bayonet

animaal

I saw the Irish soldiers marching in the commemoration today, I thought they looked very well.

They had bayonets on their Steyr rifles. Does the bayonet serve any practical purpose on a rifle like that, or is it purely ceremonial? I can understand that 100 years ago, rifles were longer, and a bayonet turned a 303 into a weapon similar to a pike. In the chaos of the trenches, that could have been a significant advantage. Even on an FN, I felt it could serve some purpose.

Leaving aside that warfare is different to the trench warfare of yesteryear, does a bayonet on a Steyr have any practical advantage over a knife in the hand? Would the slight additional reach (The shape of the Steyr looks more awkward to handle as a pike) outweigh the reduction in control?

Thanks.

tac foley

Quote -

Here’s an account of a successful Scottish bayonet charge in Iraq. …

They were forced to use ‘cold steel’ as supplies of ammunition ran low.
Many of the militiamen turned and fled but the close-quarters fighting left around 20 rebels dead.
Thirty-five of Shia Moslem cleric Muqtada al-Sadr’s followers died and two British troops were injured during the three-hour battle.
A senior Argylls officer said last night: ‘After a fierce fight and with small amounts of ammo left, they put in a conventional left-flanking attack.
‘With bayonets attached, they finished off the enemy who had not run off.’
It was the first time in 22 years the Army had used bayonets in action.
The last came when the Scots Guards stormed Argentinian positions during the Falklands War.
The battle developed following a distress call from a group of eight British soldiers last Friday.
The troops under the command of Major Adam Griffiths were surrounded on the notorious Route Six highway while en route to Camp Abu Naji in southern Iraq. Their LandRovers were riddled with bullets and they came under attack from rocket launchers and grenades.
But as a 30-strong platoon of Argylls responded to the SOS, the militia were getting reinforcements.
The men from the Stirlingshire-based regiment were forced to dig in and shoot back.
The Argylls were aided by a detachment of the Princess of Wales’ Royal Regiment, who arrived at the scene in armoured Warrior vehicles.
More than 150 Iraqis were said to be involved in last week’s battle. Military sources say the militiamen miscalculated the response from the original group of soldiers.
Last night, a source said: ‘Morale is very good following this serious incident.
‘The insurgents have been laying ambushes on Route Six one of the main roads between Basra and Baghdad for some time.
‘Previously, the response from small British groups has been drive on. These militiamen were obviously expecting this to happen again.

Also, from 2011 in 'stan. -

"They don't like it 'up em!" was the catch phrase from Corporal Jones of Dad's Army.
Today, 28 September, another Corporal Jones, Sean Jones of the Princess of Wales's Regiment was awarded the Military Cross for leading a bayonet charge in Afghanistan late last year. Ambushed in the open without cover and pinned down by Taliban fire Corporal Jones ordered his team to do what British squaddies have done for some 400 years, fix bayonets and charge the buggers.
While most modern armies, most notably the US Army have given up their bayonets for all but ceremonial functions and last performed a bayonet charge in 1951 during the Korean War. British forces have found that the tactic that scared the intestines out of American Rebels, Napoleon's Imperial Guard, German stormtroopers and assorted spear wavers and turbanned hordes is still effective. In recent history, "Mad Mitch" Mitchell of the Argyles cleared the Crater district of Aden, the Scots Guards took Mount Tumbledown in the Falklands at bayonet point against Argentine special force and marines, a hard pressed and totally outnumbered British unit performed a charge against the Mahdi Army in Iraq in 2004, killing 40 in the hand to hand combat purely with cold steel and there have been several smaller bayonet charges when troops have run out of ammuntion or been cornered in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In an age of satellite-controlled drones, infra red cameras and kevlar body armour, isn't it quaint that a few inches of steel, almost unchanged for half a millenium and a screaming bloke from a nondescript town in Britain can be so effective?
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/23/worthwhile-scottish-bayonet-charge/#ixzz3fgai324Z

Does that answer your question?

tac

Gatling

Plenty or accounts where fix bayonets was ordered in Afghanistan especially with British forces should be videos on YouTube and live leak .
I'd much rather have a bayonet fixed to a rifle /carbine than having to get within grabbing distance to knife someone who maybe able to disarm you first

tac foley

Sticking a bayonet into somebody is a whole lot more personal than shooting them, that's for sure.

No opposition seems to hang around for very long when they are getting charged by a VERY annoyed fifteen-stone six-footer in full fighting kit intent pushing his bayonet through their navel and out between their shoulder blades. For a start, it stings quite a bit, or so I'm told.

tac

animaal

Thanks, that's very interesting. It'd take some guts to charge an enemy like that.

Morpheus

The irish defence forces still train with the bayonet. its also a handy multi tool to have on hand and can be adapted for use as a secateurs (wire cutter) .

tac foley

All infantry train with the bayonet.

After the bayonet has broken, all you have left is the gun, and then, anything that you can lay your hands on, like the Gurkha in 'stan who beat a taliban to death with the bipod of his empty machine-gun...

tac

Morpheus

Plus there is no more fun than running up a hill stabbing a dummy on the ground, then one on a frame, whilst screaming
PARRY! SLASH! STAB! TWIST! WITHDRAW! at the top of your lungs ... preceded by a fairly animal YYEEAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH****INGGGGETITYOUUMOTHER****ERRRRRRSSSS!!!!!!!

They dont like it up em!

Manic Moran

Bottom line, bayonet charges are usually won or lost before the two sides make contact. It's a psychological thing far more than a practical one, for both sides of the equation.

tac foley

Just so long as the right side gets the point......:D

As far as it being a 'psychological thing', the Confederate troops at Little Round top got the message loud and clear. Lol Chamberlain and the 24th Maine were coming down that hill, and nothing was going to stop them.

tac

galwaycyclist

tac foley wrote: »

Just so long as the right side gets the point......:D

As far as it being a 'psychological thing', the Confederate troops at Little Round top got the message loud and clear. Lol Chamberlain and the 24th Maine were coming down that hill, and nothing was going to stop them.

tac

If I remember correctly the 24th Maine were out of ammunition anyway - bayonet charge was the last thing they had left.

Lemming

As an aside point, the 24th Maine charge was captured in the film Gettysburg (the unit was to feature quite a bit in the film, not just for holding the Union flank). It's a well crafted film although with a running time of near five hours, it's not a quick viewing choice.

Markcheese

Morpheus wrote: »

Plus there is no more fun than running up a hill stabbing a dummy on the ground, then one on a frame, whilst screaming
PARRY! SLASH! STAB! TWIST! WITHDRAW! at the top of your lungs ... preceded by a fairly animal YYEEAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH****INGGGGETITYOUUMOTHER****ERRRRRRSSSS!!!!!!!

They dont like it up em!

I suppose parry-slash-twist-withdraw is as good a battle cry as any other especially if the opposition don't speak English!

galwaycyclist

Lemming wrote: »

As an aside point, the 24th Maine charge was captured in the film Gettysburg (the unit was to feature quite a bit in the film, not just for holding the Union flank). It's a well crafted film although with a running time of near five hours, it's not a quick viewing choice.

This action is also useful for teaching foot drill - as its an example of a body of troops performing a wheel in line formation - but performed as a genuine battle drill.

Owryan

Lemming wrote: »

As an aside point, the 24th Maine charge was captured in the film Gettysburg (the unit was to feature quite a bit in the film, not just for holding the Union flank). It's a well crafted film although with a running time of near five hours, it's not a quick viewing choice.

20th Maine, Plus there is some dispute as to whether or not Col. Chamberlain initiated the final charge.

The film also fails to fully show how tired and worn out the confederate forces were. That's not to take away from the impact of the charge itself.

galwaycyclist

One time on a night excercise in the Glen I had occasion to give the order to "fix bayonets" to an FCA platoon who were "in contact" with a PDF unit trying to infiltrate the position.*

I was met with the most blood curdling roar I've ever heard as the order went round the lines. Followed by much rattling of equipment and clicking of metal on metal.

Infiltration duly ceased.

Of course none of the FCA lads actually had bayonets.

* technically exceeding authority as a section commander
** I should point out that the platoon sgt who was ex royal marine might have been sneaking around in the dark organising this in advance.