Speaking correctly

nc19

Hi all,

Might be a ridiculous thing to be worried about at this point but worried I am.

My 3 and a half year old is pronouncing words poorly and i'm driven mad with it. I was brought up in a nice area and taught the speak correctly, not posh just correctly.
We live in an area a bit more working class than where I was brought up and the girls in the creche are from this area and as such speak the way people speak and my daughter is picking up on it.

Please don't dismiss me as a snob. Some people won't see it as an issue but I suspect these people probably speak like this too.

Is it something I should be trying to change now or should I just let the teacher in school sort it when she starts there?

When I say speaking correctly I mean saying words like day-er instead of there and stay-ers instead of stairs and the usual tree instead of three.

Flippyfloppy

All I can say is as your child grows it will pass....it's just environmental.

Also, the way your child is speaking is with an accent, not incorrectly. Try not to project this opinion onto your child , they are very sensitive to these things.

Also don't count on your teacher 'sorting it' I don't think any are like that anymore, and such is their workload 'fixing' accents are certainly not going to be a top priority.

Be happy you have a healthy, functioning child. Many parents would kill to have their child speak at all.

MrWalsh

Children pick up the accent of their peers, not their parents.

If you want your child to have a middle class accent, send them to school with middle class kids.

idnkph

Sorry but you do sound like a snob. Your child learns from their peers. You'd better get out of the working class area that shames you before your child is poisoned by this sub class.
They will only bring shame on you. Your post says so much about you. I'd this is what worries you about your child then I feel sorry for them.

gouche

idnkph wrote: »

Sorry but you do sound like a snob. Your child learns from their peers. You'd better get out of the working class area that shames you before your child is poisoned by this sub class.
They will only bring shame on you. Your post says so much about you. I'd this is what worries you about your child then I feel sorry for them.

Bit harsh but I'd echo the sentiment of others in this thread.
Your child is only learning from it's peers. I wouldn't be overly concerned about how they are pronouncing words at this stage - they are only three.

Permabear

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nc19

Flippyfloppy wrote:

Be happy you have a healthy, functioning child. Many parents would kill to have their child speak at all.

But the 2 don't have to be mutually exclusive do they?

MrWalsh wrote:

If you want your child to have a middle class accent, send them to school with middle class kids.

That's the plan tbh but it may not happen for a few yrs as we are hoping to move back to where we grew up.

Flippyfloppy wrote:

Also don't count on your teacher 'sorting it' I don't think any are like that anymore, and such is their workload 'fixing' accents are certainly not going to be a top priority.

I don't mean I plan on washing my hands of my own responsibilities I just mean that when I was in school the teachers taught us the TH rhyme and things like that....

idnkph wrote:

Sorry but you do sound like a snob. Your child learns from their peers. You'd better get out of the working class area that shames you before your child is poisoned by this sub class. They will only bring shame on you. Your post says so much about you. I'd this is what worries you about your child then I feel sorry for them.

Such a hate filled post! It must be hard to walk around with that chip on your shoulder!
I never said I'm ashamed of my area or my child! I like my house, my road, my estate and my immediate area thanks very much. The area I grew up in is a better area with different people and it's an area I aspire to get back to and i'm not apologising for it.

Anyway, back on topic....

nc19

Permabear wrote:

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No need to be so defensive! If you're happy where you are that's great. I'm happy where I am too but I'd be happier in the area I grew up in like most people I'd imagine

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Flippyfloppy

nc19 wrote: »

But the 2 don't have to be mutually exclusive do they?




I don't mean I plan on washing my hands of my own responsibilities I just mean that when I was in school the teachers taught us the TH rhyme and things like that...


.

No no, being both happy & healthy at the same time is what I meant....which is how I assume your child is, enjoying crèche , having friends there, speaking, enjoying life.

I wasn't implying you want to wash your hands of responsibilities, I was implying that enunciations may not even be in the primary school curriculum anymore.

Tbh nc19 I don't think it's fair the way you're thinking of this as a problem. I think it's more of a 'you' issue you need to work on that anything to do with your child. If it makes you feel any better you can bet your bottom dollar that even if some words have a different twang on them the majority of her accent will be like yours. But bear in mind, children adapt to their surroundings as a way of fitting in. That's part of why she is talking like her peers now, and if you do move to a different area her accent may again change.

Diamond Doll

When my sister was around that age she started to pick up the local accent ... a very rough Sligo accent, e.g. water was pronounced "Waaaaw-er", she sort of drawled a lot of words and missed letters and added extra syllables. My parents absolutely would not stand for it at all, my mum would firmly correct her each and every time, and she wouldn't get whatever she was looking for until she pronounced the word correctly.

It got to the stage when she started correcting all the other kids on their pronunciation - ordering them not to drawl etc, in the exact tone my mother would use with her - I'm sure the other children's parents must have thought she was an awful little snob when they overheard her!

Anyways it worked, she has quite a neutral accent now, and the Sligo drawl only comes out when she's angry or upset (I think she puts it on just to annoy my mother sometimes!)

I think you're right to be concerned about it and to try to break those bad habits now, as it'll only be more difficult as she gets older. I would firmly but gently correct her each time, and ask her to repeat the word correctly before allowing the conversation to continue. Read with her as much as possible when she's at home. And she's not too young to use flashcards - make homemade ones, with the words she's most likely to mispronounce, and with pictures where possible. You could have a little reward system for when she pronounces them correctly.

Don't be surprised if she starts correcting the other children or the creche workers when they mispronounce words that you've been working on with her at home - there's definitely potential for some embarrassing situations there. I think it's worth it in the long run though, accents can make a big difference when people grow up in terms of job opportunities etc. So it's definitely worth putting the time and effort into correcting her now. As she gets older, it'll be easier to explain to her that she shouldn't correct other people. To minimise potential embarrassment, it's probably best to aim for positive reinforcement rather than telling her the other way of pronouncing it is "wrong". Maybe use statements like "This is how we pronounce the word in this house. X pronounces it differently, and that's fine, but this is how our family pronounces it." (Possibly easier to explain it in those terms when she's a little bit older!)

I really don't think you sound like a snob at all. It's understandable that you want what's best for your child.

January

My daughter said 'free' instead of three until about last year. She could say everything else correctly except that and yellow (lello until last year too). Those words are not a working class thing in fact myself and my children are from a working class area and I do not speak that way at all.

nc19

Permabear wrote:

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I disagree. My sister lived in a much worse area than I and her child speaks very well, totally different to the kids in the area.

idnkph

Such a hate filled post! It must be hard to walk around with that chip on your shoulder!
I never said I'm ashamed of my area or my child! I like my house, my road, my estate and my immediate area thanks very much. The area I grew up in is a better area with different people and it's an area I aspire to get back to and i'm not apologising for it.

Anyway, back on topic....[/quote]

I think you will find that you are the one with the chip on your shoulder. Your child doesn't speak the way you were brought up to think is right.
I have 2 close friends with 3 children who can't speak and you are worried about the way your child pronounces words.
You were obviously brought up thinking that this is the right way to speak but in all honesty it's buying into prejudice. Our education system was built on this prejudice. It comes from the so called upper class.
There is not one book to say that how to pronounce certain words is wrong or right.
Be thankful your child can speak and be proud of them. If we all walked around talking all la di dah it would be a very boring world.

tradhead

Tbh your child is probably better off sounding like her friends. Kids will pick up on anything "different" and if you try to get him/her to sound more like you and less like them, they could be picked on for it.

nc19

Thanks for all the advice.

I'm well aware that it's more of a 'me' issue at the moment but I can't help wanting the best for my child. What one person considers 'the best' may well vastly differ to someone else but that doesn't mean either person should be criticised for what they percive to be the best. My beliefs stem from how I was brought up and I was glad to be brought up that way so it's only natural to want to bring my child up that way and I won't apologise for it.

My own parents are from a rough enough area and they broke their backs getting out of there and giving the best to us so that we could have a better life than they did.

I'll probably ease off slightly as the last thing I want to do is give her a complex at this age!

hoodwinked

op for what it's worth as we live in Cork i too was worried about accent's, in Cork the stereotypical accent can be very strong, and tbh it grates on me when i hear it.


most of our neighbours and their children speak with the stereotypical accent (even though we live in a considered "posh" area) so where you live doesn't really factor in to it. even though she hears them speak this way her school teachers/friends would speak the same way she does, none of this "arite biy, hows it gooooin" stuff you'd hear around here, and she has developed a gorgeous accent where she speaks properly.

for things like tree/three, get flashcards and teach her that tree = thing with leaves and branches, three = number, any words like day-er just repeat them to her constantly yourself and she'll soon pick it up, so if she says "i want to go day-er" you just repeat "you want to go there?...ok let's go there"


things like that should help,

Diamond Doll

idnkph wrote: »

I think you will find that you are the one with the chip on your shoulder. Your child doesn't speak the way you were brought up to think is right.
I have 2 close friends with 3 children who can't speak and you are worried about the way your child pronounces words.
You were obviously brought up thinking that this is the right way to speak but in all honesty it's buying into prejudice. Our education system was built on this prejudice. It comes from the so called upper class.
There is not one book to say that how to pronounce certain words is wrong or right.
Be thankful your child can speak and be proud of them. If we all walked around talking all la di dah it would be a very boring world.

Oh come on, that's like saying that it's fine to feed kids junk food, because there are children in Africa that don't get fed at all, so you should just be happy that your child is getting fed at all, even if it's not healthy food.

It's possible to acknowledge that your child is in the lucky privileged position of being able to speak at all, but still to want them to speak as properly as possible.

I don't think OP wants her child to start talking "all la di dah", I get the impression s/he is just hoping for a neutral accent. And the younger they start working on this, the easier it'll be to break the bad habits.

Flippyfloppy

I do know a few parents in my area (of neutral accented people) who had kids who took up accents like the one you describe in your op. They thought of it as a funny, cute little quirk and knew it came from their playschool teacher or whoever. Those kids now all have a neutral accent now.... Not that it matters!

tradhead

This little piggy wrote: »

Oh come on, that's like saying that it's fine to feed kids junk food, because there are children in Africa that don't get fed at all, so you should just be happy that your child is getting fed at all, even if it's not healthy food.

It's possible to acknowledge that your child is in the lucky privileged position of being able to speak at all, but still to want them to speak as properly as possible.

I don't think OP wants her child to start talking "all la di dah", I get the impression s/he is just hoping for a neutral accent. And the younger they start working on this, the easier it'll be to break the bad habits.

I actually disagree. I think that the important thing at that age is that they are talking, and able to communicate properly. Where I come from there is a very strong accent, and myself and all my siblings would have had it probably throughout primary school, although to a lesser extent than my peers as my mam is from a different area and has a different accent so it probably got a bit "diluted" . Myself and my sister now have completely neutral accents (apart from when I'm home for a couple of weeks and it slips back in!).

At three years old, fair enough if you want to correct the "th" sounds etc but anything else I think is just worrying yourself unnecessarily.

Ashbx

OP I grew up in a very nice area...and still live in that area. My entire family talk (as you call it) "correctly". Whereas I, have a much stronger Dublin accent compared to that of my family (which, in your eyes means I don't talk "correctly"). And that's because my friends were more "working class" and I picked up from them growing up. I can assure you that my family did not think any less of me or did not try "fix" me because of my accent! Its an accent....not a real issue! I should also add in here that my mum is a speech therapist and never felt the need to make me talk "correctly"!

But having a "working class" accent doesn't make the slightest bit of difference who your daughter is or will grow up to be!

I do feel for you how the other posters have jumped on you - some may be a bit harsh. But by immediately insulting people with comments like " Some people won't see it as an issue but I suspect these people probably speak like this too"....you will not get a good reaction.....Nor do you deserve a good reaction by being so insulting.

eviltwin

There are 2 issues here. One, your child not pronouncing words correctly which is pretty normal for a 3 yr old. They are still learning to talk at that age. Most young kids make mistakes in pronunciation, it usually sorts itself out as they grow. The second is the accent which is largely guided by the place you live, people you mix with etc. I can understand to some extent why you want your child to speak as you do but an accent is just that, its not an indicator of the character of a person or tells you anything other than where they might be from. I live in a working class area but don't really talk like I do, I'm not better than the ones with a thick accent, try see the person not the voice and don't let your child grow up thinking how they sound is something to be ashamed of.

Permabear

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Second Toughest in_the Freshers

could be worse, i've a niece thats getting cork accent

mordeith

Why is everyone looking for a neutral accent? Sounds like anyone saying that is ashamed of where they grew up.
I'd hate it if everyone spoke the same way. And for those who talk about 'bad habits' it's an accent, not incorrect speech.

Ashbx

mordeith wrote: »

Why is everyone looking for a neutral accent? Sounds like anyone saying that is ashamed of where they grew up.
I'd hate it if everyone spoke the same way. And for those who talk about 'bad habits' it's an accent, not incorrect speech.

I agree! There is a big difference to an accent and a genuine speech problem. This is not a genuine speech problem!

MrWalsh

Ashbx wrote: »

But having a "working class" accent doesn't make the slightest bit of difference who your daughter is or will grow up to be!

It wont, but it might have an impact on future employment prospects.

Its happened in a place I worked, 2 people went for a particular role, not a customer facing role, an internal role where 99% of the time the only communication they would have would be with other staff.

One applicant had stellar qualifications and a "common" accent.
One applicant had less stellar qualifications and a "posh" accent.

They offered the job to the second person because the management are snobs basically.

idnkph

Still all stinks of snobbery I'm afraid. Iv a good country accent that I'm very proud of and think that correcting a 3 year old on how they speak when they are in the first stages of learning how to talk is completely ridiculous.
OP just because its how you were brought up doesn't mean its best for your child. But trying to change the way they speak is complete snobbery.
I'm afraid your child will grow up with your values and worries. Now that is something you should be worrying about.

Woshy

I think three is very young to be worrying about that kind of thing. I read some research (years ago so no idea where to find it) that said accents aren't "fixed" until much later in life (something crazy like 19 years - so your peers/where you're living later on is what you should worry about). My husband moved from South Africa to New Zealand when he was 16 and he has a New Zealand accent. He has lived in Ireland for the majority of the last ten years and his accent is still all kiwi, because that's where he was living in his late teens. So it was accurate for him anyway!

eviltwin

MrWalsh wrote: »

It wont, but it might have an impact on future employment prospects.

Its happened in a place I worked, 2 people went for a particular role, not a customer facing role, an internal role where 99% of the time the only communication they would have would be with other staff.

One applicant had stellar qualifications and a "common" accent.
One applicant had less stellar qualifications and a "posh" accent.

They offered the job to the second person because the management are snobs basically.

She's 3! Her accent may change many times between now and when she's ready to get a job. At that age she should be allowed just be a kid without the issue of how she speaks being raised. You can't really teach someone to speak with a particular accent anyway can you?

I was brought up in a council estate in greater Dublin. My mam and my dad were also brought up in poor, rough, council estates.

We were never allowed to mispronounce words, they weren't ashamed of where they live - they still live there and wouldn't move for love nor money - but they knew that having a "rough" accent meant we would be judged later in life, it might not be right, but it's the way it is. They don't judge people on anything, let alone how they speak, but they are fully aware that other people do.

So I've not really got any advice for you OP, I see where people are coming from with suggesting you don't tell a child they're not speaking correctly, but I don't think you're being a snob, and I fully understand where you're coming from.

Neyite

OP, someone who knows more than me about lingusitics will be able to explain more, but at that age, there are some things that a toddler says that they naturally grow out of: lisping, saying lello instead of yellow, tree instead of three, that sort of thing. So maybe give it a bit of time on that front.

Down the line, things like elocution or drama lessons might hone an accent a bit. I'm not sure that you can really choose a different accent for your children though, I see it all the time in my neighbourhood - little Polish, African, Indian or Pakinstan kids speaking in the local accent when speaking English. A friend of mine and her husband are Chinese, and their kids have a very strong local accent.

But I do think that at 3.5 its a little young to be worrying, their speech is still developing.

anncoates

Shouldn't laugh but I keep thinking of Hyacinth Bucket when I read this thread. :pac:

nc19

idnkph wrote:

.......OP just because its how you were brought up doesn't mean its best for your child. But trying to change the way they speak is complete snobbery. I'm afraid your child will grow up with your values and worries. Now that is something you should be worrying about.

I disagree. I think it is best and as it my child ill make that decision.

My values? I value a well spoken child, why is that something to be worried about?

nc19

MrWalsh wrote:

It wont, but it might have an impact on future employment prospects.

This is one of my concerns

nc19

Ashbx wrote:

But having a "working class" accent doesn't make the slightest bit of difference who your daughter is or will grow up to be!

Never said it did?

Orion

nc19 wrote: »

I disagree. I think it is best and as it my child ill make that decision.

My values? I value a well spoken child, why is that something to be worried about?

Personally I value well behaved, well mannered, healthy children more than well spoken ones.

eviltwin

anncoates wrote: »

Shouldn't laugh but I keep thinking of Hyacinth Bucket when I read this thread. :pac:

Bouquet dear, bouquet!!

nc19

Ashbx wrote:

..... I should also add in here that my mum is a speech therapist and never felt the need to make me talk "correctly"!

Convenient much......

pmasterson95

anncoates wrote: »

Shouldn't laugh but I keep thinking of Hyacinth Bucket when I read this thread. :pac:

Its pronounced Bouquet

Orion

idnkph wrote: »

Still all stinks of snobbery I'm afraid.

That's now twice you've said snobbery. Less of the name calling please.

MrWalsh

eviltwin wrote: »

She's 3! Her accent may change many times between now and when she's ready to get a job. At that age she should be allowed just be a kid without the issue of how she speaks being raised. You can't really teach someone to speak with a particular accent anyway can you?

I dont disagree and personally I wouldnt be worried about it, Im simply relaying something that I know happened in a workplace of mine - I thought it was extremely bad form personally, but thems the breaks. Unfortunately preconceptions towards certain accents exist.

eviltwin

nc19 wrote: »

Never said it did?

Just be careful you don't push your prejudice onto her. You say you grew up in a nice area, well this is her area and she should be allowed feel proud of where she is from and the people she knows from there. Don't forget if you stay and she goes to school there that she will be friends with people from this area. Don't let her feel there is something wrong with that.

pmasterson95

eviltwin wrote: »

Bouquet dear, bouquet!!

Damn you.

nc19

Ashbx wrote:

......But by immediately insulting people with comments like " Some people won't see it as an issue but I suspect these people probably speak like this too"....you will not get a good reaction.....Nor do you deserve a good reaction by being so insulting.

If someone feels insulted by this then they must believe it. It's hard to be insulted by something you don't believe.

I'm fat. If someone says to me that all fat people are smelly I won't be insulted because I don't believe it!

Ashbx

nc19 wrote: »

This is one of my concerns

That may have happened in their workplace but I am a legal executive and a receptionist....I talk to clients from 9-5 every single day! This has NEVER affected me getting a job! We have foreign people here, people with country accents, people with northern irish accents, people with strong Dublin accents and people with posh accents. That company was obviously run by pretentious d*ckheads.

What other concerns do you have? You never expressed this concern in your original post. What else would a strong accent stop your daughter from doing exactly?

nc19

anncoates wrote:

Shouldn't laugh but I keep thinking of Hyacinth Bucket when I read this thread.

My idol!!!! Lol

anncoates

nc19 wrote: »

My values? I value a well spoken child, why is that something to be worried about?

I was brought up in a very working class area and don't really have a very strong accent to this day. It's just a flat enough, quite neutral accent.

My parents, like others have said, were strict about speaking 'correctly' and politely but they weren't exactly drumming it into me that I had to speak like I was from a 'better' background then I was either.

Basically, it's hard to tell if you simply wish to mask your child's background as opposed to making sure she speaks intelligently (for want of a better word): clearly, not coarsely; politely and with a good vocabulary.

Ashbx

nc19 wrote: »

Convenient much......

Im not being "convenient". Im telling you my situation whether you think its being convenient or not. She has been working with the HSE for over 35 years and is based in Dublin 14.

Happy to give you her details if you would like to try make an appointment. PM me if you want them.

To think I actually felt bad for the way people were jumping down your neck about this!

Ashbx

MrWalsh wrote: »

It wont, but it might have an impact on future employment prospects.

Its happened in a place I worked, 2 people went for a particular role, not a customer facing role, an internal role where 99% of the time the only communication they would have would be with other staff.

One applicant had stellar qualifications and a "common" accent.
One applicant had less stellar qualifications and a "posh" accent.

They offered the job to the second person because the management are snobs basically.

That's awful isn't it! You'd wonder what difference does it make? I don't really see an issue having a Dublin accent and interacting with the clients. We (well I am anyway) are in Dublin after all so I do expect to hear Dublin accents!

Miaireland

I wouldn't be too worried to be honest if your child is speaking correctly and with good vocabulary, grammer etc.

My Aunt and Uncle had a similar problem where their daughter spoke very similar to one of the ladies working in her creche However she was copying her poor grammer and mispronounced many words. They enrolled her in Speech and Drama and it is not an issue anymore.