National Series - What a shambles

rooneyjm

After re arranging the whole format to try get more buy in from people, there isn't one race updated to the TI website. It just says "no results currently available". What a joke. What kind of interest are they hoping to get when you can't see what anyone else in your age group is doing. Imagine if the Premier League said to all the teams, lads play all your matches but we wont tell you the others results until the season is over?

noc231073

Totally agree...
What is going on.... !!!
Some people have completed all the races for the NS already and no points !!
And another thing I tought the Cat 1 guys had their own race why are they being listed in the overall placing along with the rest of us ..
It all a mess

Podge83

Triathlon Ireland's best offering as a reason was this:

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=2366

They did make an attempt at some scores:

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=2363

They're blaming a new website system they are bringing in. Why don't they just use last years system while they are waiting?? As I remember the triathlon National Series results last year weren't too bad.

Its fairly easy to manually work out the points - it might take some time but its the least they can do. It doesn't surprise though as the attempts over the last two years to publish duathlon national series have been very poor. More than half way through the season now and no results up is really a bit of a joke.

catweazle

They are over a year late with this website, it was due for the 2014 season from what I recall. There was probably no will in the office to continue with the existing system with a swanky new one supposedly coming on stream but someone should have been told to take out the calculator when it became obvious it wasn't going to be in place. (Not blaming web company, it might not be their fault for the hold up)

Bambaata

noc231073 wrote: »

And another thing I tought the Cat 1 guys had their own race why are they being listed in the overall placing along with the rest of us ..

Why not list everyone? Its easy to calculate points still and it is afterall the same race

noc231073

There's really no excuse ...!!!
A couple of formulas on an excel sheet would have it done in a few minutes

They seem to make a balls of everything they try and change ...

peter kern

noc231073 wrote: »

There's really no excuse ...!!!
A couple of formulas on an excel sheet would have it done in a few minutes

They seem to make a balls of everything they try and change ...

how did they reply to your offer to help?

Podge83

peter kern wrote: »

how did they reply to your offer to help?

Its easy to look at the computer screen and give out on here, true - but surely a results service for a race series that people are paying good money is not too much to ask.

In fairness, the results aren't rocket science to work out.

Maybe it is time to get these issues on the agenda, go to the AGM when it comes around and make a contribution directly and make voices heard rather than giving out on here about it which certainly wont improve things.!!

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

Its easy to look at the computer screen and give out on here, true - but surely a results service for a race series that people are paying good money is not too much to ask.

In fairness, the results aren't rocket science to work out.

Maybe it is time to get these issues on the agenda, go to the AGM when it comes around and make a contribution directly and make voices heard rather than giving out on here about it which certainly wont improve things.!!

My feelings on the National Series are well known.

However in a former life I was race secretary for TI and we had the Premier League. Less complicated scoring and for less people (not everyone was a winner - no Eunice Kennedy influence back then). By day I am a software engineer. I wrote a program to do the scoring. It was complicated enough and time consuming to write and run. Alot of the issues came down to bad data and correct the pure garbage that you were given by the timing people.

Are they rocket science - no.
Are they alot more complicated that you think - yes.

Bambaata

Podge83 wrote: »

Maybe it is time to get these issues on the agenda, go to the AGM when it comes around and make a contribution directly and make voices heard rather than giving out on here about it which certainly wont improve things.!!

Id strongly suggest this. I went this year and you would certainly get good opportunity to voice something.

peter kern

I am not disagreeing with you .
And it is fair to say there is no need to establish a duathlon nat series if it can't be admistrated .
Anyway Iam as much interested in nat series than tunny,at the same time historically things were shaken up a lot late august and September so even if you are interested in nat series it would say very little ( the comperasion with the premiership dosnt work really)

Podge83 wrote: »

Its easy to look at the computer screen and give out on here, true - but surely a results service for a race series that people are paying good money is not too much to ask.

In fairness, the results aren't rocket science to work out.

Maybe it is time to get these issues on the agenda, go to the AGM when it comes around and make a contribution directly and make voices heard rather than giving out on here about it which certainly wont improve things.!!

noc231073

peter kern wrote: »

how did they reply to your offer to help?

I help alright for the correct fee ... !!!
But I doubt they would pay it as I am sure their already paying someone to do this already

At the end of the day we all pay membership and race fees the least they could do is gives up the results ..

tunney

noc231073 wrote: »

I help alright for the correct fee ... !!!
But I doubt they would pay it as I am sure their already paying someone to do this already

At the end of the day we all pay membership and race fees the least they could do is gives up the results ..

LOL.

Where to start.

rooneyjm

peter kern wrote: »

I am not disagreeing with you .
And it is fair to say there is no need to establish a duathlon nat series if it can't be admistrated .
Anyway Iam as much interested in nat series than tunny,at the same time historically things were shaken up a lot late august and September so even if you are interested in nat series it would say very little ( the comperasion with the premiership work really)

Maybe not the best example but part of the "fun/enjoyment" is logging on, seeing your result and points, seeing where you are at in your age group, checking against others you know etc etc. If you cant do that then it looses something for me. Its half arsed and if TI weren't going to put the proper admin behind it then they should have just left it alone.

If your taking it a bit more serious then you may a have a race selection strategy. How do you do that when your guessing what others points are? Its sloppy and if TI don't take it serious then why would anyone else?

Podge83

This is a strange debate. No one really defending TI but belittling the whole series instead as some sort of a shadow of a former glorious competition. Surely this says it all!!!.

Its time to take off the rose tinted glasses and realise that this should be a great period for Triathlon in this country with record numbers taking part - any other sporting organisation would be making hay instead of turning up at big races like HOTW etc with TI leading lights giving sound-bites about the great races when they themselves are not organising them but the clubs etc. TI themselves have become the bandwagoners on their own bandwagon through sponsorship etc.

TI do coordinate, produce the schedule, provide levels of insurance, provide the officials etc..... and are supposed to produce the results - before someone jumps in defending them I know that they do more but one of the main products of any series or league is the results FFS.

On this and other threads people give out about rule enforcement regarding drafting, shortened swims etc - TI's responsibility also.

Whatever the argument, if you cant administer your own system get someone who can!!

There obviously is a good intent in the organisation and people and organisations make mistakes - that's ok, but learn from them. TI's results production seems to be getting worse. The one defence is the Timing Company data which in fairness is usually poor on first submission. However, that's no defence for the failures on producing results and tables - timing companies usually repair the data within a few days - and anyway, wait for the results to be final - that's easy.

The Duathlon series results this year and last were a shambles - delivered very late (only delivered last year as the annual awards night was looming!!!! - they could produce them then - why not six months earlier when they had the data - it was the same in late October as it was in April). This years first attempt at a duathlon national series table was less than pathetic (and was very late). Maybe the duathlon national series is a bit of a joke - mainly because of the way its administered.

Talking to most who compete eye the National Series as a target for the year and like to see where they stand. Results and tables shouldn't be the gift that they have become from TI when received, they should be there on the website within a reasonable amount of time. More people competing means more money for TI and therefore the possibility of more resources to produce data. Its simply not good enough that you go to the website and see "currently there are no results available" at this stage of the season.

The insinuation above that Triathlon is now a soft sport and run as some sort of charity giving a bit of timber with a sticker on it to all who compete is an insult to those who take their racing seriously. What's wrong with giving competitors a target??? OK there maybe some categories in the Duathlon National Series where there's one for everyone in the audience who does the number of races but is that a result of the product or a product of the (poor) result(s)???

bryangiggsy

Podge83 wrote: »

This is a strange debate. No one really defending TI but belittling the whole series instead as some sort of a shadow of a former glorious competition. Surely this says it all!!!.

Its time to take off the rose tinted glasses and realise that this should be a great period for Triathlon in this country with record numbers taking part - any other sporting organisation would be making hay instead of turning up at big races like HOTW etc with TI leading lights giving sound-bites about the great races when they themselves are not organising them but the clubs etc. TI themselves have become the bandwagoners on their own bandwagon through sponsorship etc.

TI do coordinate, produce the schedule, provide levels of insurance, provide the officials etc..... and are supposed to produce the results - before someone jumps in defending them I know that they do more but one of the main products of any series or league is the results FFS.

On this and other threads people give out about rule enforcement regarding drafting, shortened swims etc - TI's responsibility also.

Whatever the argument, if you cant administer your own system get someone who can!!

There obviously is a good intent in the organisation and people and organisations make mistakes - that's ok, but learn from them. TI's results production seems to be getting worse. The one defence is the Timing Company data which in fairness is usually poor on first submission. However, that's no defence for the failures on producing results and tables - timing companies usually repair the data within a few days - and anyway, wait for the results to be final - that's easy.

The Duathlon series results this year and last were a shambles - delivered very late (only delivered last year as the annual awards night was looming!!!! - they could produce them then - why not six months earlier when they had the data - it was the same in late October as it was in April). This years first attempt at a duathlon national series table was less than pathetic (and was very late). Maybe the duathlon national series is a bit of a joke - mainly because of the way its administered.

Talking to most who compete eye the National Series as a target for the year and like to see where they stand. Results and tables shouldn't be the gift that they have become from TI when received, they should be there on the website within a reasonable amount of time. More people competing means more money for TI and therefore the possibility of more resources to produce data. Its simply not good enough that you go to the website and see "currently there are no results available" at this stage of the season.

The insinuation above that Triathlon is now a soft sport and run as some sort of charity giving a bit of timber with a sticker on it to all who compete is an insult to those who take their racing seriously. What's wrong with giving competitors a target??? OK there maybe some categories in the Duathlon National Series where there's one for everyone in the audience who does the number of races but is that a result of the product or a product of the (poor) result(s)???

How can you take your racing seriously if you are basing your results on a completely flawed competition? The fact that people can pick and choose races based on field quality renders the competition useless for the age grouper.
Hopefully next year TI will make it a super series for all age groupers with only 6 races counting towards points. Then you have a fair barometer to guage your progress. I wouldnt hold my breath though.

Podge83

bryangiggsy wrote: »

How can you take your racing seriously if you are basing your results on a completely flawed competition? The fact that people can pick and choose races based on field quality renders the competition useless for the age grouper.
Hopefully next year TI will make it a super series for all age groupers with only 6 races counting towards points. Then you have a fair barometer to guage your progress. I wouldnt hold my breath though.

All what you say may be true, but once they put up the series, the least they can do is support it with the results!!!

bryangiggsy

Podge83 wrote: »

All what you say may be true, but once they put up the series, the least they can do is support it with the results!!!

Totally agree. Have said it for yrs. We are their bread and butter yet year on year this always happens. I'll be going to the agm this year. I hope as many boardsies will too.

Podge83

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Totally agree. Have said it for yrs. We are their bread and butter yet year on year this always happens. I'll be going to the agm this year. I hope as many boardsies will too.

I suppose the upshot of the poor results debate on here so far is that there are bigger problems to worry about with the series rather than the results.

The sh1te results service is just another on the list.

tunney

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Totally agree. Have said it for yrs. We are their bread and butter yet year on year this always happens. I'll be going to the agm this year. I hope as many boardsies will too.

No you won't. Everyone will forget until next year at it always is

rooneyjm

Jesus, they wont have any results for 2015 but want 2016 applications.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=2387

boysinblack

Probably an unpopular opinion but seems like to me anyways that TI are only interested in Junior racers development and everything else is a long way secondary...

Tom__jnr2

boysinblack wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion but seems like to me anyways that TI are only interested in Junior racers development and everything else is a long way secondary...

So they should but I cannot see it. Unless there something I am missing.
The way they handled the winner situation in 2014 is still beyond me.

peter kern

rooneyjm wrote: »

Maybe not the best example but part of the "fun/enjoyment" is logging on, seeing your result and points, seeing where you are at in your age group, checking against others you know etc etc. If you cant do that then it looses something for me. Its half arsed and if TI weren't going to put the proper admin behind it then they should have just left it alone.

If your taking it a bit more serious then you may a have a race selection strategy. How do you do that when your guessing what others points are? Its sloppy and if TI don't take it serious then why would anyone else?

very good post and it dosnt come across as whinning , this is well articulated and constructive feedback.

peter kern

boysinblack wrote: »

Probably an unpopular opinion but seems like to me anyways that TI are only interested in Junior racers development and everything else is a long way secondary...

this is where you potentially can get the big funds.
when kate allan won gold for austria they got prob 10 times as much form the sport council than membership fees for the next 4 years.the same would be true for switzerland and portugal during the days of vanessa ferandez.
ps i forgot kanada with simon whitefield. and new zealand too.

and ps too add to this in Itu ( Ti is part of this) like in most sport the focus needs to be on perfomance
if you want participation focus you have to go to Ironman as their are participation focused like colour runs.

and i guess this is the biggest problem for TI that in triathlon everybody thinks they are the most important a la like messi in soccer...
Personally in my mind TI hits a solid mix of participation and performace focus.
in soccer if you dont play in the first team even in the lowest league you stand back behind the guys in the first team and i think most people accept that it is aobut perofrmace in soccer, which is a different to age group triathlon.

cart man

peter kern wrote: »

in soccer if you dont play in the first team even in the lowest league you stand back behind the guys in the first team and i think most people accept that it is aobut perofrmace in soccer, which is a different to age group triathlon.

Even in the mostly lowly of Sunday Soccer leagues there is a league table. The players may not be performing like Messi but at least they can compare to their peers.

peter kern

cart man wrote: »

Even in the mostly lowly of Sunday Soccer leagues there is a league table.

usually admistarted by volunteers not by paid stuff in the lower leagues.
but those are also tables that make sense as people play against a similar level and have to play at fixed dates, and cant pick easy fields etc etc
if there was a north and south leinster league than a leinster league etc and if you do well you progress to a national series than it might make sense but a nat sereis can not work at lower levels ( it works in no country in the usa every body laughs at nat sereis ;-)

I would be impressed if anybody could show me a country where the age group nat series is really important in tri .

the only 2 countries that have manged it are france and germany where the have a first and 2nd divison ( in teams )
but thats a fairly high level and the first league is pro level ( apart from some smaller teams) .


anyway as you see I do agree roonjyms post. the fact that i could not care less aobut the nat series does not mean i do not agree the way roonjyms expresses it. on the contrary I think this would be a great chance to revive the nat sereis for those that care aobut it .

rooneyjm

peter kern wrote: »

this is where you potentially can get the big funds.

If TI think this way then I think its very short sighted. Whilst I don't think any Age Grouper would think they are at the top of the performance tree, they are at the top of the purchasing power tree that drive the industry. We have the disposable income to buy the bikes, wetsuits, running shoes the list goes on and on. Its all part of the loop.

All TI have to do is give us the illusion we are racing and we are brilliant triathletes for 5 minutes. Surely its not that hard.

gerfmurphy

I note that the TI website does not have Camlough or Athy sprint results, both are NS races. so maybe the issue is with the timing company.

MojoMaker

rooneyjm wrote: »

If TI think this way then I think its very short sighted. Whilst I don't think any Age Grouper would think they are at the top of the performance tree, they are at the top of the purchasing power tree that drive the industry. We have the disposable income to buy the bikes, wetsuits, running shoes the list goes on and on. Its all part of the loop.

As a matter of interest how much does TI gain from all this €€€ lavished on bikes, suits, shoes, supplements etc? Are you sure you're not confusing it with what is good for the sporting goods industry?

Seems to me that there are more and more outlets for competing in triathlon/multi-sport outside of ITU/TI than ever before.

rooneyjm

Not a penny directly (I hope). For example, Zone3 are now in partnership with TI. Would that sponsorship be possible without thousands of wetsuits being sold to 30 somethings. Where is the sponsorship money going? Well it looks like its going into development of young talent with the intention of getting one of them to the big time. Thats great it makes sense but what if all those age groupers got pee'ed of with TI and membership dropped. People moved to something else and the sales dry up. Then Zone3 pull out and TI loose sponsorship, not to mention membership. Then TI cant support the young talent and they go to another sport.

Keep the membership growing = more sponsorship = more money to develop talent. And that starts with putting up a few results now and again to the plebs happy.

boysinblack

rooneyjm wrote: »

Not a penny directly (I hope). For example, Zone3 are now in partnership with TI. Would that sponsorship be possible without thousands of wetsuits being sold to 30 somethings. Where is the sponsorship money going? Well it looks like its going into development of young talent with the intention of getting one of them to the big time. Thats great it makes sense but what if all those age groupers got pee'ed of with TI and membership dropped. People moved to something else and the sales dry up. Then Zone3 pull out and TI loose sponsorship, not to mention membership. Then TI cant support the young talent and they go to another sport.

Keep the membership growing = more sponsorship = more money to develop talent. And that starts with putting up a few results now and again to the plebs happy.

Very good point. Once thing that really annoyed me recently on the Triathlon website was the write up they had of the Midterns winning the non ti event the lee swim. Yet there own triathlon events that happened that week have gone without a write up ...

EC1000

boysinblack wrote: »

Very good point. Once thing that really annoyed me recently on the Triathlon website was the write up they had of the Midterns winning the non ti event the lee swim. Yet there own triathlon events that happened that week have gone without a write up ...

This is going completely off topic but TI do not do write ups. I think (hope) that they have better things to be doing. It is up to the event organiser to get someone to write up a race report and send it in to TI (who in my experience are only too happy to publish immediately). When you refer to the TI events that went without a write up - who exactly do you think should be responsible for this? Ask the race organiser what happened to the report. Unfortunately, triathlon is not like other mainstream sports where people are paid to do write ups! I'm not sure why but this sort of nonsense bugs me

sconhome

rooneyjm wrote: »

Not a penny directly (I hope). For example, Zone3 are now in partnership with TI. Would that sponsorship be possible without thousands of wetsuits being sold to 30 somethings. Where is the sponsorship money going? Well it looks like its going into development of young talent with the intention of getting one of them to the big time. Thats great it makes sense but what if all those age groupers got pee'ed of with TI and membership dropped. People moved to something else and the sales dry up. Then Zone3 pull out and TI loose sponsorship, not to mention membership. Then TI cant support the young talent and they go to another sport.

Keep the membership growing = more sponsorship = more money to develop talent. And that starts with putting up a few results now and again to the plebs happy.

I think you are overestimating the income from sponsorship and the potential return to the sponsors.

Any development money is primarily coming from sports council grants.

toomuchdetail

Junior and senior guys on the TI squads pay for their own race entry,travel,coaching etc with guidance from TI in some areas so the money is certainly not been spent on development apart from a few token coaching days , also if you look at their accounts from last year sponsorship accounts for very little revenue , race entry (ODL) and fees/membership is the main revenue hence in my opinion the push for larger races wiht more ODL revenue.

BTH

AKW wrote: »

I think you are overestimating the income from sponsorship and the potential return to the sponsors.

Any development money is primarily coming from sports council grants.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Signed%20Statutory%20Accounts%202013.pdf

8% of income from Sponsorship. Minor in the scheme of things.

Half the money coming from Grants, its easy to see why the priority lies there.

Spot the accountant

sconhome

AKW wrote: »

I think you are overestimating the income from sponsorship and the potential return to the sponsors.

Any development money is primarily coming from sports council grants.

BTH wrote: »

http://www.triathlonireland.com/assets/files/Signed%20Statutory%20Accounts%202013.pdf

8% of income from Sponsorship. Minor in the scheme of things.

Half the money coming from Grants, its easy to see why the priority lies there.

Spot the accountant

Amazing how gut instinct can be backed up by an accountant

sconhome

Actually, thinking about this the money is the way to effect change.

Obviously going to the AGM and voicing your opinion can do so much but imagine the power of a lobby group or online petition to the Minister responsible for the allocation of sports council grants (is there a minister in charge?) saying that members interests are not being properly represented or respected by their governing body.

Do you reckon that would get the attention and light a fire under the organisation to get their finger out and get results up?

hamstervision

TI just posted a dump of results with an apology + explanation. They say only Derry is missing but I'm certain my total is wrong.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=2395

rooneyjm

They must have heard me.

Podge83

hamstervision wrote: »

TI just posted a dump of results with an apology + explanation. They say only Derry is missing but I'm certain my total is wrong.

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=2395

Brilliant. Now we all know where we stand. Super service, thanks TI!

Now, Stop Whining and Whinging!!

sconhome

AKW wrote: »

Actually, thinking about this the money is the way to effect change...

hamstervision wrote: »

TI just posted a dump of results with an apology + explanation...

http://www.triathlonireland.com/index.php?id=107&nid=2395

noc231073

Podge83 wrote: »

Brilliant. Now we all know where we stand. Super service, thanks TI!

Now, Stop Whining and Whinging!!

I hope your taking the piss .....!!!!
Because TI are ...

Exactly dumped is the word ..

Where do you start with that mess ...

Podge83

noc231073 wrote: »

I hope your taking the piss .....!!!!
Because TI are ...

Exactly dumped is the word ..

Where do you start with that mess ...

No. They've made an effort (TI) and they're doing their best. Fair play!

noc231073

Podge83 wrote: »

No. They've made an effort (TI) and they're doing their best. Fair play!

I don't think you can really call that a fair effort ..
It looks like someone was given the job on Thursday to get any kind of results out by Friday just to keep em happy ..
I have complete 4 rounds of the national series but haven't done my Olympic which is will be close to the end of august so I'll have to wait possibly till late September before I get any indication of results ..

If that's not a joke I don't know what to say .. .. FFS...

Podge83

noc231073 wrote: »

I don't think you can really call that a fair effort ..
It looks like someone was given the job on Thursday to get any kind of results out by Friday just to keep em happy ..
I have complete 4 rounds of the national series but haven't done my Olympic which is will be close to the end of august so I'll have to wait possibly till late September before I get any indication of results ..

If that's not a joke I don't know what to say .. .. FFS...

Sorry noc, I was actually taking the pi55 but couldn't resist a little wind up.

noc231073

Podge83 wrote: »

Sorry noc, I was actually taking the pi55 but couldn't resist a little wind up.

Lol....
Ok got me ...

sporteamon3

Updated NS Points on TI website but if my points are anything to go by it's prob full of errors and omissions! No sign of the fancy new system being worked on by their web developers! Will it be up and running by season's end?!

68 lost souls

sporteamon3 wrote: »

Updated NS Points on TI website but if my points are anything to go by it's prob full of errors and omissions! No sign of the fancy new system being worked on by their web developers! Will it be up and running by season's end?!

Still only up until July 5th? Looking forward to finally see in myself on the list.

viperlogic

Could this be the all new and amazing results site?....

http://results.triathlonireland.com/

hamstervision

viperlogic wrote: »

Could this be the all new and amazing results site?....

http://results.triathlonireland.com/

Nice one - guessing the design is temporary but the results seem to be there. I only really care about the data at this point.