My water is unfit for human consumption

IwFu

My tap water is contaminated by lead.
Even after running my tap for 20 mins the lead is still high. YOU never tested my water. I got an independent test ( more trustworthy in my opinion ). Until IRISH WATER get this issue sorted why haven't IRISH WATER put water tanks in my area for people to have access to lead free water?
I live in Raheny btw, which has extremely high levels of lead.

Irish Water: Niall

Hi,

Thank you for your query.

The drinking water produced in Irish Water's treatment plants and supplied through the public water mains meets the requirements of the Drinking Water Regulations with regard to lead. Irish Water is responsible for the pipes under the road or paths to the outer edge of the boundary of the property. The property owner is responsible for the pipe from the outer edge of the property boundary to the building and all the inside plumbing.

Lead was predominantly the material used to connect the public mains supply to private properties and building and for internal plumbing up to and including the 1970s, however, lead has also been used for carrying water for centuries. Irish Water's records currently show there are no lead water mains in Ireland. There are still some lead pipes in the public network, but these are mostly in the short pipes connecting the (public) water main to the (private) water supply pipes. In most cases, 90% of the supply pipe is within the private property. Lead can be picked up by the water as it travels through lead service connection pipes to properties and/or in internal lead plumbing.

Water tankers were not provided as the replacement of lead pipes on the private side is the responsibility of the home owner, which falls under the Home Renovation Incentive Scheme.

For more information on lead, please click here.

I hope you find this information helpful, if you have any further queries, please don't hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards,
Niall

Chemical Byrne

Niall is dead right.

As an engineer working in the water industry for a private firm I worked on surveys for lead piping. The vast vast majority of lead pipes are owned by and the responsibility of the homeowner.

What you are suggesting would be similar to if the sockets and light switches were hanging off your walls and you were getting on to Electric ireland or whoever to come into your house and fix them.

IW own up to the stop cock. You own from the stopcock onwards. The likelihood is that IW are supplying perfectly potable water to your property. It is the plumbing in your property that is contaminating the water with lead. It is your responsibility to remedy this problem.

degrassinoel

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Niall is dead right.

As an engineer working in the water industry for a private firm I worked on surveys for lead piping. The vast vast majority of lead pipes are owned by and the responsibility of the homeowner.

What you are suggesting would be similar to if the sockets and light switches were hanging off your walls and you were getting on to Electric ireland or whoever to come into your house and fix them.

IW own up to the stop cock. You own from the stopcock onwards. The likelihood is that IW are supplying perfectly potable water to your property. It is the plumbing in your property that is contaminating the water with lead. It is your responsibility to remedy this problem.

That's curious because it's a common occurrence throughout nearly all of the older housing estates in Dublin and has only arisen since the installation of the meters. My own water supply was checked randomly by the DCC around 3 years ago and was perfectly fine, right now it's 20 times above what is considered to be healthy, one of my neighbour's supply is three times worse than mine.

We literally have to buy bottled water because of the levels of lead in the drinking water, we were even advised not to brush our teeth with the tap water lol 

There are health issues here which have not been addressed by IW, and clearly they should be, particularly with the elderly, pregnant women and very young children. Does IW not have a responsibility to notify their "customers" regarding area-wide issues of health and safety when the water supply is severely contaminated with lead? I think they do. 

Saying "Oh it's your plumbing, not our water" is fine, but the problem was caused by IW considering that the contaminant levels did not exist prior to the meters instalment. 

It's also curious why IW haven't sent anyone out to anyone's house at all, to get a reading from the water. Nor have they sent any correspondence to notify households of the dangers, nor have they attempted to address the problem.

I'm beyond being surprised by this company at this stage tbh.  




  

Chemical Byrne

Well in my opinion IW would  have fulfilled their obligation which is to supply potable water to your property. I don't see how the addition of meters in itself would increase lead levels. ye did test the water prior to having them installed i presume? Did you use the same lab and the same type of test? 

It is possible though that a change in the ph of the supplied water may cause lead dissolution to increase. Did the lab supply ph information for you tests?

Either way, if it is the case that the lead piping that is the source of the lead in your water is located on your property then it really is your problem to sort it out. There are grant aids available sure.

Its the same as if you were getting shocks off of faulty internal electric wiring in your house - do you think it is ESB's responsibility to come in and re-wire your house? According to your logic they should.

That's not the way it works.

Its a bit rich to suggest IW are washing their hands of lead when the reality of it is you are washing your hands of it and expecting someone else to come along and fix a problem that is, most likely, due your own private plumbing.

degrassinoel

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Well in my opinion IW would  have fulfilled their obligation which is to supply potable water to your property. I don't see how the addition of meters in itself would increase lead levels. ye did test the water prior to having them installed i presume? Did you use the same lab and the same type of test? 

It is possible though that a change in the ph of the supplied water may cause lead dissolution to increase. Did the lab supply ph information for you tests?

Either way, if it is the case that the lead piping that is the source of the lead in your water is located on your property then it really is your problem to sort it out. There are grant aids available sure.

Its the same as if you were getting shocks off of faulty internal electric wiring in your house - do you think it is ESB's responsibility to come in and re-wire your house? According to your logic they should.

That's not the way it works.

Its a bit rich to suggest IW are washing their hands of lead when the reality of it is you are washing your hands of it and expecting someone else to come along and fix a problem that is, most likely, due your own private plumbing.

Not at all, the problem didn't exist three years ago, it does now since the meters were installed. I dont test the water myself, i'm only interested in if it's contaminated/drinkable or not so i cant answer your questions on that. I would like to know myself though if IW have any plans on testing the water.  

Washing their hands of it, i do appreciate the pun lol.

IW wont accept responsibility for damage done, by IW to the pipework leading from the street to the house which is odd because that's where their work starts with the installation, and it can be the only point of contamination considering that's where the lead piping is and i presume the only source of lead able to contaminate the water to multiple large housing estates. Just so ye know, this isnt just in Raheny either. I've been told all housing estates that were built roughly 50+ years back have lead pipes leading from the street to your personal household plumbing system, and with that, a high risk of lead contamination in their water supplies since the meter installations. 

IW install a meter into a lead pipe outside your property. 
The water becomes contaminated with lead directly because of this. 
IW refuse to accept responsibility. 

That's the short of it. I understand if you disagree, but this is what's been happening in my own estate for the last year and a half, (and almost a year of buying bottled water because we werent notified until a resident had a test done, then politicians got involved etc.. ) so i hope you can appreciate my viewpoint too. 

Chemical Byrne

Were there water tests prior to 3 years ago showing a lead level lower than the allowable limit?

The_Conductor

I would contend that there is no change in the quality of the water supplied to your property over the last few years- for the simple reason, there is no change in the manner in which the water is treated. The only notable change- would be from the installation of new pipes, replacing decaying piping. Public water supplies have not been made from lead (ever, as far as I know)- lead was however, the predominant piping in houses of a certain age.

You're really trying to blame Irish Water for something that is nothing whatsoever to do with them- the piping in your own home.

When I bought my home- I re-did the plumbing and the wiring. It sounds like you should do the same (with your plumbing at least).

degrassinoel

roughly 3 years back there was a DCC water test in my own home, the water was drinkable back then, the chap told me the reservoir it comes from and everything. if there was anything in it, it was well below the eu standard for safe drinking water. 

degrassinoel

The_Conductor wrote: »

I would contend that there is no change in the quality of the water supplied to your property over the last few years- for the simple reason, there is no change in the manner in which the water is treated. The only notable change- would be from the installation of new pipes, replacing decaying piping. Public water supplies have not been made from lead (ever, as far as I know)- lead was however, the predominant piping in houses of a certain age.

You're really trying to blame Irish Water for something that is nothing whatsoever to do with them- the piping in your own home.

When I bought my home- I re-did the plumbing and the wiring. It sounds like you should do the same (with your plumbing at least).

It's nothing to do with the plumbing in my house, it's the pipework outside from the street to the house. 

Chemical Byrne

It may be outside the house but can you clarify whether the lead pipe in question is in your ownership or not?

Is the lead piping upstream or downstream of the stopcock. You own and are responsible for any pipe downstream of the stopcock, regardless of its location. Any contamination resulting from said piping is, to put it bluntly, your problem.

Perhaps a comparison test of water extracted from the meter and water from your tap could definitively reveal the party responsible for the lead contamination.

The_Conductor

degrassinoel wrote: »

The_Conductor wrote: »

I would contend that there is no change in the quality of the water supplied to your property over the last few years- for the simple reason, there is no change in the manner in which the water is treated. The only notable change- would be from the installation of new pipes, replacing decaying piping. Public water supplies have not been made from lead (ever, as far as I know)- lead was however, the predominant piping in houses of a certain age.

You're really trying to blame Irish Water for something that is nothing whatsoever to do with them- the piping in your own home.

When I bought my home- I re-did the plumbing and the wiring. It sounds like you should do the same (with your plumbing at least).

It's nothing to do with the plumbing in my house, it's the pipework outside from the street to the house. 

You're probably talking about the service connection to the mains in the street from your house?
I paid to have mine replaced when I bought the property.
I was told by my surveyor that the guidelines were to check the service connection piping if the property was constructed prior to 1977 (and replace if they were lead- and if they were lead, to presume the rest of the piping was also).

IwFu

Why are you assuming I have failed to research and investigate this issue?
You assume I don't know anything lol.
I suggest Niall goes and does some research of his own.
I have written correspondence from the illustrious Irish Water clearly stating that there is STILL lead present in some mains in Ireland.
So <snip> or his information source is faulty.
I will also let you in on a secret.
Replacing pipes from a property to the stop cock does not remove the lead.
I have seen written evidence of this fact.
Maybe check out easily accessible websites such as the EPA for the history of lead in mains pipes.
You might learn something lads

degrassinoel

@ TC - (cant quote sorry, it just up and fails each time on this) 


Yep, that's where the meters are installed, and it's the only point where sufficient damage could have been caused to contaminate the water. I'm not a plumber but if one installation damaged a pipe enough would that also contaminate other's (neighbours) water supplies?
 
Like i said, a lot of old housing estates (built prior to 1977 as you said) had these lead service connection pipes. 
Surely IW knew about this and the health risks involved before meter installations started. 

And if they did, why haven't they contacted and informed the affected estates? 

king_of_inismac

Your statements above make no sense. How would IW installing a meter in pre-existing piping cause an increase in lead content in your water. 

Your statement is as logical as saying:
Michael D becomes president;
The water becomes contaminated with lead directly because of this. 
Michael D refuses to accept responsibility. 

The part that's missing is how Michael D becoming president (or IW installing a meter) could possibly increase the lead content of your water. 

The simplest answer is usually the right one. If you've lead piping in your house, the lead is probably (and logically) coming from there. 

IwFu

king_of_inismac wrote: »

Your statements above make no sense. How would IW installing a meter in pre-existing piping cause an increase in lead content in your water. 

Your statement is as logical as saying:
Michael D becomes president;
The water becomes contaminated with lead directly because of this. 
Michael D refuses to accept responsibility. 

The part that's missing is how Michael D becoming president (or IW installing a meter) could possibly increase the lead content of your water. 

The simplest answer is usually the right one. If you've lead piping in your house, the lead is probably (and logically) coming from there. 

So please explain how lead is still present in a house that has brand new pipes all the way out to the pipes that Irish water owns?
No lead pipes in the house.
But still tap water contaminated by lead.
I look forward to your explanation

king_of_inismac

IwFu wrote: »

king_of_inismac wrote: »

Your statements above make no sense. How would IW installing a meter in pre-existing piping cause an increase in lead content in your water. 

Your statement is as logical as saying:
Michael D becomes president;
The water becomes contaminated with lead directly because of this. 
Michael D refuses to accept responsibility. 

The part that's missing is how Michael D becoming president (or IW installing a meter) could possibly increase the lead content of your water. 

The simplest answer is usually the right one. If you've lead piping in your house, the lead is probably (and logically) coming from there. 

So please explain how lead is still present in a house that has brand new pipes all the way out to the pipes that Irish water owns?
No lead pipes in the house.
But still tap water contaminated by lead.
I look forward to your explanation

I can't explain it - but then again I can't explain ghosts, the loch ness monster and the tooth fairy.:)

You failed to mention that your house "had brand new pipes" or "no lead pipes" in your post before this, which makes me a little skeptical. 

What estate are you in? When was the estate built? 

my3cents

Does anyone know if there are any cast iron mains pipes still in use? These afaik would have been sealed with hot poured lead joints.

A change in water ph due to a change in the source could increase the amount of lead contained in the water, obviously provided there is a source of lead somewhere.

degrassinoel

king_of_inismac wrote: »

Your statements above make no sense. How would IW installing a meter in pre-existing piping cause an increase in lead content in your water. 

Your statement is as logical as saying:
Michael D becomes president;
The water becomes contaminated with lead directly because of this. 
Michael D refuses to accept responsibility. 

The part that's missing is how Michael D becoming president (or IW installing a meter) could possibly increase the lead content of your water. 

The simplest answer is usually the right one. If you've lead piping in your house, the lead is probably (and logically) coming from there. 

Wait, 
All of the houses in all of the old housing estates in Dublin at precisely the same time the meters were installed had a completely coincidental lead contamination issue and it wasn't from the installation of the meter in the lead pipe outside the propertyline?

is that what you're saying? 

my3cents

My brother in law in the UK suffered from Aluminium poisoning in the infamous Camelford incident. Strange stuff does happen and just look at the initial response to that incident. 

king_of_inismac

degrassinoel wrote: »

Wait, 
All of the houses in all of the old housing estates in Dublin at precisely the same time the meters were installed had a completely coincidental lead contamination issue and it wasn't from the installation of the meter in the lead pipe outside the propertyline?

is that what you're saying? 

What I'm saying is temporality is just one element of proof (if we accept that lead levels increased after installation of metres). Scientific plausibility is another requirement of proof.

The point I'm making is its not enough to say lead levels increased after installing metres. Lead levels also increased after Michael D became president. How do you propose adding a meter to pre-existing pipes would increase lead content in your water supply?


If there's a mechanism there, then we can have a debate. As of yet, you haven't proposed a mechanism.

king_of_inismac

degrassinoel wrote: »

Wait, 
All of the houses in all of the old housing estates in Dublin at precisely the same time the meters were installed had a completely coincidental lead contamination issue and it wasn't from the installation of the meter in the lead pipe outside the propertyline?

is that what you're saying? 

I doubt all these houses were all testing their water annually. They may have tested it after they started paying IW, and then found the lead. Then they attributed to the installation of meters.

I don't doubt that they believe the meters caused it. I just don't think it is the case.

The_Conductor

I don't doubt Noel- apparently from Irish Water testing there is a strange cluster of properties in the Raheny area whose water has massively exceeded the 2013 safety levels (25 micrograms per litre of water). Since the original testing- the levels were lowered to a safe limit of 10 micrograms per litre- and in one extreme case, a property in the Raheny area- has a recorded lead level in excess of 800 micrograms per litre (just reading the FOI there- its startling). I think the Irish Times had an article on it a while back- if I can find a link I'll post it.

The_Conductor

Links:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/the-20-dublin-homes-with-the-highest-levels-of-lead-in-water-1.2199908

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/policy-due-on-lead-contamination-of-drinking-water-1.2199891

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-water-reveals-20-homes-5640821

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-homes-water-lead-contamination-2085223-May2015/

http://safewater.ie/the-20-dublin-homes-with-the-highest-levels-of-lead-in-water/

Something strange does seem to be apparent in the Raheny area.......

my3cents

Is it possible to test the water at the meter (is there some way of doing this without removing the meter) and compare that test to the water coming out the taps in the house?

degrassinoel

The_Conductor wrote: »

Links:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/the-20-dublin-homes-with-the-highest-levels-of-lead-in-water-1.2199908

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/policy-due-on-lead-contamination-of-drinking-water-1.2199891

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-water-reveals-20-homes-5640821

http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-homes-water-lead-contamination-2085223-May2015/

http://safewater.ie/the-20-dublin-homes-with-the-highest-levels-of-lead-in-water/

Something strange does seem to be apparent in the Raheny area.......

Cheers for that, i appreciate ye going out of your way to get those links  

IwFu

king_of_inismac wrote: »

I can't explain it - but then again I can't explain ghosts, the loch ness monster and the tooth fairy.:)

You failed to mention that your house "had brand new pipes" or "no lead pipes" in your post before this, which makes me a little skeptical. 

What estate are you in? When was the estate built? 

It shouldn't make a difference what I mention.
The fact is that I have lead contamination and it is not my fault.
Irish water have to take responsibility for the lead contamination.
Lead is classed as "toxic for reproduction" look it up. ECHA.
Irish water, as the 'owner' of the water system is responsible for removing the lead from the water no matter how it got there.

king_of_inismac

IwFu wrote: »

It shouldn't make a difference what I mention.
The fact is that I have lead contamination and it is not my fault.
Irish water have to take responsibility for the lead contamination.
Lead is classed as "toxic for reproduction" look it up. ECHA.
Irish water, as the 'owner' of the water system is responsible for removing the lead from the water no matter how it got there.

They are not responsible if the water is contaminated from pipes in your property. Since that is the most likely cause, you as the homeowner are most likely responsible.

Until you give me a good reason how Irish water might have polluted your water by simply installing a meter, this debate is going nowhere.

I don't have an issue with anyone protesting against IW (peacefully) but making unfounded allegations isn't helping anyone's cause.

seamus

IwFu wrote: »

king_of_inismac wrote: »

I can't explain it - but then again I can't explain ghosts, the loch ness monster and the tooth fairy.:)

You failed to mention that your house "had brand new pipes" or "no lead pipes" in your post before this, which makes me a little skeptical. 

What estate are you in? When was the estate built? 

It shouldn't make a difference what I mention.
The fact is that I have lead contamination and it is not my fault.
Irish water have to take responsibility for the lead contamination.
Lead is classed as "toxic for reproduction" look it up. ECHA.
Irish water, as the 'owner' of the water system is responsible for removing the lead from the water no matter how it got there.

Well of course it makes a difference. You can see why it would be suspicious that you failed to mention that you knew for a fact that your house was lead free, especially when you no doubt had this exact same discussion with the guy who came to test your water.

Also presumably he tested your water at your kitchen tap and not at the meter, so the issue may very well still lie within your property. If you had the piping replaced on your property, it's very possible that the plumber who did the work, didn't go all the way out to the property boundary, leaving you with some lead pipework under your garden. 
I would suggest you engage a different plumber to check the entire pipework for the presence of lead pipes. If he finds nothing, then you can justifiably blame (and claim from) Irish Water.

degrassinoel

king_of_inismac wrote: »

IwFu wrote: »

It shouldn't make a difference what I mention.
The fact is that I have lead contamination and it is not my fault.
Irish water have to take responsibility for the lead contamination.
Lead is classed as "toxic for reproduction" look it up. ECHA.
Irish water, as the 'owner' of the water system is responsible for removing the lead from the water no matter how it got there.

They are not responsible if the water is contaminated from pipes in your property. Since that is the most likely cause, you as the homeowner are most likely responsible.

Until you give me a good reason how Irish water might have polluted your water by simply installing a meter, this debate is going nowhere.

I don't have an issue with anyone protesting against IW (peacefully) but making unfounded allegations isn't helping anyone's cause.

Ye know, that goes ditto for you too. 

How do you know the homeowner is responsible? 

He's given his reasons, you just seem to want to argue on IW's side for the sake of it, you've provided no evidence to counter any claims here.  Not one mention of protesting was made until you brought it up, so what's that about? 

my3cents

I think if the home owner has tested the water at the only place they can test it - a tap in the house - then its up to Irish water to test the water at the meter and prove the home owner wrong. I don't think just issuing denials cuts it. I doubt its an IW problem but still up to them to prove it. 

king_of_inismac

degrassinoel wrote: »

Ye know, that goes ditto for you too. 

How do you know the homeowner is responsible? 

He's given his reasons, you just seem to want to argue on IW's side for the sake of it, you've provided no evidence to counter any claims here.  Not one mention of protesting was made until you brought it up, so what's that about? 

I don't know the homeowners responsible, but I'm also not making any accusations.

I'm only saying what is more likely, given the circumstances. I asked the poster to name his estate and when his house was built. When he does, maybe we can start moving from probabilities to facts.

I'm simply stating that meters don't cause lead contamination. Maybe you disagree?

degrassinoel

king_of_inismac wrote: »

degrassinoel wrote: »

Ye know, that goes ditto for you too. 

How do you know the homeowner is responsible? 

He's given his reasons, you just seem to want to argue on IW's side for the sake of it, you've provided no evidence to counter any claims here.  Not one mention of protesting was made until you brought it up, so what's that about? 

I don't know the homeowners responsible, but I'm also not making any accusations.

I'm only saying what is more likely, given the circumstances. I asked the poster to name his estate and when his house was built. When he does, maybe we can start moving from probabilities to facts.

I'm simply stating that meters don't cause lead contamination. Maybe you disagree?

Good, finally getting somewhere, 
So you don't know who's responsible but you say it's likely the homeowner, k fine.  I don't share that opinion and quite frankly i find it ridiculous. But each to their own. 

They could be valid questions if you were an IW rep and this reply was in an official capacity and continued in a PM. You should probably just assume the OP lives somewhere affected by high lead content in the drinking water, it's not really anyone's business except the OP and IW.

No, i dont think meters cause lead contamination, damage to lead pipes caused by the meter installation work does. If you lived in an area with a high content of lead in the water you might have a different opinion. Again, each to their own.  

Let me ask you something, 

Do you reckon that IW has a responsibility to bring the (100% real) health issue of high content lead in the drinking water to everyone that's in an affected area's attention?






 

The_Conductor

The problem is there will most probably be a denial that there is a lead issue in a particular area.
Once IW point their finger and show that none of the mains piping is lead- thereafter, its an issue for the homeowner.
Its quite unusual for lead service connections to have been used in residential housing (aside from anything else- the lifespan of such an arrangement would be far inferior to other options- and arguably it may have issues with high pressure or pressure fluctuations- that other connection types would not face.

Where service connections are lead- as has apparently happened in isolated cases (including much of Raheny, parts of Ranelagh, some of Lucan village and a few other select locations)- who is liable to replace them- IW or the householder?

You need the above answered- and action taken asap.

king_of_inismac

degrassinoel wrote: »

Good, finally getting somewhere, 
So you don't know who's responsible but you say it's likely the homeowner, k fine.  I don't share that opinion and quite frankly i find it ridiculous. But each to their own. 

They could be valid questions if you were an IW rep and this reply was in an official capacity and continued in a PM. You should probably just assume the OP lives somewhere affected by high lead content in the drinking water, it's not really anyone's business except the OP and IW.

No, i dont think meters cause lead contamination, damage to lead pipes caused by the meter installation work does. If you lived in an area with a high content of lead in the water you might have a different opinion. Again, each to their own.  

Let me ask you something, 

Do you reckon that IW has a responsibility to bring the (100% real) health issue of high content lead in the drinking water to everyone that's in an affected area's attention?


 

Do I think IW has a responsibility to provide uncontaminated drinking water - Yes

Do I think IW should listen to the concern of those living with high lead levels - Yes

But I was replying to posts which said that the installation of water meters caused an increase in lead levels. As an engineer, I simply don't believe that is the case.

I honestly hope you get your water problems resolved. I just don't think posts like the OP are helpful to your cause. They simply confuse the issue.

seamus

The_Conductor wrote: »

Where service connections are lead- as has apparently happened in isolated cases (including much of Raheny, parts of Ranelagh, some of Lucan village and a few other select locations)- who is liable to replace them- IW or the householder?

You need the above answered- and action taken asap.

The householder is liable. This is covered on the FAQ on the IW website and has been mentioned a number of times in national media.

Pipes inside the property's boundary are the responsibility of the homeowner. Pipes outside of it are Irish Water's responsibility.

Is there are a possibility that someone's meter is 2m from the property boundary and that section of pipe is lead? Yep; some shoddy building work has been carried out in this country and some council staff could have *wink* "accidentally" overlooked something when those estates were built in Raheny. 
But it's quite unlikely, and like I say the property owner should first ascertain that they have no lead pipes on their property and then Irish Water can investigate.

But I was replying to posts which said that the installation of water meters caused an increase in lead levels. As an engineer, I simply don't believe that is the case.

Going off on a tangent here and with little to no materials technology experience; a number of people were talking about removing their meter and filling the hole with concrete or another material to make life hard for IW. If one person went ahead and did this on an estate, using something high in lead, could they have contaminated the water supply for the entire area?

The_Conductor

Service connections- are outside the boundary- but encompass piping all the way into the property.
They would typically be both within and external to the private property.

my3cents

The simple expedient of running off enough water to flush the pipes before you use it normally reduces the level of lead in the water, yet the OP states that after running the water off from the tap for 20 minutes the lead level was still high. That indicates a possibility of an issue with the supply. If a test after the water has been left to stand in the pipes overnight is the same as one after the water has been flushed through the pipes is similar then that would point to the problem being with the supply.

I would doubt that if after running the water for 20 minutes a high level of lead would be caused by lead pipe on the customers side.

Irish Water: Allanah

Hi all,

Apologies for the delay in responding.

degrassinoel wrote: »

roughly 3 years back there was a DCC water test in my own home, the water was drinkable back then, the chap told me the reservoir it comes from and everything. if there was anything in it, it was well below the eu standard for safe drinking water.

The_Conductor wrote: »

I don't doubt Noel- apparently from Irish Water testing there is a strange cluster of properties in the Raheny area whose water has massively exceeded the 2013 safety levels (25 micrograms per litre of water). Since the original testing- the levels were lowered to a safe limit of 10 micrograms per litre- and in one extreme case, a property in the Raheny area- has a recorded lead level in excess of 800 micrograms per litre (just reading the FOI there- its startling). I think the Irish Times had an article on it a while back- if I can find a link I'll post it.

The issue of lead in drinking water is not a new issue. There are various documents and bodies that have been monitoring and reporting on this for some time EPA published reports, EPA/HSE Joint Position Papers and HSE FAQs. In addition since 25th December 2013, the limit for lead in drinking water has decreased from 25ug/L to 10ug/L. This means that many households and buildings that if previously tested would have been in compliance with the limits, are now at risk of exceeding this lower limit.

As a result of the metering programme, Irish Water were able to identify properties which indicates that there are lead connections into homes. For this reason, Irish Water are urging homeowners to check their pipes and take remedial action if required. Letters have been issued to customers who may be affected by this, and we have advised them of the necessary steps to take in which to remedy the matter.

degrassinoel wrote: »

@ TC - (cant quote sorry, it just up and fails each time on this)

Yep, that's where the meters are installed, and it's the only point where sufficient damage could have been caused to contaminate the water. I'm not a plumber but if one installation damaged a pipe enough would that also contaminate other's (neighbours) water supplies?

Like i said, a lot of old housing estates (built prior to 1977 as you said) had these lead service connection pipes.
Surely IW knew about this and the health risks involved before meter installations started.
And if they did, why haven't they contacted and informed the affected estates?

If this is something that you would like us to look into, please send a private message with the following details:

- Name;
- Address and
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my3cents wrote: »

Does anyone know if there are any cast iron mains pipes still in use? These afaik would have been sealed with hot poured lead joints.
A change in water ph due to a change in the source could increase the amount of lead contained in the water, obviously provided there is a source of lead somewhere.

We have some old cast iron pipes that may have external lead caulking, however the vast bulk of cast iron pipes have gasket joints. Monitoring of water throughout the distribution system shows negligible lead concentrations from all background sources. Lead concentrations arise from extended contact between water and lead and this is now solely from the supply pipes from the mains to the household tap.

my3cents wrote: »

Is it possible to test the water at the meter (is there some way of doing this without removing the meter) and compare that test to the water coming out the taps in the house?

To ensure compliance with Drinking Water Regulations, Irish Water undertakes a nationwide water quality monitoring programme where samples are routinely collected from the treatment plants, service reservoirs and randomly selected customer properties throughout Ireland. Please see: wtr.ie/_WaterQuality to view the water quality results in your area.

In relation to the suggestion that meter installation caused increased lead concentrations, the natural coating due to lime is proven not to be an effective barrier to lead solvency. The tests carried out bear this out, in that there is no discrepancy between metered and unmetered properties.

Orthophosphate dosing has proved to be effective in Britain, NI and areas of N America but has not been used up to now in Ireland. This is an option being considered by Irish Water as an interim measure, while lead continues to be present in large numbers of properties.

I hope this information helps.

Kind regards,
Allanah

aah yes

Those claiming about lead issues probably don't know about ...


1)  if you are going to get water tested, make sure you use an INAB (Irish National Accreditation Board) approved laboratory, ask for "Audit" test + LSI

2)  use sample bottles provided by an accredited lab

3)  take a sample at the garden tap and at kitchen cold tap

4)  ultimately if meter being fitted a sample taken at meter junction point direct off mains, comparable to your garden tap / kitchen cold tap

5)  run water for 5 minutes before taking sample

6)  ideally have a mobile service based INAB lab take sample for professional methods used, and for impartiality, no conflict of interest

7)  the same water coming from source feeding houses in the area should have a consistent source water figure for lead, check against other test points

8)  if source figure is lower than lowest detection limit say less than 1 or 2 parts per billion, or < 1 or 2 ug/L where 10 ug/L is limit, this is good

9)  if your kitchen cold tap shows a different figure than source water, or direct from meter unit or road mains pipe, ask yourself why ?

10) if Langelier (LSI) - langelier saturation index of your water is negative or aggressive or low pH below 6.5, you may be leaching metals off your own pipes

11) old soldered plumbing fittings and some lead alloys in taps and plumbing fixtures may leach minor levels of lead if water is aggressive / low pH / low LSI

12) do you have multiple source water feed into house, say rainwater for all house and mains for kitchen cold tap, and are testing from another tap ?

13) rainwater is aggressive by nature and has dissolved CO2 making it slightly carbonic acid or low pH, or low LSI, so can dissolve lead flashing off roofs

14) lead in the low parts per billion is extremely easy to filter using very low cost but effective filters such as "ion exchange" type K3 / K2 / K7 filters

15) once you determine if you have aggressive water / old soldered pipe joints / lead alloy fixtures / lead pipes, it is easy to deal with in the meantime

16) a quick fix to avoid lead pipe leaching, is fish a 3/8" flexible PVC tube through a lead service pipe to house and re-connect either end of 3/8" pipe

17) if pressure is okay 30 psi or over, the 3/8" PVC pipe will serve well until the lead pipe is removed and new 1/2" heavy duty hydrodare pipe is fitted

18) employees working for Irish Water are doing their very best against an overly hostile and political hot potato that has careered well out of control

19) those who voted for political parties who then made decisions as to the way water infrastructure in Ireland has developed, have collective responsibility

20) moving ahead over the next few decades, collectively the whole of the Irish population who vote for politicians, who then make infrastructural decisions, brings the whole issue around full circle as to a whole population collective responsibility issue regarding water, its not just about employed individuals of Irish Water, doing the best job they can do answering phones politely and giving their best and honest professional advice, its about joe public ultimately deciding what they want to do, the reality is that Ireland is moving forward towards a technically correct direction of metering like most countries in the western world, away from the past decades of infrastructural third world water chaos