here. Just to be clear, I am quite happily married and have 4 kids with my wife of several years. So, I won't be needing any lawyers

I do know a person in this type of predicament though. The said wedding was in Europe, but not holland. It would be best if I left it at that though.

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

If the person in question and his Indian ladyfriend or better said now wife were to marry in Holland one or both would have to be either a Dutch resisdent (legally registered with a fixed abode for at least 6 weeks within the Nederlands) or a Dutch passort holder. If this was not the case then the marriage in Holland is null and void.

I do know that the wedding happened in Europe (won't mention exactly where) and both people live in Ireland, one being Irish and the other was on a work visa. The guy was only in the country of marriage for a few days on a city break. It's all regrets and no action though.

Peregrinus

Marcusm wrote: »

I'll disagree with your first para in that undergoing the identical ceremony in Ireland to that in France would not result in a valid marriage unless it was accompanied by signing the register!

Not so. If you marry in Ireland in a Catholic (or Anglican, or . . .) church ceremony, that ceremony is itself legally valid. Because you are legally married you are obliged to register the fact, and failing to do so is an offence. But failing to register an otherwise valid marriage doesn't affect its validity- you're still validly legally married, though without a state marriage certificate you might have difficulty proving it.

Marcusm wrote: »

Not sure how old you are but there must have been thousands of Irish marriages in the 1980s in Catholic Churches which were not valid civil marriages - generally those of people who obtained church annulments but who civil marriages were extant.

I'm old enough to remember this well.

Those marriage were not legally valid - not because they were unregistered, but because they were bigamous. One of the spouses was already married to someone else. If they had been registered, they would still not have been valid.

It was the policy of the DPP at the time not to prosecute the couple concerned, or the celebrant, for celebrating a bigamous marriage (which is an offence) provided there was no deception - i.e. both spouses fully understood and accepted that the marriage was not legally recognised.

For the record, I don't think there were "thousands" of such marriages. Because of the legal grey area in which they operated, the Catholic chuch was chary about celebrating them, and the couple concerned were often encouraged to go to another jurisdiction (i.e. Newry) and have a church wedding there which was not legally recognised by local law, so as to avoid the bigamy problem.

Marcusm wrote: »

As regards the situation regarding underage or completely lacking in capacity, I can understand. However, it should be noted that there are factors permissible in an Irish marriage (such as financial inducements or marriage for visa purposes) which would invalidate a UK marriage (for example) but an Irish marriage would be respected in the UK.

Sure. And it can sometimes be a bit unclear whether a particular challenge to the validity of a foreign marriage falls into the class which is considered under the law of the place of celebration, or into the class which is considered under the law of the domicile of the parties. But on this particular issue Irish law is pretty clear. The challenge to the marriage in the OP will be on the basis of non-consummation due to impotence. That goes to the personal characteristics of the spouses, their capacity and competence for marriage, and it has nothing to do with where the actual marriage ceremony was celebrated. It will be decided according to the law of their domicile.

Marcusm wrote: »

Irrespective, I still think the OP would be best advised to deal with the matter through foreign lawyers and foreign courts as he is likelier to get an early reading as to the likelihood of an annulment. I doubt that he is 15 or under and I suspect that he does not suffer from any other lack of capacity from an Irish perspective!

If he is settled in Ireland, and intends to remain here with his new wife, then it crucially matters to him whether his second marriage will be recognised in Ireland. I have no doubt that he can marry abroad and that may be the route he chooses, but he should certainly take Irish advice on whether his second marriage will be recognised in Ireland, and whether there are practical steps he can take to minimise the downside risk to his spouse and any children they may have if it is not.

Peregrinus

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Why would that be a problem? If he is settled in Ireland, and intends to remain here with his new spouse, and his property, etc, is in Ireland, is he at all affected by the possibility that a court in, say, Minnesota might take the view that his first marriage was still in place? Why would he care?

He needs to worry about the validity of his marriage in the jurisdiction in which he is settled, and in any other jurisdiction in which his estate is likely to have significant property. Beyond that, I don't see that it matters.

Balf

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I'd have had similar expectations (taking on board the clarification that consummation isn't a requirement for validity, but an impediment to consummation can be a ground for annulment).

Do we know why the Marriage Act left this issue untouched?