Penalty Points on NI License changed to Irish License

Jayop

I've probably had 9/12 penalty points since the system came in but I've not had any in the last five or six years (got older, slowed down). I've always had a Northern Ireland license so the points didn't really effect me as they were before they decided to apply them to UK licenses too. Now I want to convert my license to an Irish one but I'm afraid to incase the points all transfer over in one go and put me off the road.

I seem to remember there being something on the letters to say that points on non national licenses were retained and would be applied to Irish licenses if you changed over, but I'm not sure if that's accurate or if that only happens during the 3 years in which the points are active.

If anyone can advise I'd be very grateful!

Thanks!

Jayop

Bumping this to see if anyone knows about it.

Del2005

They created a virtual Irish licence for you and applied the penalty points to that, but they don't become active till you get a real Irish licence and they are applied immediately. Transfer to an Irish licence and you're off the road straight away, if you have 12, or crazy insurance if 9.

Jayop

Del2005 wrote: »

They created a virtual Irish licence for you and applied the penalty points to that, but they don't become active till you get a real Irish licence and they are applied immediately. Transfer to an Irish licence and you're off the road straight away, if you have 12, or crazy insurance if 9.

So that's me stuck with a UK license for the rest of my life then. That's really stupid.

Do you have any link to an RSA website or anything with that info?

Jayop

Jayop wrote: »

. I've always had a Northern Ireland license so the points didn't really effect me as they were before they decided to apply them to UK licenses too.

They cant apply Irish points to your UK licence.

Jayop wrote: »

So that's me stuck with a UK license for the rest of my life then. That's really stupid.

Why not just keep the UK one there is no disadvantage to having one, insurance etc is the very same regardless.

Jayop

Nathalia Full Stomachache wrote: »

They cant apply Irish points to your UK licence.



Why not just keep the UK one there is no disadvantage to having one, insurance etc is the very same regardless.

I want to get a small motorbike for getting to and from work on dry days and it's not possible to get insurance in the south on a northern provisional bike license. I wanted to switch to the Irish license and do the bike test etc down here.

As for the insurance, I'm not certain anymore. My cousin lives in Athlone and has an NI license and when he was getting his renewal he put in Irish Full on one quote to check and the quote was a good bit less than when he went back and put in NI license.

challengemaster

There's nothing stopping you getting just an Irish bike licence.

slimjimmc

Jayop wrote: »

So that's me stuck with a UK license for the rest of my life then. That's really stupid.

Do you have any link to an RSA website or anything with that info?

Your NI licence number will be recorded and the penalty points applied to that record. The points only have force within Ireland so they won't affect your NI licence outside of Ireland.

Even with a foreign licence if you collect 12 points over a 3 year period then you will be banned from driving in Ireland. The Irish ban won't affect your NI licence nor be any problem for driving outside of the jurisdiction.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html

Do penalty points apply to all Irish driving licences?
Yes. Penalty points apply to both learner permits and full Irish driving licences. Penalty points also apply to drivers with foreign driving licences driving in Ireland. If someone is driving in Ireland on a foreign licence, a record is created for the purpose of recording penalty points. Where the driver accumulates 12 penalty points in a 3-year period they are disqualified from driving in Ireland.

http://www.garda.ie/FAQ/Default.aspx?FAQCategory=35#FAQ10391

I do not hold an Irish driving licence, will I still get penalty points?
Yes. Penalty points are recorded on the licence provided. Further information can be obtained from the Road Safety Authority Website

http://rsa.ie/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/

Any driver accumulating 12 penalty points within any given three-year period will be automatically disqualified from driving for six months. A lower threshold of 7 penalty points leading to disqualification applies to any driver taking out a first learner permit on or after 1 August 2014 while he or she drives under any learner permit and subsequently during the first two years while he or she is driving under a full driving licence. Where a driver has a foreign licence a record will be created and the penalty points recorded on that record.

The driver is required to surrender his/her Irish or foreign driving licence to the National Driver Licence Service within 10 days of disqualification commencing. It is an offence not to surrender a licence. It is also an offence to drive while disqualified.

Jayop

challengemaster wrote: »

There's nothing stopping you getting just an Irish bike licence.

I never thought of that. Would I be able to hold the UK car and the Irish bike concurrently then?

My worry with that if possible is that it wont recognise my car driving experience (not sure if that counts for anything when getting bike insurance).

Fred Swanson

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Jayop

slimjimmc wrote: »

Your NI licence number will be recorded and the penalty points applied to that record. The points only have force within Ireland so they won't affect your NI licence outside of Ireland.

Even with a foreign licence if you collect 12 points over a 3 year period then you will be banned from driving in Ireland. The Irish ban won't affect your NI licence nor be any problem for driving outside of the jurisdiction.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html


http://www.garda.ie/FAQ/Default.aspx?FAQCategory=35#FAQ10391


http://rsa.ie/RSA/Licensed-Drivers/Penalty-points/How-it-works-why-it-matters/

Thanks for that!

It's been at least 6 years since I last got points but it still means I can't convert to an Irish license without getting those bundled on me again according to Del2005.

Fred Swanson

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Jayop

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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So that's a non runner then.

Fred Swanson

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slimjimmc

Jayop wrote: »

it's not possible to get insurance in the south on a northern provisional bike license.

That's because a provisional licence/learner permit is not valid outside of the country of issue. If you drive outside of the UK on a provisional licence then you are driving without a licence.

challengemaster

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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And why/how would they force you to surrender a NI Car licence they don't even know about when you're looking for a first time ROI bike licence?

Fred Swanson

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RecordStraight

Jayop wrote: »

As for the insurance, I'm not certain anymore. My cousin lives in Athlone and has an NI license and when he was getting his renewal he put in Irish Full on one quote to check and the quote was a good bit less than when he went back and put in NI license.

I wonder is that loading to allow for exactly people like you who have points for speeding or dangerous driving on a foreign licence?

Jayop

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I literally can't find anything anywhere on the internet about that to figure out where exactly the law stands. My understanding of it was pretty much what Del said before but there's no info readily available.

slimjimmc wrote: »

That's because a provisional licence/learner permit is not valid outside of the country of issue. If you drive outside of the UK on a provisional licence then you are driving without a licence.

Makes sense. So even if I got my UK provisional and insured it in the north I still couldn't ride down here.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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How would they know I have one?

Fred Swanson

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Jayop

RecordStraight wrote: »

I wonder is that loading to allow for exactly people like you who have points for speeding or dangerous driving on a foreign licence?

To be fair I've been done speeding a couple of time but none of them were mental fast and none of them have been in the last 6 years. I can remember two of them but not the third (possibly fourth).

1 was on the dual carriageway into Sligo. It's built 100% to motorway spec and I was doing 127kmph. Too fast but not crazy, was also on the way to hospital for an emergency with my child.

2 was though a 50 zone where I didn't slow down early enough quick enough. I was clocked just over 60 and the Guard even said I had slowed down more but not before the sign.

Hardly the work of a speed demon.

Jayop

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Looks like to only realistic solution unless I could get a definitive answer on the points issue.

slimjimmc

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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I don't see why not, there's no international law against it afaik. Any Garda can seize a foreign licence if he suspects the driver is disqualified or the licence is a dud so I reckon a similar authority applies to the disqualification process.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0025/sec0060.html

Imo it's similar to a foreign passport holder being ordered to surrender his/her passport in criminal cases.

Fred Swanson

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challengemaster

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Yes, if you have a full IRISH licence. That's because the person already has a driver number associated with their identity. The OP is not in the system, and has no driver number in the ROI system. Hence they are applying as if they do not hold any licence and it is their first learner permit.

Where it is your first application for a learner Permit you must submit:
A fully completed NDLS "Application Form for a Learner Permit D201"
The appropriate fee, €35
A completed NDLS Eyesight report form D502 dated within one month of application
Theory Test certificate which must be issued within two years of the date of application
Documentation to verify your identity
Documentation to verify your residency entitlement
Documentation to verify your PPSN
A completed NDLS Medical report form dated within one month of application if required in your case . For further details on when a medical report is required please click here.
Evidence of address

Jayop

challengemaster wrote: »

Yes, if you have a full IRISH licence. That's because the person already has a driver number associated with their identity. The OP is not in the system, and has no driver number in the ROI system. Hence they are applying as if they do not hold any licence and it is their first learner permit.

So getting a second license just for biking may be an option. I'll chat with a mate of mine who's a Guard to see if he's any the wiser.

Even the citizen's information site which is normally the clearest for Gov information is cloudy about this. Here's all they say regarding points on foreign licenses.

Driving offences committed in other jurisdictions
Penalty points and endorsements on driving licences acquired in other states (including EU/EEA member states) are not recognised in Ireland. This is because these penalties have been issued by courts in other jurisdictions. In practice, this means that if you acquired penalty points or an endorsement on a driving licence before coming to Ireland, these penalty points or endorsements do not transfer over to an Irish driving licence. If, however, you have been banned from driving in another jurisdiction (for example, for drink driving) it may not be possible for you to exchange your existing licence for an Irish driving licence.

If you are driving on a foreign driving licence in Ireland and acquire penalty points here, you will receive the normal statutory fine and a record will be created to record the penalty points. If you accumulate 12 penalty points in a 3-year period you are disqualified from driving in Ireland.

No mention of them being carried over if you apply for an Irish license.

Jayop

I've sent an email to the RSA to ask them to clarify.

Hi,

I'm trying to find out if someone converts a UK driving license to an Irish license will penalty points that were awarded 5/6 years ago in Ireland be applied to the new Irish license even though they are past their expiry date?

Thanks in advance!

challengemaster

Jayop wrote: »

I've sent an email to the RSA to ask them to clarify.

Hi,

I'm trying to find out if someone converts a UK driving license to an Irish license will penalty points that were awarded 5/6 years ago in Ireland be applied to the new Irish license even though they are past their expiry date?

Thanks in advance!

I'm almost certain that they aren't past their expiry date because they can't be applied until you have an Irish licence. So they just sit there on a "virtual" licence until you get an Irish one. Once you do, they kick in and expire 3 years from the date you get your Irish licence.

RecordStraight

Jayop wrote: »

To be fair I've been done speeding a couple of time but none of them were mental fast and none of them have been in the last 6 years. I can remember two of them but not the third (possibly fourth).

1 was on the dual carriageway into Sligo. It's built 100% to motorway spec and I was doing 127kmph. Too fast but not crazy, was also on the way to hospital for an emergency with my child.

2 was though a 50 zone where I didn't slow down early enough quick enough. I was clocked just over 60 and the Guard even said I had slowed down more but not before the sign.

Hardly the work of a speed demon.

I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying that if there's a loophole where people can run up points that don't appear on their licence in a certain jurisdiction, it can make it hard for insurers to correctly weight the policy of someone holding a foreign licence (I have one myself). Therefore they might be forced to slightly increase the charge to everyone with a foreign licence to allow for the minority that have these 'hidden points' that suggest a history of more risky driving.

Jayop

challengemaster wrote: »

I'm almost certain that they aren't past their expiry date because they can't be applied until you have an Irish licence. So they just sit there on a "virtual" licence until you get an Irish one. Once you do, they kick in and expire 3 years from the date you get your Irish licence.

Which leaves me completely screwed unless I go down the route of trying to get separate licenses which I'd prefer not to do as it's messy as hell.

I may have to get the NI provisional, buy a bike up there and leave it up there going up to practice as much as humanly possible then do the full test ASAP. I can't imagine the test would be mentally difficult for someone with 13 years car driving experience.

Jayop

RecordStraight wrote: »

I'm not attacking you, I'm just saying that if there's a loophole where people can run up points that don't appear on their licence in a certain jurisdiction, it can make it hard for insurers to correctly weight the policy of someone holding a foreign licence (I have one myself). Therefore they might be forced to slightly increase the charge to everyone with a foreign licence to allow for the minority that have these 'hidden points' that suggest a history of more risky driving.

Fair enough. It seemed a bit more of an attack but put like that it makes sense (unfortunately).

I just find it absolutely mental that despite having a clean license for years I can't get an Irish license for fear of being put off the road for things that happened years ago. Makes no sense to me that with the system they have it makes it impossible for me to legitimise my Irish driving. :mad:

RecordStraight

Jayop wrote: »

Fair enough. It seemed a bit more of an attack but put like that it makes sense (unfortunately).

Apologies, I should know by now that tone does not translate well in text...

Jayop

RecordStraight wrote: »

Apologies, I should know by now that tone does not translate well in text...

haha. I had actually typed out a much narkier reply to your first post but deleted it thank god!

Yeah after years and literally close to 100k posts on forums you'd think I'd learn how to pick up on things better.

Kristopherus

challengemaster wrote: »

I'm almost certain that they aren't past their expiry date because they can't be applied until you have an Irish licence. So they just sit there on a "virtual" licence until you get an Irish one. Once you do, they kick in and expire 3 years from the date you get your Irish licence.

How long do penalty points remain in force in UK/NI? Do they expire after 3 yrs like here? And if they do, why would they transfer to a new Irish licence?

challengemaster

Kristopherus wrote: »

How long do penalty points remain in force in UK/NI? Do they expire after 3 yrs like here? And if they do, why would they transfer to a new Irish licence?

Penalty points earned by someone with a UK licence in Ireland cannot be put on the licence. Hence they're held on a virtual licence

Jayop

Kristopherus wrote: »

How long do penalty points remain in force in UK/NI? Do they expire after 3 yrs like here? And if they do, why would they transfer to a new Irish licence?

UK points do expire, but that's not the question. I've never got points in the the UK, only in Ireland. It's the Irish points I'm worried about.

gaiscioch

Jayop wrote: »

UK points do expire, but that's not the question. I've never got points in the the UK, only in Ireland. It's the Irish points I'm worried about.

I, too, am not getting this. You say you have not got any points in the past "5 or 6 years", but had perhaps 12 prior to that. Why would they not expire 3 years after you got them on your UK licence, just as they do if they were put on an Irish licence? Presumably despite getting them in Ireland the existence of these points increased your car insurance in another EU state, the UK? It would seem unfair that you're being punished twice for the same incidents.

Jayop

gaiscioch wrote: »

I, too, am not getting this. You say you have not got any points in the past "5 or 6 years", but had perhaps 12 prior to that. Why would they not expire 3 years after you got them on your UK licence, just as they do if they were put on an Irish licence? Presumably despite getting them in Ireland the existence of these points increased your car insurance in another EU state, the UK? It would seem unfair that you're being punished twice for the same incidents.

No, I've driven in Ireland all my time on the road in southern cars on southern insurance so they've not cost me anything other than the initial fine and a pain in the arse now. I never would have had any more than 1/2 sets at any time anyway.

slimjimmc

Jayop wrote: »

Which leaves me completely screwed unless I go down the route of trying to get separate licenses which I'd prefer not to do as it's messy as hell.

Don't think that'll work out the way you might want it.
You'll only ever be able to get an Irish Learner Permit while keeping the NI licence. Once you apply for an Irish full licence you will have to declare your NI licence number otherwise you would be holding 2 EU licences and that is not permitted. A licence is a licence, it doesn't matter that the Irish/NI licences are for a different category of vehicles.

Jayop

I might just give up on this plan altogether unless I get a good answer from the RSA.

Cheers for all the replies guys!!

challengemaster

slimjimmc wrote: »

Don't think that'll work out the way you might want it.
You'll only ever be able to get an Irish Learner Permit while keeping the NI licence. Once you apply for an Irish full licence you will have to declare your NI licence number otherwise you would be holding 2 EU licences and that is not permitted. A licence is a licence, it doesn't matter that the Irish/NI licences are for a different category of vehicles.

Or, once he passes the test and acquires an Irish bike licence, he could have the category added to his NI licence and forfeit his Irish one.

On a side note - any link to the legislation that says holding more than one EU licence is not permitted?

Jayop

I can't see anything about that online either after a quick scan.

All the info online seems US related.

slimjimmc

EU Directive 2006/126/EC (a recast of previous directives)

5.
(a) No person may hold more than one driving licence;
(b) A Member State shall refuse to issue a licence where it establishes that the applicant already holds a driving licence;
(c) Member States shall take the necessary measures pursuant to point (b). The necessary measures as regards the issue, replacement, renewal or exchange of a driving licence shall be to verify with other Member States where there are reasonable grounds to suspect that the applicant is already the holder of another driving licence;
(d) In order to facilitate the checks pursuant to point (b), Member States shall use the EU driving licence network once it is operational.

Fred Swanson

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Jayop

I bow to your superior googling ability good sir!

challengemaster

slimjimmc wrote: »

EU Directive 2006/126/EC (a recast of previous directives)

IIRC EU directives mean next to fup all unless they're actually integrated into our own laws. For example.... most directives in the last 10 years that haven't been implemented yet

sunnysoutheast

Just wondering - does a speeding conviction and fine (even though you don't get the points on a UK licence) - need to be declared when getting a quote for insurance? Is it a declareable event while a policy is in force?

Can't remember what my quote form said TBH!

Jayop

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Just wondering - does a speeding conviction and fine (even though you don't get the points on a UK licence) - need to be declared when getting a quote for insurance? Is it a declareable event while a policy is in force?

Can't remember what my quote form said TBH!

I hope not because I never mentioned them.

Del2005

Jayop wrote: »

Do you have any link to an RSA website or anything with that info?

Here

If someone is driving in Ireland on a foreign licence, the driver's details are held on a separate database for the purpose of recording penalty points. If that driver later applies for and obtains an Irish driving licence, the penalty points are then activated on that licence

challengemaster wrote: »

There's nothing stopping you getting just an Irish bike licence.

It's all on the same drivers number, the OP is either banned or getting huge insurance quotes whenever they convert to an Irish licence.

Jayop wrote: »

I want to get a small motorbike for getting to and from work on dry days and it's not possible to get insurance in the south on a northern provisional bike license. I wanted to switch to the Irish license and do the bike test etc down here.

You can do intensive training in the UK and get a licence in a few days and or you can ride a Moped by doing CBT, but if you're in anyway rural I'd avoid using a moped as they are too slow and you'll end up being bullied into the gutter unless you ride very assertively

Jayop

Del2005 wrote: »

Here





It's all on the same drivers number, the OP is either banned or getting huge insurance quotes whenever they convert to an Irish licence.




You can do intensive training in the UK and get a licence in a few days and or you can ride a Moped by doing CBT, but if you're in anyway rural I'd avoid using a moped as they are too slow and you'll end up being bullied into the gutter unless you ride very assertively

Thanks for that.

Yeah a moped is no food. Living in the country and I don't finish work till midnight so wouldn't fancy doing 15k on a scooter every night.

Theanswers

Did you get an answer regarding the points. I unbelievable points acquired years ago, can cause this type of trouble.