Should all city bus services in Ireland go cashless?

monument

Once there's a roll-out of Leap card to cities, should Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann go cashless? If not soon, maybe have a year lead-in time?

The advantages of cashless is mainly that it speeds up boarding times at bus stops and reduces delays. Costs are also reduced because money does not have to be handled (ie taken off buses etc).

It's not just London or the likes of the Netherlands which has gone cashless, even Kenyan bus drivers got in on it, for their own reasons: http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0527/619973-kenya-bus/

V_Moth

Yes, but only if the current fare system is replaced by a zone based system.

Patser

Yes but allow for payzone outlets to sell tickets to the very infrequent traveller caught out with cash only. Need a 1 off ticket, run into a newsagent, get something with a barcode on it that a scanner reads.

Stevek101

Just use your bank card, even more convenient than running to the shop.

OleRodrigo

We shouldn't have to pay for public transport at all.

Mahogany

OleRodrigo wrote: »

We shouldn't have to pay for public transport at all.

How else would it be funded?

Kalman

OleRodrigo wrote: »

We shouldn't have to pay for public transport at all.

Who should pay?

n97 mini

V_Moth wrote: »

Yes, but only if the current fare system is replaced by a zone based system.

I'd go one further. For Dublin a flat fare of €2, capped at €5. London/Oyster is £1.50, capped at £4.40 but is substantially bigger.

Sheldons Brain

Patser wrote: »

Yes but allow for payzone outlets to sell tickets to the very infrequent traveller caught out with cash only. Need a 1 off ticket, run into a newsagent, get something with a barcode on it that a scanner reads.

Why not have machines at bus stops to do this. Why not program all parking meters to print this barcode on receipt of your €2.50 or whatever, these already exist in many places.

Stephen15

Yes of course I don't even need to say why

efb

Not yet, maybe make the contactless bank cards work with the system like it does in London

dfx-

Not until there is a flat fare.

Introducing a flat fare and going cashless would obliterate the evil 'dwell time' in an instant and you could board by either set of doors. Having to interact with the driver for different fares on a Leap Card makes it pointless introducing cashless now.

Cookie_Monster

If they can start processing payment via normal debit card or mobile phones yes, otherwise no

LXFlyer

In time yes, but not until contactless banking has been rolled out fully by all of the banks (which is some way off) and mobile phone technology has been developed that allows payments to be made.

There needs to be sufficient alternative means of payment - that doesn't exist at the moment.

At the same time the simplification of the fare structure would need to be complete.

LXFlyer

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Why not have machines at bus stops to do this. Why not program all parking meters to print this barcode on receipt of your €2.50 or whatever, these already exist in many places.

There are 7,500 bus stops in Dublin alone - let's be realistic!

cgcsb

In Dublin, yes. Sligo town services? no

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

In Dublin, yes. Sligo town services? no

Sligo isn't a city

Mrs OBumble

monument wrote: »

The advantages of cashless is mainly that it speeds up boarding times at bus stops and reduces delays.

Except it doesn't.

I cannot speak for Dublin Buses with their two validators. But in Galway, the buses only have one, and it takes noticeably longer for the driver to deduct a fare from a Leap card than it does for them to take a cash fare. (Yes, I've stood in the queue often enough to notice.)

And that's at the moment with a flat fare, when an adult handing over a Leap card almost always wants a cash fare. Once they finally get around to putting TaxSaver onto Leap, meaning that the driver has to check what should actually be deducted, then it will be even slower.

monument

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Except it doesn't.

I cannot speak for Dublin Buses with their two validators. But in Galway, the buses only have one, and it takes noticeably longer for the driver to deduct a fare from a Leap card than it does for them to take a cash fare. (Yes, I've stood in the queue often enough to notice.)

And that's at the moment with a flat fare, when an adult handing over a Leap card almost always wants a cash fare. Once they finally get around to putting TaxSaver onto Leap, meaning that the driver has to check what should actually be deducted, then it will be even slower.

There should be little to no driver interaction -- it's a key part to going cashless.

Vic_08

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Except it doesn't.

I cannot speak for Dublin Buses with their two validators. But in Galway, the buses only have one, and it takes noticeably longer for the driver to deduct a fare from a Leap card than it does for them to take a cash fare. (Yes, I've stood in the queue often enough to notice.)

And that's at the moment with a flat fare, when an adult handing over a Leap card almost always wants a cash fare. Once they finally get around to putting TaxSaver onto Leap, meaning that the driver has to check what should actually be deducted, then it will be even slower.

That is down to a poor implementation on inadequate and slow ticket machines that are not up to the job.

The number of button presses necessary to deal with leap transactions on BE machines is ridiculous and thanks to the dreadful OS of the machines the driver cannot just tap out a familiar sequence, each press needs to be followed by a pause as the machine updates the screen.

Validating annual, monthly, weekly or day passes is quicker, if a valid ticket is present they should validate within 1/2 second once placed on the reader with no driver input required.

The difficulty occurs because the quickest way to issue a leap fare (single or day/week pass) is to press the leap button before the card is presented whereas pressing the button before a leap card with a valid pass on it stops the automatic validation and requires further button presses to validate.

As is standard with BE the drivers were never consulted or given a chance to provide feedback on the operation of the systems before they were introduced and any complaints made subsequently are either ignored or responded to by a "it's too late to change it now".

The introduction of these late 90's vintage TGX ticket machines in BE has been an utter farce; it has taken years, they are worse than the elderly but efficient Wayfarer 3 machines for cash transactions, struggle badly with the complex fare structures on many BE routes, take an age to process NFC cards, have slow printers that regularly jam, have a non-standard numeric keypad and on top of that some fool decided that tickets needed to be bilingual so a simple single ticket is abut 8 inches long that take too long to issue.

n97 mini

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Except it doesn't.

I cannot speak for Dublin Buses with their two validators. But in Galway, the buses only have one, and it takes noticeably longer for the driver to deduct a fare from a Leap card than it does for them to take a cash fare.

In London they've only one and a flat fare, but the driver doesn't have to do anything. It's quite quick, but I always wondered why they didn't put a second one on the right.

That craic in Galway sounds barmy.

redmicky

Amazes me, the same people who have conspiracy theories about google and Facebook tracking their lives are in favour of a cashless society, the powers that be would know everything about you if you only used credit card/Leap like cards.
The would know how much you drink/smoke what food you buy, insurance will go sky high.
Wont be able to pay cash for someone to cut your grass, do a nixer without having to pay tax.
If we go cashless the banks will have us all by the balls, they could ban your card from buying non essential items if you where behind on the mortgage.
Government approved levels of drink consumption, sorry your card is rejected as you have already bought 3 pints of beer today.
That s the future of a cashless society.
Cash is king and forever shall be.

Stephen15

redmicky wrote: »

Cash is king and forever shall be.

Even in Germany and Italy where cash is king buses are cashless.

n97 mini

redmicky wrote: »

Cash is king and forever shall be.

Cash, and tinfoil hats.

redmicky

n97 mini wrote: »

Cash, and tinfoil hats.

i believe in some scandinavian countries you need a ID to buy alcohol, you are only allowed to buy so much each week, if you go over the government approved limit you are not allow to purchase anymore.

monument

redmicky wrote: »

i believe in some scandinavian countries you need a ID to buy alcohol, you are only allowed to buy so much each week, if you go over the government approved limit you are not allow to purchase anymore.

Keep on-topic.

- moderator

foggy_lad

Cashless definitely on Dublin Bus but most Bus Éireann routes are not suitable for cashless because many people are still not internet savvy enough to buy their tickets online, rural banks and shops are closing down so less and less rural stops will have places to load a leap card or to put cash onto your contactless card.

On Bus Éireann there are quite a few stops where I would have ticket only on buses, any bus station where a ticket machine is working and also at all colleges and other educational institutions.

I would also do away with those blasted MAC numbers on Bus Éireann as they delay more buses as drivers have to try to read the phone or printout and input that into their useless ticket machines. Bring them back when There is a barcode printed with the code which can be read by a scanner on the bus.


(Poll options could have Dublin Bus only or Bus Eireann only.)

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

Cashless definitely on Dublin Bus but most Bus Éireann routes are not suitable for cashless because many people are still not internet savvy enough to buy their tickets online, rural banks and shops are closing down so less and less rural stops will have places to load a leap card or to put cash onto your contactless card.

On Bus Éireann there are quite a few stops where I would have ticket only on buses, any bus station where a ticket machine is working and also at all colleges and other educational institutions.

I would also do away with those blasted MAC numbers on Bus Éireann as they delay more buses as drivers have to try to read the phone or printout and input that into their useless ticket machines. Bring them back when There is a barcode printed with the code which can be read by a scanner on the bus.


(Poll options could have Dublin Bus only or Bus Eireann only.)

The poll deals with urban city services only, not intercity services and not regional commuter services into Dublin etc.

foggy_lad

monument wrote: »

The poll deals with urban city services only, not intercity services and not regional commuter services into Dublin etc.

How did I miss that

then cashless is the way to go as long as ticket machines on both Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus are updated as the current machines are not really fit for purpose.

macroman

The reason I heard London went cashless was because cash fare intake was so low it was costing more to deal with the cash than what was being taken in - it was an easy decision for them to make as everyone in London is on Oyster, they introduced the contactless payment card function, NFC on mobiles for some banks work on the buses and they have a "get you home" contingency feature on the Oyster - something I'm sure anyone who has run out of credit on their Leap would welcome!

Over here cash intake is still high so until Leap is further incentivised and widely adopted, more contactless bank cards are issued and the entire fare structure and ticketing equipment is revised I can't see our buses going cashless anytime soon.

Mrs OBumble

monument wrote: »

The poll deals with urban city services only, not intercity services and not regional commuter services into Dublin etc.

And when urban city services are operated entirely by urban city buses, it wll be valid.

But out here beyond the pale, coaches get used for city services sometimes.

Cashless won't be an option until the whole fleet can deal with it. And even then, I think literacy here is probably too low to make it viable.

dubscottie

Have to keep the cash option. I use the bus in Dublin 3-4 times a month at most. €2.55 please, get ticket, go to seat.

Have seen people with Leap standing there for ages, exact destination.

And don't get me started on how many times I have been stuck behind someone in the Spar topping up a Leap card..

Option 1 - Take coins out pocket, get ticket, go to seat. (no need to worry about right change as self-service yoke in Tesco gave you tons the night before)

Option 2- Go to spar, take Leap out wallet/purse, Top up Leap, Put card back in wallet/purse, go to bus stop, Take card out again, put card on reader and tell bus driver where you are going, wait, wait a bit longer, go to seat.. And the constant checking of your balance.. Ok if you use the bus daily you might only top up once a week or month.

Leap was supposed to make it easier for the bus user. To me a cashless Dublin Bus sounds like a nightmare.

dancingchicken

I always prefer to use cash. I only use my card to purchase stuff online.

Stephen15

dubscottie wrote: »

Have to keep the cash option. I use the bus in Dublin 3-4 times a month at most. €2.55 please, get ticket, go to seat.

Have seen people with Leap standing there for ages, exact destination.

And don't get me started on how many times I have been stuck behind someone in the Spar topping up a Leap card..

Option 1 - Take coins out pocket, get ticket, go to seat. (no need to worry about right change as self-service yoke in Tesco gave you tons the night before)

Option 2- Go to spar, take Leap out wallet/purse, Top up Leap, Put card back in wallet/purse, go to bus stop, Take card out again, put card on reader and tell bus driver where you are going, wait, wait a bit longer, go to seat.. And the constant checking of your balance.. Ok if you use the bus daily you might only top up once a week or month.

All well and good. Have you seen the leap reader on the right hand side which takes about 2 seconds to use as its a flat fare. Do you use the luas or the train much the leap card is a must for that. By the time you buy a ticket at the vending machine you've missed it. Also do you realise you might save money by using the leap carx

Stephen15

redmicky wrote: »

Amazes me, the same people who have conspiracy theories about google and Facebook tracking their lives are in favour of a cashless society, the powers that be would know everything about you if you only used credit card/Leap like cards.
The would know how much you drink/smoke what food you buy, insurance will go sky high.
Wont be able to pay cash for someone to cut your grass, do a nixer without having to pay tax.
If we go cashless the banks will have us all by the balls, they could ban your card from buying non essential items if you where behind on the mortgage.
Government approved levels of drink consumption, sorry your card is rejected as you have already bought 3 pints of beer today.
That s the future of a cashless society.
Cash is king and forever shall be.

The leap isin't 100% cashless as you still go to the shop and put money on it.

cython

Stephen15 wrote: »

All well and good. Have you seen the leap reader on the right hand side which takes about 2 seconds to use as its a flat fare. Do you use the luas or the train much the leap card is a must for that. By the time you buy a ticket at the vending machine you've missed it. Also do you realise you might save money by using the leap carx

And as far as I recall, said flat fare is generally to the end of the line (seeing as tag-on/tag-off is apparently too hard to fathom for DB!) and thus more expensive for some passengers. As an infrequent bus user I still have a leap card, but unless it's a nightlink I'll go to the driver as there's too much chance of the flat fare overcharging me.

Stephen15

cython wrote: »

And as far as I recall, said flat fare is generally to the end of the line (seeing as tag-on/tag-off is apparently too hard to fathom for DB!) and thus more expensive for some passengers. As an infrequent bus user I still have a leap card, but unless it's a nightlink I'll go to the driver as there's too much chance of the flat fare overcharging me.

No the leap reader will charge you if you're going over 13 stages which is most journeys for shorter distances can go up to the driver

Rawr

Cashless I've always felt is the better option.

It feels like that only way around both dwell-times caused by the use of cash and lengthily Leap transactions, is to simplify the whole system with zones and flat fares in those zones.

There should be more of a mind-set of
"How many Zone 1 journeys have I got left on my card?"
instead of "How much of my digital wallet needs to be charged to get from Stage 25 to Stage 46?" With flat zone fares there should then be little need to interact with a driver in order to get the correct fare deducted from a Leap card.

In addition, a proper set of integrated tickets is needed. I'm not referring to discounted transfer tickets between modes, but a proper Zone Ticket that covers all connected modes in that zone for the validity of that ticket (90 minutes, a day / week / month / year etc...).

I think if you got simplified tickets like that onto the Leap Cards, which cover you for Bus/Luas/Train/Metro etc... then I think it would be easier to sell the system to more people, with the added benefit reduced dwell times (since everyone is just validating their Leap Card while boarding...nothing more than that)

riffmongous

Stephen15 wrote: »

Even in Germany and Italy where cash is king buses are cashless.

Buses aren't cashless in Germany, at least not where I am (Stuttgart). I'd say less than one in ten people getting on actually pay in cash but it's still an option, I've done it a few times when the stop didnt have a ticket machine as I dont have any sort of week/month ticket

Alun

riffmongous wrote: »

Buses aren't cashless in Germany, at least not where I am (Stuttgart).

Same in Darmstadt, where I visit sometimes. You can buy tickets in advance, including at ticket machines, but buying from the driver is still an option, albeit not a heavily used one.

Rawr

Alun wrote: »

Same in Darmstadt, where I visit sometimes. You can buy tickets in advance, including at ticket machines, but buying from the driver is still an option, albeit not a heavily used one.

Same here in Oslo. However you are limited to purchasing Single-Journey tickets from the driver, and you are penalized with a higher price for doing so. Cheaper fares are given if you purchase by other means.

n97 mini

Stephen15 wrote: »

The leap isin't 100% cashless as you still go to the shop and put money on it.

Or train station or Luas stop, all of which accept credit and debit cards.

cython

Stephen15 wrote: »

No the leap reader will charge you if you're going over 13 stages which is most journeys for shorter distances can go up to the driver

Why lead with the "no" there? It is still, as I said, a flat fare to the end of the line, so the point still stands that there is a risk of being overcharged by using the validator. Admittedly it seems that more journeys come in within the flat fare since the last time I checked after the last restructure of fares (I did say I'm an infrequent user), but IMHO tag on/off would still be an improvement, as it would mean that all passengers using leap could avoid interaction with the driver if required. Of course a flat fare would have the same effect (and I would welcome it either), and not require the fitting of additional validators, but the simple fact is that there are still plenty of commonplace journeys for which the validator is unsuitable (e.g. UCD into parts of the city centre).

Stevek101

Stephen15 wrote: »

The leap isin't 100% cashless as you still go to the shop and put money on it.

Auto top up? :rolleyes:

GTE

In the cashless systems, how are tourists catered for?

markpb

dubscottie wrote: »

And don't get me started on how many times I have been stuck behind someone in the Spar topping up a Leap card..

I'm sorry, what. Don't get you started on the amount of times you were stuck behind someone in Spar buying a product that they sell!!? Oh the humanity.

bk

We should certainly be aiming to go cashless, but a lot needs to happen before we can even think about that. Frankly Leap just isn't good enough at the moment and needs to improve vastly first. The following needs to happen first:

- replace all DB and BE crappy slow ticket machines with a new, powerful model
- allow for online top-ups and tickets purchased online to be applied on the bus (no need to go to soar!)
- support paying with contact less credit and debit cards
- support paying with smartphones and smart watches (apple pay, etc.)
- put Luas style ticket machines at a few key tourist locations (e.g. Airports, Ferry Ports, O'Connell St, Westmoreland St, etc.
- move either to a flat fare or tag-on/tag-off for zero driver interaction

The last point is by far the most important. It is key to making leap work properly. The problem with leap at the moment is that it is slower then paying cash!!!

Once all of the above is done, relaunch leap with a big advertising campaign to get as many people as possible to move to it.

1 year after that, introduce a high cash flat fare, should drive most people to one of the cashless options.

1 year after that, you should have very few cash fares left and then it should be easily to remove cash.

I'd guess we are talking at least 5 years from this.

LXFlyer

bbk wrote: »

In the cashless systems, how are tourists catered for?

Either buy a normal leap card or a visitor leap card.

Much the same way visitors to London who want to use the bus need to get an Oyster card.

GTE

lxflyer wrote: »

Either buy a normal leap card or a visitor leap card.

Much the same way visitors to London who want to use the bus need to get an Oyster card.

What is the tourist reaction to that and if good, would it be likely that the DB implementation would be a positive one?

If all those are yes, then I would have no issue with cashless being offered everywhere but I would wonder about the infrequent users and tourists who would rarely use the bus.

macroman

I see that most of the savvier tourists are buying the 3 day freedom passes at the airport, as I mostly encounter the odd few who seem to decide last minute to catch the bus - our UK visitors seem to be astonished we don't take notes or give change!

There is great marketing for Leap in the airport but none in the city, I'd reckon most tourists intending on using the buses would opt for the freedom pass if they knew of it and if it was readily available - release it to more agents, hotels and install some machines in the city like the ones in the airport.

dubscottie

Stephen15 wrote: »

All well and good. Have you seen the leap reader on the right hand side which takes about 2 seconds to use as its a flat fare. Do you use the luas or the train much the leap card is a must for that. By the time you buy a ticket at the vending machine you've missed it. Also do you realise you might save money by using the leap carx

i buy my train tickets like everyone does.

The DB reader takes longer than 2 seconds.. Might explain the random numbers on the realtime yoke.. 3mins- 5 mins- Due- 5 mins- Due..

Leap cards.. Holding up the bus for us that have cash..

And having a leap card does not give you the right to jump the Q.

You are not special!