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Realistic Economy News thread

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,471 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Firefox11 wrote: »
    Does this mean we a back to the "shake you down for all the money you got" boom years? I see we have learned our lesson. ;)

    The realistic news is that Official Ireland, despite all the talk of moral hazard necessitating the bill being put on the shoulders of the Irish taxpayer, has learnt absolutely nothing. The good news is of course that Official Ireland is so great that not only did they have nothing to learn, they are actually touring the world offering their collective wisdom on speaking tours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Unless we introduce price caps for hotels I'm not exactly sure what we can do. There was great value to be had for stays in Ireland for a few years but starting to creep up again.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭Villa05


    K-9 wrote:
    There was great value to be had for stays in Ireland for a few years but starting to creep up again.

    For someone who lost my job and found another one on a bit less pay
    I am more fearfull of the "Recovery" than I was of the recession.

    How can we be so stupid in completely and utterly marching headlong into the identical mistakes of the past

    Einstein is looking down on us with his head in his hands saying "I told you so"

    Definition of stupid


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    K-9 wrote: »
    Unless we introduce price caps for hotels I'm not exactly sure what we can do. There was great value to be had for stays in Ireland for a few years but starting to creep up again.

    Indeed.
    Nothing more than simple realities of economics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Villa05 wrote: »
    For someone who lost my job and found another one on a bit less pay
    I am more fearfull of the "Recovery" than I was of the recession.

    How can we be so stupid in completely and utterly marching headlong into the identical mistakes of the past

    Einstein is looking down on us with his head in his hands saying "I told you so"

    Definition of stupid

    What identical mistakes of the past?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭Villa05


    ezra_pound wrote:
    What identical mistakes of the past?

    For starters and in summary.
    Allowing property to destroy our competiveness in an unsustainable manner, while other critical infrastructure is neglected.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Villa05 wrote: »
    For starters and in summary.
    Allowing property to destroy our competiveness in an unsustainable manner, while other critical infrastructure is neglected.

    One of the good aspects of the Celtic Tiger was the progress made in infrastructure, the issue was all those buses, trains and coaches pandered to a public that was delving more and more into car ownership.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    One of the good aspects of the Celtic Tiger was the progress made in infrastructure, the issue was all those buses, trains and coaches pandered to a public that was delving more and more into car ownership.

    different motor tax rates needed.
    add the cost of motor tax onto fuel.
    you drive more, you pay more for the roads

    a huge issue really is the cost base of the public transport system (wages) of both the frontline staff and especially the huge bloated management across the CIE companies


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭Villa05


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    One of the good aspects of the Celtic Tiger was the progress made in infrastructure, the issue was all those buses, trains and coaches pandered to a public that was delving more and more into car ownership.

    I could not disagree more

    The former largest employer in Limerick ran there own bus service - existing was inadequate
    High house prices pushed working people further and further away from there employment ensuring more cars, costs and still a jumbo mortgage. This lead to gridlock everywhere. People pushed away from where services are to areas that cant cope with increased population.

    The infrastructure provided during the bubble was (a) inadequate (b) built at extortionate cost (c) provided in areas of political strength rather than areas of need.
    Telecommunications company sold off and asset stripped.

    The Web Summit moved because
    Company organisers have long griped about the capital's creaking infrastructure, rollercoaster hotel stock and lack of transportation............

    Decoded, that means no gridlocked streets around suburban venues. It means no hoteliers who jack prices up from €75 to €600 for the week of the conference. And it means no more worrying about getting people around the city on time.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/its-not-you-its-us-why-web-summit-ditched-dublin-for-modern-lisbon-31554024.html

    The root cause's are Greed and Corruption
    When an event is on in a particular location in Ireland. The response is to jack up prices to extotionate levels to make a quick killing.
    Alternatively a business can use it as a business opportunity, hugely influential people arrive and they are fleeced returning to communicate their experiences to others.
    Had they been given a good value for money experience and returned to communicate this to there colleagues, think of the repeat and new business this could create.

    State contracts for public services and infrastructure are viewed as cash cows by Irish business. The price is extortionate and as a result we get very poor value for our investments.
    Very often companies associated with or close to politicians are involved in the contracts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,241 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Villa05 wrote: »



    The Web Summit moved because



    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/its-not-you-its-us-why-web-summit-ditched-dublin-for-modern-lisbon-31554024.html

    The root cause's are Greed and Corruption
    When an event is on in a particular location in Ireland. The response is to jack up prices to extotionate levels to make a quick killing.
    Alternatively a business can use it as a business opportunity, hugely influential people arrive and they are fleeced returning to communicate their experiences to others.
    Had they been given a good value for money experience and returned to communicate this to there colleagues, think of the repeat and new business this could create.

    State contracts for public services and infrastructure are viewed as cash cows by Irish business. The price is extortionate and as a result we get very poor value for our investments.
    Very often companies associated with or close to politicians are involved in the contracts.

    Not to condone it in anyway but this happens all over the world. I am currently in an area where the Superbowl will be held next February. The prices for hotels are insane next year and way outside stated rates. The same happened for the Olympics in London. Major conferences attract high hotel rates. The exact same will happen in Lisbon.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,485 ✭✭✭Villa05


    Damien360 wrote:
    Not to condone it in anyway but this happens all over the world. I am currently in an area where the Superbowl will be held next February. The prices for hotels are insane next year and way outside stated rates. The same happened for the Olympics in London. Major conferences attract high hotel rates. The exact same will happen in Lisbon.


    I understand that, but are prices increased from 75 to 600 per night. Is double or triple the original rate sufficient in such circumstances.

    This conference attracts well heeled and travelled people, who have clearly voiced their opinion that Dublin is not a place they wish to return to, with rip off hotel room rates one of the main reasons identified by the event organisers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,581 ✭✭✭creedp


    Rightwing wrote: »
    Indeed.
    Nothing more than simple realities of economics.

    Another example of why we need to privatise everything .. because you can be guaranteed that the market will screw you when you are most in need .. simples really


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Holding steady in the World Economic Forums competitiveness index for 2015-16

    http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2015-2016/economies/#indexId=GCI&economy=IRL


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Holding steady in the World Economic Forums competitiveness index for 2015-16

    http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-report-2015-2016/economies/#indexId=GCI&economy=IRL

    Jobsbridge, massaged figures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    JustTheOne wrote: »
    Jobsbridge, massaged figures.

    'Cept, nowt to do with jobsbridge


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,796 ✭✭✭Calibos


    'Cept, nowt to do with jobsbridge

    He also said massaged figures. We all know theres actually 500,000 on Jobsbridge. They just 'massaged' 2 zero's off the end. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,101 ✭✭✭Rightwing


    creedp wrote: »
    Another example of why we need to privatise everything .. because you can be guaranteed that the market will screw you when you are most in need .. simples really

    The market dictates prices, if these punters can't afford to pay good riddance to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    According to media reports, there is a housing shortage, especially in and around Dublin. However, according to builders/developers, house prices are not high enough to make it worth their while to build houses. Consequently, the government are considering using NAMA and special state building programs to make up the shortfall.

    If social demand for housing is enough to get houses built, then why are there so many desperately poor families in Africa living in small dwellings? The answer may come down to the governments access to credit. According to Robert Maxwell, wealth was all about access to credit. It ended badly for him and I think i will end badly for Ireland also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    It ended badly for him and I think i will end badly for Ireland also.

    Well. as you said before....
    Ireland and most first world countries on the path to third world status.
    I would speculate it will be before the end of 2018. I would be surprised if it took longer than that

    Just 3 years to go!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Well. as you said before....
    Just 3 years to go!!
    Indeed. I sincerely hope I am wrong.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Indeed. I sincerely hope I am wrong.

    I think you are! Even if we lost 90% of our wealth tomorrow. We would still probably be better than 80% of the world population.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Looks like house building is doing very well in Iceland now and its all due to inward investment (not borrowed money).

    http://icelandmag.visir.is/article/labour-shortage-looming-tourism-and-construction-industries-iceland

    http://icelandictimes.com/exciting/

    Here the government has to borrow to pay the developers their profit margin. How insane is that. Ireland should have let the banks fail.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Looks like house building is doing very well in Iceland now and its all due to inward investment (not borrowed money).

    http://icelandmag.visir.is/article/labour-shortage-looming-tourism-and-construction-industries-iceland

    http://icelandictimes.com/exciting/

    Here the government has to borrow to pay the developers their profit margin. How insane is that. Ireland should have let the banks fail.

    Iceland is still paying for burning its bondholders. Its credit rating is still pretty poor. Its also borrowing close to 6%. Versus our 1.6%. They might have saved some money on not paying back bondholders. But they are paying for when borrowing for money

    Would you happily told hundreds of thousands for Irish, than you have lost your saving? It would have damaged confidence in the banks for generations. Its just not what we do in Europe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    Iceland is still paying for burning its bondholders. Its credit rating is still pretty poor. Its also borrowing close to 6%. Versus our 1.6%. They might have saved some money on not paying back bondholders. But they are paying for when borrowing for money

    Would you happily told hundreds of thousands for Irish, than you have lost your saving? It would have damaged confidence in the banks for generations. Its just not what we do in Europe.
    Bailing out the banks in return for low interest rates was not a good idea. In any case, the low interest rates are largely facilitated by the EU policy of QE which will ultimately be highly inflationary - not least to interest rates.

    Even as a saver myself, I would rather have lost everything and later be refunded by the government (like they are doing in Iceland) than have the appalling mountain of bank debt dumped on me. In Iceland, the government was able to attend to the poor and destitute directly which is the opposite to what was done in the EU and US where the banks got all the money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Even as a saver myself, I would rather have lost everything and later be refunded by the government (like they are doing in Iceland) than have the appalling mountain of bank debt dumped on me.

    The cost of saving AIB & BOI was much cheaper than letting them die & refunding deposits layer.

    Irish people have over €90bn on deposit, almost all of it which is with the 2 big banks.

    Seems you are actually in favour of the state taking a larger burden to suit yourself?
    Odd.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    The cost of saving AIB & BOI was much cheaper than letting them die & refunding deposits layer.

    Irish people have over €90bn on deposit, almost all of it which is with the 2 big banks.

    Seems you are actually in favour of the state taking a larger burden to suit yourself?
    Odd.
    If the cost of saving AIB and BOI was cheaper than letting them fail, then they would not have failed. The shareholders and creditors stood to loose a lot more than 90 billion if all mortgage debt owed to those banks was written off as happened in Iceland.

    The real reason those banks were saved was to avoid short term economic and political turmoil. In other words, cowardice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    If the cost of saving AIB and BOI was cheaper than letting them fail, then they would not have failed. The shareholders and creditors stood to loose a lot more than 90 billion if all mortgage debt owed to those banks was written off as happened in Iceland.

    The real reason those banks were saved was to avoid short term economic and political turmoil. In other words, cowardice.

    Here is one you will like - the miraculous story of Iceland (that is, if you believe in miracles):


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/17/the-miraculous-story-of-iceland/

    Most interesting paragraph:

    "Iceland's recovery has become a myth wrapped in a legend inside a legend. It let its banks fail, slashed household debt, let its currency collapse, put capital controls in place—and now it's doing better than those countries that did austerity! In reality, Iceland let its banks fail for foreigners, wrote down household debt only after their laws had made it worse, had no choice but to watch the krona plummet, but, at the same time, tried to keep it from plunging too far by limiting how much money people could take out of the country . Oh, and it did more austerity than any country not named Greece. The truth is a more complicated place."

    More austerity than Ireland!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Bailing out the banks in return for low interest rates was not a good idea. In any case, the low interest rates are largely facilitated by the EU policy of QE which will ultimately be highly inflationary - not least to interest rates.

    Even as a saver myself, I would rather have lost everything and later be refunded by the government (like they are doing in Iceland) than have the appalling mountain of bank debt dumped on me. In Iceland, the government was able to attend to the poor and destitute directly which is the opposite to what was done in the EU and US where the banks got all the money.

    The whole point of QE is to create inflation. Look at the state of the Japenese economy. No inflation or deflation like we have destroys an Economy beyond repair. What good is controlling inflation(which isnt an issue), if we dont have Economic growth in the long term

    You are failling to see what an American version of a failed bank is. You would have had zero savings after it. It destroys long term confidence in Banks. There is thousands of Italian who dont trust the safety of their banks and have safety deposit boxes full of Cash in Switzerland. If there is no money in Banks, loans cant be created


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Godge wrote: »
    Here is one you will like - the miraculous story of Iceland (that is, if you believe in miracles):


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/17/the-miraculous-story-of-iceland/

    Most interesting paragraph:

    "Iceland's recovery has become a myth wrapped in a legend inside a legend. It let its banks fail, slashed household debt, let its currency collapse, put capital controls in place—and now it's doing better than those countries that did austerity! In reality, Iceland let its banks fail for foreigners, wrote down household debt only after their laws had made it worse, had no choice but to watch the krona plummet, but, at the same time, tried to keep it from plunging too far by limiting how much money people could take out of the country . Oh, and it did more austerity than any country not named Greece. The truth is a more complicated place."

    More austerity than Ireland!
    Despite all this, Iceland was right to let the banks fail. Ireland postponed the pain of letting its banks fail but the cost of doing so will be astronomical.
    The fact that Ireland has to borrow to supplement developers is one of the early indicators that Ireland was wrong to bail out its banks. Iceland`s booming construction sector fueled by inward investment shows they were right.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    The whole point of QE is to create inflation. Look at the state of the Japenese economy. No inflation or deflation like we have destroys an Economy beyond repair. What good is controlling inflation(which isnt an issue), if we dont have Economic growth in the long term

    You are failling to see what an American version of a failed bank is. You would have had zero savings after it. It destroys long term confidence in Banks. There is thousands of Italian who dont trust the safety of their banks and have safety deposit boxes full of Cash in Switzerland. If there is no money in Banks, loans cant be created
    The central banks are wrong. Inflation is not good it is bad. Consumers like prices to fall not rise. The only reason the central banks want the economy to have 2% inflation is because they think it will encourage more people to spend instead of save. That is not much of a plan.

    Money should be backed by gold or other commodities. Nothing is backing the Euro, Dollar, Yen or Sterling.


This discussion has been closed.
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