Licensee asking if friend can stay indefinitely

Elto78

Hi
i would like some advice
my lodger told me tonight she has a friend who wants to come from abroad.
i rent a room and she can have visitors
i asked her for how long. I have no issues if she has family/ friends visiting her for holidays.
in this case she said she wouldnt know as he would need to find a job here and its hard.
i told her for holidays ok but i would not feel comfortable having a third person in a 2 bedroom flat long term.and she said at least a month.
my fear is that he might not find in a month.and that he will then stay more than a month
and if longer he might not leave as comfortable in my flat.
she didnt even talked bout rent or bills sharing

Is it bad i said no?
We do have a contract stating she cant make anyone move in. It s a flat share but for one person only

athtrasna

Anything more than a week would be taking the proverbial imo. I would never agree to an indefinite stay, I think you have done the right thing in saying no.

Victor

Elto78 wrote: »

Is it bad i said no?

No, you are setting a reasonable boundary. Often, certain people when given an inch, will take a mile - you have no idea what the visitor is like..

DivingDuck

Asking to have someone stay in the room you rent, in a two-bedroom apartment, for an indefinite period of time is absolutely ludicrous. It's also possible that you could end up in the dreaded "renting with a couple" situation and end up feeling uncomfortable and squeezed out of your own home.

The fact that she suggested this without any mention of increasing her share of the bills (or getting her friend to kick in) really makes it sound like she is trying to take advantage.

I would say no to anyone coming to stay if they don't have a leaving date specified.

I think you did absolutely the right thing.

Elto78

Oh her male friend wouldnt share her room. He would sleep on the sofa bed of the living room.therefore my living room would become his bedroom.

Elto78

Thank you all for all replies
makes me feel like i am not in the wrong for saying no.

whomitconcerns

Elto78 wrote: »

Oh her male friend wouldnt share her room. He would sleep on the sofa bed of the living room.therefore my living room would become his bedroom.

On that basis alone you were right to say no.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Elto78 wrote: »

Oh her male friend wouldnt share her room. He would sleep on the sofa bed of the living room.therefore my living room would become his bedroom.

Christ, that's even worse. Not only were you right to say no, it's amazing you didn't p1ss yourself laughing in the process.

Elto78

Just thought was very cheecky as contract clearly say she will not live in flat with anyone else than me and that it s a rent for single use.so not allowed to let anyone moving in. It s in contact so why ask?

Pawwed Rig

Cheeky alright but you can't blame someone for trying. By the way if you are the owner occupier that contract is a worthless document.

Elto78

Not worthless as per solicitor who draw it
it is a licence
Should a dispute arise as to whether a user of a premises has a licence or a lease, a Court will look at what the parties intended, not what they say afterwards

At the end of the day i live in the flat and i do not want to be stuck with someone i dont know for months or a couple.as unsure if it is only a friend or not.
if she was sharing with other tenants and not an owner occupier she would still have to respect other tenants if they would not like it too.

BabySlam

OP, it was unwise of you to permit overnight visitors in any circumstances if you are reluctant to decine or limit the requests. Blaming the licencee for asking for something you appear to find acceptable within certain criteria is pointless - the licensee is trying to find out what is acceptable.
Make it clear what is OK and if you allow 2 weeks on your sofa, then how much he has to pay etc

Elto78

BabySlam wrote: »

Make it clear what is OK and if you allow 2 weeks on your sofa, then how much he has to pay etc

All was explained and all is in licence .i am not blaming at all but i wanted to know if i was right for saying : sorry no
your above sentence is exactly what i did not want. He can stay as a visitor but 2 weeks max. I don't want him to pay for after 2 weeks until he finds a job as how long is it going to take. And if his English is not good it will take long.
the flat share is for one person only, this was in the advert . repeated during our chats and in the licence agreement therefore very clear.

I even proposed he could stay but 2 weeks max but she wanted longer and her answer was he wont find a job in 2 weeks. so it is definately going to be a long stay so no sorry. I live here too. and it would feel bit crowded here.

At this point it is no longer a visitor but some living here

For visitor you can't really say no at all time as everyone is allowed to have q friend over for coffee movie or a boyfriend/girlfriend. It s life you cant say no.
i never had issues on this point before my previous lodgers were good on this point and not abusing on it at all.

CollyFlower

Her friend should have enough money to cover their costs for at least 2 months... You don't arrive in a foreign country penniless /euroless... I wouldn't let them stay even one night!

athtrasna

Two weeks is an incredibly generous offer imo, 5 nights would be my maximum.

Elto78

well i tried to find a compromise but this clearly was not long enough for her as he would not find a job in 2 weeks and i would not like someone living here until they find a job. that can last for months. and i am now thinking he could come 2 weeks and then not move out either. so fact she wasn't happy for the 2 weeks she got a no as an answer as not comfortable for me.

and if it is more than a friend, i will then end up with a couple. it would be a difficult situation once they actually are the 2 of them in the flat.

she still can have visitors and overnight stay but not someone coming from abroad, living here until he finds a job. as this is then not a visitor.

i do not think now it is unreasonable for me to say no as i do live here too
and i also obeys by these rules too even though i own the place

she has not pushed for it again so we ll see.

foggy_lad

Elto78 wrote: »

Oh her male friend wouldnt share her room. He would sleep on the sofa bed of the living room.therefore my living room would become his bedroom.

I would be giving this person reasonable notice to get herself out of your home! you giving her extra rights by having a contract does not help matters at all as you must stick to what is in the contract.

Elto78 wrote: »

Not worthless as per solicitor who draw it
it is a licence
Should a dispute arise as to whether a user of a premises has a licence or a lease, a Court will look at what the parties intended, not what they say afterwards

At the end of the day i live in the flat and i do not want to be stuck with someone i dont know for months or a couple.as unsure if it is only a friend or not.
if she was sharing with other tenants and not an owner occupier she would still have to respect other tenants if they would not like it too.

That solicitor is a bit of an ass really! once a person lives with the owner of a property they are a licensee not a tenant, there can be no ambiguity about this! you never give a rent book or anything else that tenants get, the most they would be entitled to is a receipt for rent and their share of the bills. You also never have a contract as this gives the guest in your house rights.

Elto78

she only gets receipts as i need them too. so i have a receipt book.
i wanted the licence to protect me too.
about no smoking in flat only on balcony, about damages in flat and all, rent days and late payment etc...
and about visitors in order no to end up in this situation.

but seems that licence or not people still try.
we did not have any issue so far so giving her notice is a bit harsh.

i will see how it goes in next few weeks. but as she did not push i say it is ok

she s over 40 years old so not irresponsible either.
so now i re-explained nicely i hope this will go without

but there is a sentence stating any breach of contract will result in asking her to leave without a month notice.

so yes i have to obey certain rules but i don't mind as it protects me on other points

it is all about compromising. and i try to make it as fair as possible as lodger pays rent it is their home too.

foggy_lad

Elto78 wrote: »

she only gets receipts as i need them too. so i have a receipt book.
i wanted the licence to protect me too.
about no smoking in flat only on balcony, about damages in flat and all, rent days and late payment etc...
and about visitors in order no to end up in this situation.

but seems that licence or not people still try.
we did not have any issue so far so giving her notice is a bit harsh.

i will see how it goes in next few weeks. but as she did not push i say it is ok

she s over 40 years old so not irresponsible either.
so now i re-explained nicely i hope this will go without

but there is a sentence stating any breach of contract will result in asking her to leave without a month notice.

so yes i have to obey certain rules but i don't mind as it protects me on other points

it is all about compromising. and i try to make it as fair as possible as lodger pays rent it is their home too.

It is 100% your home! this person is your guest so it is a place they live and sleep but is certainly not their home.

K.Flyer

If you allow the person to stay for 2 weeks be prepared for them to stay much longer. As soon as they have their feet under the table it could be much harder to get them to leave if their plans don't work out and they have no money or anywhere else to go.

the_syco

If the visitor stays longer than two weeks, look at evicting both of them.

Not sure what the contract you gave your licensee said, but you may have given her more rights than a licensee would usually have.

Elto78

oh i have it covered any breach of contract result in eviction

don't think he will come now even for 2 weeks
she has not talked to me since

Pawwed Rig

Elto78 wrote: »

she has not talked to me since

Sounds unreasonable. If this was to continue I would be getting rid of her completely. Life is too short to be uncomfortable in your own house*


*assuming you are owner occupier

Elto78

oh i am the owner occupier indeed.
defo too short and i don't have the time for this
and i do not feel uncomfortable i did the right thing and even compromised which i did not have to
so i do as usual

Leogirl

I'm an owner occupier+ learned the hard way about letting guests stay. After one bad tenant who went from the odd night the odd weekend to him staying for free for 2 weeks on holiday- I wouldn't allow guests for more than the odd night with plenty of notice, at a push.

Bills were higher, things were damaged, food taken, personal space just felt totally invaded. Never again!!

Marcusm

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is 100% your home! this person is your guest so it is a place they live and sleep but is certainly not their home.

Guests don't pay; customers do. Both the owner and lodger are entitled to and required to provide respect. I don't have an issue with the OP's statements but some of the comments about the lodger having no rights is laughable. If they live there on an indefinite basis, it is certainly their home.

the_syco

Marcusm wrote: »

but some of the comments about the lodger having no rights is laughable.

Actually, if they're a licensee, you don't really. You may be thinking of tenants. Tenants have lots more rights than a licensee.

Ken.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/sharing_accommodation_with_your_landlord.html

Rules

As you are living in your landlord's home, you do not have a standard tenancy agreement. Instead, you have a 'licensee agreement' with your landlord. This means that you are in the property by the landlord’s consent or invitation. As a result, you cannot avail of the type of protection that tenants are entitled to under the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.

The position is the same if you are living with a spouse, child or parent of a landlord and you do not have a tenancy agreement or written lease.

As you do not have the same rights as someone whose tenancy comes under the landlord and tenant legislation, you should be aware of the following:

Your landlord is not obliged to provide you with a rent book or a statement of rent paid
He does not have to ensure that your accommodation meets any minimum physical standards
Any notice you may get of the termination of the tenancy is at the discretion of your landlord (although he is obliged to give reasonable notice, the specifics of this notice may vary)
Your landlord is not obliged to register the tenancy with the Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB)
You cannot use the PRTB's dispute resolution service if a disagreement arises between you and your landlord
You are not protected by the Equal Status Acts 2000-2012, which prohibit discrimination on grounds of gender, civil status, family status, age, race, religion, disability, sexual orientation and membership of the Traveller community


Agreement with your landlord

Before you arrange to share accommodation with your landlord, it is strongly recommended that you agree some ground rules with him and put them in writing. If you and your landlord each sign and keep a copy of this agreement, you can both refer to its terms in the event of confusion or disagreement. These ground rules might include:

How long is the tenancy going to last?
How much notice will either you or your landlord have to give if either of you chooses to end the tenancy?
How much rent will you pay and how often (for example, weekly, monthly)?
How will this rent be paid (cash, cheque, standing order etc.)?
When will the rent to be reviewed and how much notice will your landlord give you of a rent review?
How are utility bills (electricity, gas, phone, water) to be divided between yourself and the landlord?
Will your landlord expect you to contribute towards refuse collection charges?
Can you have visitors to stay overnight?
Are there any restrictions regarding noise levels?

Marcusm

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, if they're a licensee, you don't really. You may be thinking of tenants. Tenants have lots more rights than a licensee.

I'm not a moron, I do understand the distinction.

Tenancy rights have been incorporated into statute law since 2004. Prior to that most lodgers had similar rights as to tenure, ie periodic tenants and licencees could be turfed out with one periods notice. Licensees/lodgers don't have statutory rights but they have contractual rights and in this case the OP has, unconventionally, committed them to writing.

Guests are there at the property owners will; they can be instructed to depart forthwith.

The conflation of these circumstances is laughable.

Elto78

The reason why I have a licensee agreement is :
- Because people tend to forget rules or try to avoid them and say oh we do not have anything in writing we forgot. Therefore in this case they cannot use this excuse as this is in the licensee agreement.
- To protect myself in case someone does not pay. and avoid any potential issues

Ok I respect the same rules myself even if I do not have to but it is to ensure there is no issue in the house. I would not do to people what I would not like them to do to me.

It might be a bit unconventional to have a written agreement signed by owner occupier and lodger but since I do it. it has made things easier to everyone. As a chat I respect you and you respect me do not always work. and people tend to forget verbal communication

I had a lodger leaving years ago without paying or giving any notice and his argument was there is nothing written about the notice even though this was mentioned a few times verbally.

At least when you have it in writing all is clear and you can’t sneak your way out.

Now even though they are lodgers as they pay rent, I want them to feel at home. And not babysit them as I have other things to do.

If you keep having rules and they can’t do anything and you can do it all it creates a bad atmosphere.

But I might put a note about visitor with an amount of time per week in the licensee agreement to make things a bit clearer even though I do have a sentence covering the fact they cannot bring anyone to live in the flat. Which would be the current issue I have and only issue I had with my lodger so far.

Greenmachine

Even in a house share, this would be taking the proverbial. You have the upper hand here OP. Don't let your tenant, set the agenda, this is your home.

Elto78

this is what I told her
that if she was sharing a flat with another tenant she also would need to ask if ok
and if not they she can't

in this case I have made my answer quite clear and long term stay until this person finds a job is a big NO.

and I did explain reason why.

so now my point has been made or she stays or she goes. but I do not feel I am in the wrong in this case at all.

Marcusm

Elto78 wrote: »

Licensees/lodgers don't have statutory rights but they have contractual rights and in this case the OP has, unconventionally, committed them to writing.

The conflation of these circumstances is laughable.

By describing your written agreement as "unconventional", I was not criticising it. What you have described in your posts is a sensible, sensitive and common sense approach to sharing your property with a paying lodger. You are to be commended for that. Personally, I would not have agreed to 2 weeks of the third person in any circumstances.

What I decry are those seeking to suggest that your lodger's position in your property is so tenuous as to permit them no entitlements whatsoever.

Elto78

sorry if I thought you were sorry

The 2 weeks is now out of the questions anyway as she did not want them as not long enough for him to find a job. it is her way or the highway apparently.

And I will not offer them again as I would now fear he will not leave now.

she probably thought I would say yes as I am nice but I did not. There are rules and if I respect the rules as the owner so should she as the lodger. I feel trust is gone a bit. she only has been here 3 months btw. so I always try to explain nicely but in this case I clearly see I kind of ruined her plan. and this is not my problem.

I normally select lodgers on interview basis so I see a lot, take notes and then decide.

and it was in the licensee agreement she signed, visitors are allowed but as everyone said and myself included this would then not be a visitor as it would be long term which is clearly outside of the agreement she signed.

if I was to move in with my Boyfriend I would then give her a month notice as privacy for me is a big thing. and I kind of expect the same.

maybe not all people have the same respect than I have for others