loan from my brother

irish gent

I was out last night with my very wealthy Brother, I asked him for a loan of 50k towards a house as the banks wont give me that much . The reply I got was a bit disheartening , Im 56 years old Marriage over 3 kids 18 plus house has to go as we both agreed , What he said was that he would give me the 50k , but that I would have to pay it back , of course I said I would pay it back to him . What he then said was, and I nearly fell off me chair was that I was not to expect any free hand outs and that if He needed me to do some jobs and drive him around for giving me the loan..I'm very disappointed in him. He knows my situation . Banks wont entertain me on a loan of that size at my age..

desbrook

I suggest you remember the old adage "if you want to lose a friend loan them money " . Just view virtually every episode of Judge Judy if you want more proof.

I know I'm being harsh but frankly such a loan is a recipe for disaster. If the bank with their vast experience and resources consider you are too big a risk why should a private individual loan you 50k??? And why should you feel entitled to it??

His response wasn't nice but neither was your request.

Dozen Wicked Words

It's a bit early to be taken aback by your brothers response OP, you had a very vague conversation where repayment or interest terms weren't sorted. Put a bit more meat on the bone about what he expects then you'll have a clearer idea if you feel you should be upset or not.

Ken.

I know he'd be doing you a big favour but I'd want everything in writing. First off how much is going to be paid back per week/month.

Then I'd be setting down ground rules for the odd jobs/driving around. E.g. at least x days/weeks notice for an odd job. x days for a lift unless its an emergency.

FURET

Neither a borrower nor a lender be. It's already damaging your relationship with your brother.

volono

i'll never understand responses like this. I mean the o.p. marriage is over his brother is very wealthy, must be for the o.p. to even consider him asking for the 50k in the first place. and never a lender or borrower be!!
imo a conversation should have already taken place with THE BROTHER asking the o.p. what was happening etc.. We have one family after that no one really gives a fock, i'll agree more detail re. the loan is needed but the heel of the hunt is that he should be giving you the loan and if that comes with ridiculous conditions then you know where you stand with him, he doesn't really give a shlt either.
I'd do anything for my family regardless and it really annoys me when I see advice being given like your talking to a stranger. If people have that type of relationship with their families why do you even bother speaking to them?? you may as well be speaking to people on the street, hope it works out o.p. that's my rant over

Stheno

I don't get attitudes like your op, if your brother is giving you a loan would you pay interest or would he consider helping him out in lieu of interest?

FURET

volono wrote: »

i'll never understand responses like this. I mean the o.p. marriage is over his brother is very wealthy, must be for the o.p. to even consider him asking for the 50k in the first place. and never a lender or borrower be!!
imo a conversation should have already taken place with THE BROTHER asking the o.p. what was happening etc.. We have one family after that no one really gives a fock, i'll agree more detail re. the loan is needed but the heel of the hunt is that he should be giving you the loan and if that comes with ridiculous conditions then you know where you stand with him, he doesn't really give a shlt either.
I'd do anything for my family regardless and it really annoys me when I see advice being given like your talking to a stranger. If people have that type of relationship with their families why do you even bother speaking to them?? you may as well be speaking to people on the street, hope it works out o.p. that's my rant over

Clearly you have decided that you are your brother's keeper, which is your right. But not everyone feels the same.

The wealthy brother may have worked hard and been prudent all his life, while the loan-seeking brother may have consistently made silly or wrong-headed choices. As someone who has a bit of wealth myself, I can assure you I didn't acquire it by loaning it out to kith and kin whenever someone was in a spot of bother, or without hard work and careful planning.

Basically, there is no onus on the wealthy brother to loan the money. If I were being asked for 50k by someone in his 50s, it's highly unlikely I'd give it as it's probably indicative of poor financial management skills. Onthe other hand if I did give it, I wouldn't go demanding that the recipient do odd jobs for me and drive me hither and thither.

Bottom line: Familial loans of a magnitude of 50k are a spoiled relationship waiting to happen. But, if the wealthy brother does give it, it should be a clear "you pay me back over a 7 year period on x date, period." None of the extraneous crap.

volono

furet more power to you for gaining some wealth etc. but how you think that asking for the 50k is probably indicative of poor financial management skills is beyond me. the o.p. has stated that he has 3 children that are 18 or over, have you kids yourself?? also we know nothing about how his money was spent over the years prudently or not!! we have no knowledge of the o.p. employment not everyone has a well paying career.
I'd argue the vast majority do not. No I'm certainly not my brothers or any other family members keepers but as I said you've only one family.
the kith and kin comment I don't understand, when it has happened - a family member is in need, they ask or you offer them help (this would involve virtually anything not just money) and agree a time when you receive it back, simple in my mind. The thought of not helping them would NEVER cross my mind. Like I said before if the brother demands 'extras' well he couldn't care less and I'd cut him out of my life that's how strongly I feel about it.

CaraMay

I don't think it's a good plan to borrow that amount of money from a family member. What's your relationship been like up to now? Do you help each other out with small stuff or is this your first time asking?

Tbh if you can't afford the house the traditional way op then you should be considering renting. This is already straining your family relationships.

MrWalsh

Absolutely no way I'd lend a family member 50k. It's a disaster waiting to explode. Find it incredible that anyone would think it's ok to ask at all!

Cut your cloth to your measure. You've put your brother in a horrible position even asking for the loan. Now he has responded in a way you don't like. He should have said no and been done with it but I guess you wouldn't have been happy with that response either.

jimmycrackcorm

OP, your brother is willing to do you a big favour and in return he is asking favours in return. Quid pro quo?

athtrasna

I think a lot of posters are being very harsh on the OP. My reading is that with the end of the marriage went the family home and he wants to put a secure roof over his head. If a family member is in a position to help with that and the OP is willing to commit to a legal agreement to repay then I see no wrong in the OP asking.

I do see wrong in the brother lording it up over the OP, a repayment scheme with interest would be much more in his interest than being beholden to be at the beck and call of his wealthy brother.

volono

EXACTLY ATHTRASNA the legal part maybe not but understand the logic. imo the money is not the issue here. I mean the o.p. wouldn't consider asking if he hadn't the means to repay no?? another thing what if the loan was for 20k, 10k?? does it change anything of course not.
like I said before if you can't help your FAMILY who can you help. If the brother wants to have the o.p. over a barrel because of the loan I already said he should cut him out of his life, but other posters think the o.p. is in the wrong and it's his fault for asking the brother in the first place , the mind boggles, I really don't understand the type of relationships you all have with your own families may as well be stray dogs by the sounds of it to me

meeeeh

Every situation is different and for some 50 thousand really isn't that much money and for some it is an enormous amount.

For me it is simple, you can ask and the other person can say no. And they can say yes. However you have to treat it as a business deal not as a way for one family member to gain an upper hand on another. Stick to the payment plan and keep it separate to other family arrangements.

rainbowtrout

volono wrote: »

EXACTLY ATHTRASNA the legal part maybe not but understand the logic. imo the money is not the issue here. I mean the o.p. wouldn't consider asking if he hadn't the means to repay no?? another thing what if the loan was for 20k, 10k?? does it change anything of course not.
like I said before if you can't help your FAMILY who can you help. If the brother wants to have the o.p. over a barrel because of the loan I already said he should cut him out of his life, but other posters think the o.p. is in the wrong and it's his fault for asking the brother in the first place , the mind boggles, I really don't understand the type of relationships you all have with your own families may as well be stray dogs by the sounds of it to me

Money is a big part of the issue here. The OP said the bank won't lend it to him. 50k in the greater scheme of things is a very small mortgage. If the bank won't lend it, then they must think he doesn't have the ability to repay it/ has a bad credit rating/ is already up to his neck in debt etc, etc. So, it is a risk for the brother to lend it in the first place, and puts him in an awkward position having being asked by the OP.

Money causes more rows between families than anything else: loans and inheritance. There are plenty of threads about both on here.

5599

My father loaned 15000 to my uncle who asked for money to redesign his shop. My dad never asked my uncle to return the money but there is always an awkward atmosphere when he visits our family home. Plus, I have generated a bit of hatred towards my uncle as I think, a man of self respect would have returned the money without asking!
What I am trying to say is never borrow or lend money from/to a family member.

volono

rainbowtrout we've no idea why the bank said no imo would it not be because he's selling the family home with the wife, debts to clear, outstanding mortage, etc etc.

5599 sorry to hear about that but your father should have agreed a time of repayment etc with your uncle and if that did happen and wasn't repaid etc. well he'd be gone from my life because he's not a brother to your father is he?? he's a using pr'ck.

to rainbow I know all about wills and inheritance etc. a family member hasn't been spoken to for over 10 years because of it. Not my choice there own!! for they let there true colours shine through really sad actually but that's life, the world is full of using abusing people

rainbowtrout

volono wrote: »

rainbowtrout we've no idea why the bank said no imo would it not be because he's selling the family home with the wife, debts to clear, outstanding mortage, etc etc.

Exactly, if he doesn't have the means to pay it to the bank, who is to say that he will pay it back to his brother?

Just because his brother is wealthy doesn't mean he has an entitlement to some of his money, regardless of the situation.

meeeeh

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Exactly, if he doesn't have the means to pay it to the bank, who is to say that he will pay it back to his brother?

Just because his brother is wealthy doesn't mean he has an entitlement to some of his money, regardless of the situation.

And his brother could have say no. I don't think that is the issue. But there is no point saying yes and then treating the other person like they are some sort of a lackey. Maybe the OP was wrong to ask but the answer wasn't right either.

volono

never said he had an entitlement, what I have said is that as a brother he should be willing to help out (this obviously involves a time of repayment ec etc) and without having the o.p. over a barrel, as family members it goes without saying that the o.p. isn't blinding asking for money come what may he's asking for help off his brother with an agreement to repay.

I don't see any sense of entitlement here whatsoever actually his brother is getting asked to help him in a time of need feck the money it could be for a box of matches for all I care

Now this works both ways obviously but its all based around trust and the type of relationship you have with family members as I've stated the thought of not giving the o.p. help wouldn't enter my mind but hey ho from what I've read I'm in the minority

MrWalsh

If the brother had said no the OP would be complaining that his brother won't help him. Perhaps the brother said what he did to dissuade the OP from taking the loan while not actually having to say no?

CaraMay

MrWalsh wrote: »

If the brother had said no the OP would be complaining that his brother won't help him. Perhaps the brother said what he did to dissuade the OP from taking the loan while not actually having to say no?

This is a good point. On top if that he may have thought it was a joke seeing as he asked him while they were out socially.

bobbyj946

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

OP, your brother is willing to do you a big favour and in return he is asking favours in return. Quid pro quo?

The OP is being asked to place himself in a position in which he would feel belittled to his own brother.

OP your response was completely normal.

My response would be:
"I've had a tough few years, losing my marriage has been hard emotionally and financially. Running your errands and taxing you around changes the relationship we have had for years. I would feel belittled by this and would become bitter towards you. I value our relationship more than the money. The money is not that important, l can do without it."

I don't know financial situation OP but could you save hard for a few years and then try the banks?

dori_dormer

To be honest I don't see why the op Needs to buy a house at all. Probably what the banks feel too. If his kids are all grown up then they won't be coming and staying every weekend for access etc.

I think renting a one bed apt would be cheaper financially and emotionally than being indebted to your brother

TwoGallants

In my opinion it depends on how wealthy the brother is! If 50k isn't a big deal then I don't understand all of the people saying its a disaster waiting to happen. I mean, if I had the money to give to my family, I would. It wouldn't be a big problem for me. The wealthy brother is a typical rich man; he wrongly assumes that his poorer brother is lazy or somehow useless because he doesn't have 50k knocking around. Unfortunately its a common worldview among rich people.

iusedtoknow

TwoGallants wrote: »

In my opinion it depends on how wealthy the brother is! If 50k isn't a big deal then I don't understand all of the people saying its a disaster waiting to happen. I mean, if I had the money to give to my family, I would. It wouldn't be a big problem for me. The wealthy brother is a typical rich man; he wrongly assumes that his poorer brother is lazy or somehow useless because he doesn't have 50k knocking around. Unfortunately its a common worldview among rich people.

It really isn't anyone else's business how "Rich" the other brother is - and bare in mind there is no typically rich man. Bill Gates is loaded, so is Kanye West. Just because you have some cash does not turn you into an ATM. I don't have a clue how much my family earn or have in their accounts, it is irrelevant to our relationship. I don't think we have ever once discussed it. We're generous with each other, and there is never an issue if something isn't paid immediately or something else that we are planning jointly.

The bank turned down the OP for a reason. 50 something years old, wanting 50K. Even at 10 years, that is 5000 a year to pay back. If the bank are dubious of the OPs ability to repay, then alarm bells should ring for the brother. What if the other brother has say 100k in liquid cash - that could be his entire retirement fund for all anyone knows. 50K could decimate that.

ScumLord

volono wrote: »

I don't see any sense of entitlement here whatsoever actually his brother is getting asked to help him in a time of need feck the money it could be for a box of matches for all I care

I don't see any need here. The OP wants to buy a house, he doesn't have the money, wants brother to lend him a pretty substantial lump of money to get something he wants.

I wouldn't like lending that kind of money to someone I wasn't willing to fall out with. Repaying loans between family and friends can be a very slow process. The loaner will let repayments slide because they think they'll be let off.

Miaireland

MrWalsh wrote: »

If the brother had said no the OP would be complaining that his brother won't help him. Perhaps the brother said what he did to dissuade the OP from taking the loan while not actually having to say no?

I wondered this as well.To be honest I do think that the op has put his brother in a tough situation. Given the banks are not are not confident in the ops ability to pay back the loan I can understand if the brother is worried.

Also, heaven forbid if something happens to the op who would pay back the loan.

irish gent

Thank you so much for the response to my Question it has certainly made me think ? I will be no longer asking him for the loan and I will go this one on my own. I have 20k saved and I do not have any out standing loans . I think that the banks are not telling the full truth when it comes to the loans to the people of this country.thank you again guys.

CaraMay

irish gent wrote: »

Thank you so much for the response to my Question it has certainly made me think ? I will be no longer asking him for the loan and I will go this one on my own. I have 20k saved and I do not have any out standing loans . I think that the banks are not telling the full truth when it comes to the loans to the people of this country.thank you again guys.

Op the banks only typically lend for mortgages up to age 65 so maybe they don't see that you can repay the mortgage in 9 years. It's tough but they have guidelines for a reason.

rainbowtrout

irish gent wrote: »

Thank you so much for the response to my Question it has certainly made me think ? I will be no longer asking him for the loan and I will go this one on my own. I have 20k saved and I do not have any out standing loans . I think that the banks are not telling the full truth when it comes to the loans to the people of this country.thank you again guys.

Well presumably there was some reason they refused you, only you know the reason. Everyone here can only speculate.

In the long run OP, you're probably better off going it alone if you can, it will mean any relationship you have with your brother will not be soured by a loan hanging over both of you.

ScumLord

irish gent wrote: »

I have 20k saved and I do not have any out standing loans .

You should try and keep it that way too. If you're good at saving I'd just wait until you can pretty much buy a house with your savings.

TwoGallants

iusedtoknow wrote: »

It really isn't anyone else's business how "Rich" the other brother is - and bare in mind there is no typically rich man. Bill Gates is loaded, so is Kanye West. Just because you have some cash does not turn you into an ATM. I don't have a clue how much my family earn or have in their accounts, it is irrelevant to our relationship. I don't think we have ever once discussed it. We're generous with each other, and there is never an issue if something isn't paid immediately or something else that we are planning jointly.

The bank turned down the OP for a reason. 50 something years old, wanting 50K. Even at 10 years, that is 5000 a year to pay back. If the bank are dubious of the OPs ability to repay, then alarm bells should ring for the brother. What if the other brother has say 100k in liquid cash - that could be his entire retirement fund for all anyone knows. 50K could decimate that.

Fair enough, but there is a huge difference between 100k and say... 20 million. Thats why I say it depends on how rich he is. All I'm saying is that if I were wealthy, I wouldn't even think twice about it, I'd walk him to the bank myself (although this may be a good explanation for my lack of wealth! Many studies have concluded that corporate successes tend to be borderline psychopaths, which to be honest, is how I saw the brother when he gave him the little lecture about being his driver or handyman or whatever it was)

PinkLemonade

TwoGallants wrote: »

Fair enough, but there is a huge difference between 100k and say... 20 million. Thats why I say it depends on how rich he is. All I'm saying is that if I were wealthy, I wouldn't even think twice about it, I'd walk him to the bank myself (although this may be a good explanation for my lack of wealth! Many studies have concluded that corporate successes tend to be borderline psychopaths, which to be honest, is how I saw the brother when he gave him the little lecture about being his driver or handyman or whatever it was)

I think those studies are based on CEOs of multi million euro companies, rather than someone doing well in a corporate environment, to suggest the brother is a psycho is pretty ludicrous.

OP, I've had family members offer me help before, but I'd never take it if I can avoid it, being in debt and owing something to a family member is where all the trouble usually starts. You already know it won't be pretty if you borrow the money if your brother, walk away from this idea and figure out what other options you have.

irish gent

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well presumably there was some reason they refused you, only you know the reason. Everyone here can only speculate.

In the long run OP, you're probably better off going it alone if you can, it will mean any relationship you have with your brother will not be soured by a loan hanging over both of you.


it was because That I was separated and the house was not sold ..

bolopapa

He is your brother and am sure you know him better than anyone here. You should have expected something like this. He seems like a principled man, and from what you wrote, he probably believe you are likely not to pay back. So hes trying clearify things. thus the no handout policy. More like the prodical son kind of story.