Incident between taxi and bike - Dublin city centre

Cara10

I'm looking for a bit of advice. My sister was travelling to Dublin City Centre this morning by taxi and when the taxi driver asked where to let her out she said 'anywhere along here is fine'. So he stopped the car and she paid him and opened the door to get out.

Unfortunately, the door hit a cyclist who was passing on the inside and he was knocked off his bike. My sister was in shock and immediately asked the cyclist if he was okay etc. He assured her that he was fine - just a bit sore and that his bike was okay too. My sister felt terrible and was constantly apologising to him but he kept saying her was fine - no need for guards etc.

The taxi driver then intervened and told my sister that it was her fault and that she was to give both the cyclist and him her name and number so they could be in touch if needed. She did as she was told - all the while the cyclist was saying he was fine and no need etc but the taxi driver insisted. The taxi driver then said that he would be in touch with my sister as there was a small dent on his door that would need fixing.

My sister couldn't continue on to work - she was so upset and had to come home again. I am so upset for my sister (and feel bad for the cyclist too) as she is devastated and feels terrified she will be hit with big bills now. I don't know who is at fault here and I am hoping to advise her as accurately as possible. Is the onus on the taxi driver to let her disembark in a safe place or was my sister at fault and is she liable if there is any follow up?

sweetie

I would think she's fine. The taxi driver is liable for damage to his car and cyclist. Tell her not to worry.

MagicMarker

Your sister was at fault.

TallGlass

Taxi driver is liable. This is why taxi drivers have public liability insurance. Tell him to **** off if he contacts your sister and tell him if he wants to contact her again do it via the Garda.

I may not be using correct terms. But I can tell you something if a taxi driver started demanding my name, I would be swiftly calling the Garda. They can have my name if needed.

cython

Several factors here, and also some missing information to determine who was really at fault. As stated though, the taxi driver's insurance should cover it as they have said insurance, and they assume at least some liability for their passengers' actions, as well as an obligation to ensure it is safe for them to alight when they stop.

In the general sense of who was morally at fault (not always the same as who is deemed liable from an insurance perspective) though, there are a few questions outstanding:

1. Why did your sister not check the way was clear? If a cyclist could pass on the inside, the taxi must have been out a bit, so always a good idea in that scenario
2. Why did the taxi driver not pull in close enough to the kerb that the cyclist could not pass on the inside? They have an obligation to do same to avoid incidents like this
3. Was the taxi indicating left for pulling in at the time? If so the cyclist probably should share some blame, for passing on the inside of a left-indicating vehicle.

Arguably there is blame to be laid on all parties (depending on circumstances slightly), but the taxi driver is the "professional" driver here, and so should conduct themselves, and drive their vehicle in such a way as to prevent such incidents.

hardCopy

cython wrote: »

Several factors here, and also some missing information to determine who was really at fault. As stated though, the taxi driver's insurance should cover it as they have said insurance, and they assume at least some liability for their passengers' actions, as well as an obligation to ensure it is safe for them to alight when they stop.

In the general sense of who was morally at fault (not always the same as who is deemed liable from an insurance perspective) though, there are a few questions outstanding:

1. Why did your sister not check the way was clear? If a cyclist could pass on the inside, the taxi must have been out a bit, so always a good idea in that scenario
2. Why did the taxi driver not pull in close enough to the kerb that the cyclist could not pass on the inside? They have an obligation to do same to avoid incidents like this
3. Was the taxi indicating left for pulling in at the time? If so the cyclist probably should share some blame, for passing on the inside of a left-indicating vehicle.

Arguably there is blame to be laid on all parties (depending on circumstances slightly), but the taxi driver is the "professional" driver here, and so should conduct themselves, and drive their vehicle in such a way as to prevent such incidents.

Does indicating left imply right of way? I'm struggling to see how the indicator could shift blame onto the cyclist.

cython

hardCopy wrote: »

Does indicating left imply right of way? I'm struggling to see how the indicator could shift blame onto the cyclist.

No right of way, per se, but as a cyclist common sense says to me not to go up the inside of a left-indicating vehicle! This goes double if the car is a taxi with an increased likelihood of them letting a passenger out.

Also, legally if there is an expectation of a left-indicating vehicle completing a turn before the cyclist can overtake on the left, the cyclist should not be there. Without knowing more about the incident, we can't say whether this was the case here or not, but as someone who could find themselves faced with the same taxi to pass, I would be especially wary of passing on the inside if the taxi was indicating left. Though I would be careful around any taxi stopped in the middle of the road to be honest, and give a wide berth whenever possible.

Please note, I also referred to moral blame as opposed to liability from an insurance perspective - unless a vehicle is stuck in bumper to bumper traffic with no space to actually move left, any cyclist that knowingly goes up the inside of a left-indicating vehicle has put themselves in a stupid position, and has to take blame for not taking a safer option, and I say this as someone who cycles > 25km in Dublin to and from work on a daily basis.

Falcon L

hardCopy wrote: »

Does indicating left imply right of way? I'm struggling to see how the indicator could shift blame onto the cyclist.

Common sense would prevent me from diving up the inside of a taxi that has indicated and stopped, was there for a bit while being paid and might just have a passenger exiting either of the left hand doors.

Does common sense not apply to cyclists?

Either way, the driver of the taxi has the mirrors. He should have told his passenger it was unsafe to open the door.

Edit: what Cython said while I was one-finger typing

ThisRegard

Common sense would dictate the taxi driver pull in. Sounds like he didn't want to go to the hassle and decided to drop her off while sitting in traffic, rather than at a safe place for both his passenger and other road users. You see it all the time.

Falcon L

ThisRegard wrote: »

Common sense would dictate the taxi driver pull in. Sounds like he didn't want to go to the hassle and decided to drop her off while sitting in traffic, rather than at a safe place for both his passenger and other road users. You see it all the time.

Ah, well if this is the case, the taxi driver is fully at fault.

hardCopy

Falcon L wrote: »

Common sense would prevent me from diving up the inside of a taxi that has indicated and stopped, was there for a bit while being paid and might just have a passenger exiting either of the left hand doors.

Does common sense not apply to cyclists?

Either way, the driver of the taxi has the mirrors. He should have told his passenger it was unsafe to open the door.

Edit: what Cython said while I was one-finger typing

I wouldn't pass on the left in that case either, nor would I blame the cyclist for two other people's mistakes.

The taxi driver is to blame for letting a passenger of in the middle of the road, passenger for stepping out into traffic without looking.

schemingbohemia

Falcon L wrote: »

Common sense would prevent me from diving up the inside of a taxi that has indicated and stopped, was there for a bit while being paid and might just have a passenger exiting either of the left hand doors.

Does common sense not apply to cyclists?

Either way, the driver of the taxi has the mirrors. He should have told his passenger it was unsafe to open the door.

Edit: what Cython said while I was one-finger typing

It doesn't state anywhere in the OP that the Taxi had indicated, nor how long it had stopped, nor whether it would be obvious to a cyclist behind in traffic that payment had been made and a passenger was about to get out into traffic without looking.

Both the Taxi driver and passenger it would seem to me share the blame based on what was stated in the OP.

Falcon L

hardCopy wrote: »

I wouldn't pass on the left in that case either, nor would I blame the cyclist for two other people's mistakes.

The taxi driver is to blame for letting a passenger of in the middle of the road, passenger for stepping out into traffic without looking.

It's not clear in the OP whether the taxi driver stopped in the middle of the road or at the path.

Falcon L

schemingbohemia wrote: »

It doesn't state anywhere in the OP that the Taxi had indicated, nor how long it had stopped, nor whether it would be obvious to a cyclist behind in traffic that payment had been made and a passenger was about to get out into traffic without looking.

Never said it did. What I did say is that common sense would dictate to me not to take any chances with taxi doors.

d31b0y

If there is enough space on the inside for a cyclist to pass then the taxi driver hasn't selected a safe position for the pasenger to disembark.
It's the drivers problem in my eyes.

seamus

Long story short, if the cyclist wished to pursue it, he would sue the taxi driver, who could then in turn sue the passenger.

Think of it as two separate damages:

1. The cyclist, who has been injured by the actions of a vehicle and therefore has redress against the 3rd party insurance on the vehicle
2. The taxi driver, whose door has been damaged. Much the same as if the passenger hit the door off a wall, the driver could claim damages against them

If the cyclist claims against the taxi driver's insurance, they can then claim against the passenger for that too.

In reality, the taxi driver's insurance company aren't going to be bothered chasing a private individual for a small claim like this. If she gets any phone calls from the taxi driver or his insurance company she should just say that she can't afford to pay and she's not going to. Let his insurance cover it, that's what he pays it for.

Cara10

Thank you for all the replies - I won't see my sister until tonight so I can't answer about the position of the car on the road until then. I am not trying to suggest that my sister is not morally at fault - she knows she should have checked before opening the door, but she thought once the taxi driver had stopped and took her money etc that it was safe for her to get out - she would not be very streetwise unfortunately.

She did repeatedly apologise to the cyclist who accepted her apology and she feels terrible for any hurt he has sustained. She is afraid that the taxi driver is going to ring her now looking for money and that she would have to pay a huge amount. At least I can tell her now that the taxi driver can be told to claim it on his insurance.

Thanks again for all the replies - I will show her this later and hopefully it can reassure her somewhat.

spurious

If I was the taxi driver, I would want the contact details of everyone involved. It's not uncommon for someone in an accident to feel fine at the time and a good deal worse later. If the cyclist were to pursue this, I, as the driver, would want to be able to find your sister to give her version of events.

Cara10

spurious wrote: »

If I was the taxi driver, I would want the contact details of everyone involved. It's not uncommon for someone in an accident to feel fine at the time and a good deal worse later. If the cyclist were to pursue this, I, as the driver, would want to be able to find your sister to give her version of events.

I didn't actually think of this angle - maybe that is part of it. Thanks for that

Snickers Man

Falcon L wrote: »

Common sense would prevent me from diving up the inside of a taxi that has indicated and stopped, was there for a bit while being paid and might just have a passenger exiting either of the left hand doors.

Common sense (and bitter experience) might also enlighten you as it has me to the frequent occurrence of a taxi in heavy traffic stopped at a light taking the fare from somebody while stationary in a line of traffic. So there is no way a cyclist in an on-street marked cycle lane moving up on the inside passing a line of stationary traffic to see the taxi indicating and then getting clobbered by a heedless passenger opening the door.

not saying that was the scenario here but it frequently is.

schemingbohemia

Falcon L wrote: »

Never said it did. What I did say is that common sense would dictate to me not to take any chances with taxi doors.

Sorry but if you follow that thought process through logically, cyclists could never undertake a taxi ever whether they're in the middle of the road or not.

I, and most other cyclists always take extra care when coming up to a stopped taxi, but we cannot just stop behind every taxi just in case an idiot opens the door on us. We do have a right to travel on the road.

Your earlier comment that cyclists don't have common sense is unwarranted.

Mrs OBumble

Was the cyclist on the road or the footpath at the time?

Falcon L

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Your earlier comment that cyclists don't have common sense is unwarranted.

Again, not what I said.

nthside_cycle

Taxi driver is at fault. Taxi driver has side mirrors to check traffic from other lanes and informing the passenger when it safe to exit.

sweetie

As a cyclist and motorist I'm always extra aware of car potentially opening doors on me and careful when I'm driving as cyclists can seem to come out of nowhere sometimes.

JohnBee

Cara10 wrote: »

I am not trying to suggest that my sister is not morally at fault - she knows she should have checked before opening the door, but she thought once the taxi driver had stopped and took her money etc that it was safe for her to get out - she would not be very streetwise unfortunately.

Highly unlikely that anything will come of this. However reading what you have said about your sister, and the way you have written it suggests that both of you are not streetwise.

Your sister should count herself lucky and both of you should look upon this as a life lesson to always look before you act in traffic at all times. ALWAYS ASSUME SOMEONE WILL DO SOMETHING STUPID and you cant go wrong.

foggy_lad

Does a cyclist not have the same obligation as other road users? If a car had removed the door from that taxi then the stopped taxi driver would have been taking the details of the car that hit his taxi from behind and the car driver would be 100% liable.

I think the cyclist is 100% liable here as they cycled into an object which they should have been able to avoid if they were travelling at an appropriate speed.

hawkelady

Wow, come down off your high horse ..

Most arrogant post I've seen on here for a while ...





However reading what you have said about your sister, and the way you have written it suggests that both of you are not streetwise.

Your sister should count herself lucky and both of you should look upon this as a life lesson to always look before you act in traffic at all times. ALWAYS ASSUME SOMEONE WILL DO SOMETHING STUPID and you cant go wrong.[/QUOTE]

Zen65

Cara10 wrote: »

Is the onus on the taxi driver to let her disembark in a safe place or was my sister at fault and is she liable if there is any follow up?

I'm pretty sure your sister is not at fault.

If the taxi driver stopped the car correctly then the cyclist is at fault for trying to go inside the vehicle (I'm assuming she was getting out on the footpath side?)

If the taxi driver was not properly positioned for her to safely get out then it's his fault.

I hope she has the taxi driver's number (it's on display inside the cab). If the cyclist contacts her she should refer the matter to the driver.

cdebru

MagicMarker wrote: »

Your sister was at fault.

The taxi driver is in charge of the vehicle it is his responsibility to find a safe place to allow the passenger alight, and not to allow a passenger to open a door onto oncoming traffic.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

Does a cyclist not have the same obligation as other road users? If a car had removed the door from that taxi then the stopped taxi driver would have been taking the details of the car that hit his taxi from behind and the car driver would be 100% liable.

I think the cyclist is 100% liable here as they cycled into an object which they should have been able to avoid if they were travelling at an appropriate speed.

Impossible to say the cyclist is at any fault, presuming the cyclist wasn't on the footpath and the passenger opened the door on the footpath side. Did the taxi indicate, is there a cycle lane, why did the taxi leave sufficient room for cyclist to come up the inside, was the taxi just sitting in a line of traffic.Hitting a cyclist with a car door is the motorists fault, if you open your door out into traffic and passing traffic removes it for you then you pay to fix your door and the damage to the vehicle that removed it for you.

cdebru

Cara10 wrote: »

Thank you for all the replies - I won't see my sister until tonight so I can't answer about the position of the car on the road until then. I am not trying to suggest that my sister is not morally at fault - she knows she should have checked before opening the door, but she thought once the taxi driver had stopped and took her money etc that it was safe for her to get out - she would not be very streetwise unfortunately.

She did repeatedly apologise to the cyclist who accepted her apology and she feels terrible for any hurt he has sustained. She is afraid that the taxi driver is going to ring her now looking for money and that she would have to pay a huge amount. At least I can tell her now that the taxi driver can be told to claim it on his insurance.

Thanks again for all the replies - I will show her this later and hopefully it can reassure her somewhat.

Your sister doesn't have mirrors to check for oncoming traffic the driver does, he should never have left enough room for a cyclist to pass him on the inside, completely drivers negligence.

Cara10

My sister said that the taxi stopped but did not pull in. When she opened the door to get out, it was only then she realised it was opening into a cycle lane - she thought it was just away from the kerb. She should have checked behind her before opening the door (and I'm sure she won't make that mistake again given how upset she was).

In my opinion then I feel that she is partly to blame (morally) but surely the taxi driver should have anticipated that she was about to get out of the car and checked his mirrors. He would have been more aware that there was a cycle lane there than she would have. I have advised her that if the taxi driver calls, to tell him that he should go through his insurance and leave it at that. If insurance company contacts her down the line we will deal with it then.

Should she log a report at the local Garda station in case there is any contact from the cyclist? She said that he was a lovely guy and was adamant that he was fine but I know shock can delay pain reaction. She didn't take any details from the taxi - not even plate number. It was after both cyclist and taxi had left the scene that she called home. She had never been in a situation like that before and just let the taxi driver lead the whole thing.

mickmmc

There was a newspaper report a few year's ago where former FF Minister John O' Donoghue opened the passenger door of the ministerial car and a cyclist was hit by the door. The woman broke her leg.

In my opinion, the car insurance should cover any claim.

Cara10

mickmmc wrote: »

There was a newspaper report a few year's ago where former FF Minister John O' Donoghue opened the passenger door of the ministerial car and a cyclist was hit by the door. The woman broke her leg.

In my opinion, the car insurance should cover any claim.

I hope the cyclist is okay in my sisters case. I don't think he was at fault at all now given what she updated me with above. He was in his own lane, going in the right direction etc so he must have got a fright when the door opened into his path.

selous

Dermot Lacey (the ex lord mayor and councillor) got clattered a few weeks ago by a person opening a car door too, on his way to a road safety meeting, oops.

My advice is go to her nearest Garda station and ask advice there, they should know the law and procedure to follow, easy for the taxi driver to say cyclist dented the door on a dent that's been there before, and if it is new, she can get it fixed at a place of her choice, not he hands her a bill for up to E1k after it's repaired.

cdebru

Cara10 wrote: »

My sister said that the taxi stopped but did not pull in. When she opened the door to get out, it was only then she realised it was opening into a cycle lane - she thought it was just away from the kerb. She should have checked behind her before opening the door (and I'm sure she won't make that mistake again given how upset she was).

In my opinion then I feel that she is partly to blame (morally) but surely the taxi driver should have anticipated that she was about to get out of the car and checked his mirrors. He would have been more aware that there was a cycle lane there than she would have. I have advised her that if the taxi driver calls, to tell him that he should go through his insurance and leave it at that. If insurance company contacts her down the line we will deal with it then.

Should she log a report at the local Garda station in case there is any contact from the cyclist? She said that he was a lovely guy and was adamant that he was fine but I know shock can delay pain reaction. She didn't take any details from the taxi - not even plate number. It was after both cyclist and taxi had left the scene that she called home. She had never been in a situation like that before and just let the taxi driver lead the whole thing.

It is completely down to the taxi driver, he was blessed the cyclist didn't want to make a bigger deal of it nevermind trying to get your sister to pay for damage to his car.

He has a responsibility to allow your sister to exit the vehicle in a safe place, he pulled up in the middle of the road with a cycle lane on his inside and allowed your sister to exit into the cycle lane. Your sister should tell him to take a run and jump, or look for damages from him for the stress he has put her through.

dr.fuzzenstein

foggy_lad wrote: »

Does a cyclist not have the same obligation as other road users? If a car had removed the door from that taxi then the stopped taxi driver would have been taking the details of the car that hit his taxi from behind and the car driver would be 100% liable.

I think the cyclist is 100% liable here as they cycled into an object which they should have been able to avoid if they were travelling at an appropriate speed.

That is an interesting theory. I invite you to open a door right into a path of an oncoming cyclist and sue him for damages.
Report back to us how you got on, I predict quite a windfall!

the_syco

hardCopy wrote: »

Does indicating left imply right of way? I'm struggling to see how the indicator could shift blame onto the cyclist.

An indicator means he's indicating that he intends to go that way.

If the taxi had not moved to the left, was stopped, and still indicating to go left, but not yet moved left, it means that he intends to go left.

Stopping in the middle of the road, indicator on, doesn't give you any magical rights.

OP doesn't mention anything about an indicator, so it seems the taxi didn't give proper care to anyone else on the road.

foggy_lad wrote: »

If a car had removed the door from that taxi then the stopped taxi driver would have been taking the details of the car that hit his taxi from behind and the car driver would be 100% liable.

Wrong. The taxi would've been liable for not checking before opening the door.

Cara10 wrote: »

My sister said that the taxi stopped but did not pull in. When she opened the door to get out, it was only then she realised it was opening into a cycle lane - she thought it was just away from the kerb.

So the taxi didn't pull in, nor did he check his mirror before letting your sister out?

Tell your sister to write everything down whilst it's fresh in her head.

IMO, if the taxi rings, ask for his insurance details as she suffered shock from the instance where he didn't pull in to let her out, and that he never looked in his mirrors; if it had been a motorcycle, she could have been injured a lot worse. And I doubt you'll ever hear from them again.

n97 mini

As already stated, your sister should have checked, but the taxi driver's insurance will cover it.

If the taxi driver comes back looking for money I'd challenge him to prove legally he has any entitlement.

Spook_ie

I would imagine in a court case it would all come down to the interpretation of SI 332/2012

in particular

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—


(i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,


(ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or


(iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

So the taxi driver, cyclist and passenger would probably need the ID of all people and of any witnesses to the incident

cdebru

Spook_ie wrote: »

I would imagine in a court case it would all come down to the interpretation of SI 332/2012

in particular



So the taxi driver, cyclist and passenger would probably need the ID of all people and of any witnesses to the incident

The presence of the cycle lane makes it fairly clear cut, it is a traffic lane the same as any other so you can't turn across it or enter it without yielding to traffic already in the lane, and just like it wouldn't be safe to allow passengers to exit into a bus lane or normal left lane the same applies to a cycle lane, the taxi should be pulled into the footpath or side of the road to allow passengers to alight, he wasn't he left the cycle lane on his inside and allowed his passenger to open the door into the lane.

Even without the cycle lane the taxi would be in the wrong the cycle lane just makes it even more clear cut.

stoneill

Seems to me that the taxi driver is looking for your sister to pay for repairs that was not her fault.

He should have pulled in and had indicator on - cyclist should not have gone up inside.

cdebru

stoneill wrote: »

Seems to me that the taxi driver is looking for your sister to pay for repairs that was not her fault.

He should have pulled in and had indicator on - cyclist should not have gone up inside.

If he had pulled in the cyclist couldn't have gone up the inside, but he didn't and left the cycle lane clear and the cyclist was perfectly entitled to use the cycle lane.

CarrickMcJoe

When you pay the taxi driver, is insurance not included in fare as in, you're insured while in the cab.
Driver should have checked mirrors anyway to see if it was safe to open door.

Odyssey 2005

Just say there was no taxi sign on the car. Then it would be between the cyclist and the car driver. He's just trying to pull a fast one and shift blame. Your sister should tell him where to go.

cdebru

Odyssey 2005 wrote: »

Just say there was no taxi sign on the car. Then it would be between the cyclist and the car driver. He's just trying to pull a fast one and shift blame. Your sister should tell him where to go.

Exactly

If a bus driver opened the doors and you got knocked down by a bicycle coming up the cycle lane who would be responsible ?

endacl

cdebru wrote: »

Exactly

If a bus driver opened the doors and you got knocked down by a bicycle coming up the cycle lane who would be responsible ?

The bankers. And Irish water.

Mrs OBumble

endacl wrote: »

The bankers. And Irish water.

And the church, the English and the Vikings. Not necessarily in that order.

the_syco

stoneill wrote: »

He should have pulled in and had indicator on - cyclist should not have gone up inside.

Taxi had indicator on, but had not pulled in. Thus as far as anyone else on the road would be concerned; the taxi is intending to pull in, but hadn't yet.

RobbingBandit

Tell your sister to jot down all the details she can remember keep it just in case it's needed.