Episode 5x10: 'Mother's Mercy' - READERS thread

MrWalsh

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Even if he and his supporters (including Brienne) where aware of the illegitimacy of joffrey and his siblings they would have know the the rights of succession put both Stannis and Shireen ahead of him.

Yes, I was responding to this:

Conall Cernach wrote: »

Yes but Brienne knows, or at least believes, that they are not Robert's so she knows that Stannis is the rightful king following Robert in succession.

Brienne didnt allow the knowledge that Stannis is the rightful king in terms of succession stop her from supporting Renlys claim, so there is no reason to think why she should suddenly start supporting Stannis now.

PopePalpatine

I've seen plenty of complaints about how Myrcella succumbed to poison so close to shore. I vaguely remember her ship being visible from the dock she departed from, or am I just wrong there?

Peregrine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I've seen plenty of complaints about how Myrcella succumbed to poison so close to shore. I vaguely remember her ship being visible from the dock she departed from, or am I just wrong there?

It was visible alright but what are the complaints based on, that they could have went back?

There's no way the Sand Snakes would poison her with something that won't kill her quickly.

PopePalpatine

Nim wrote: »

It was visible alright but what are the complaints based on? That they could have went back?

Yep, that and Oberyn's line "we don't hurt little girls in Dorne".

FunLover18

Conall Cernach wrote:

She was also going on about Renly being the rightful king when she knows that Stannis was next in line if Cersei's children are not Robert's so maybe she'll realise she should have supported Stannis at the start.

I think she'll realise that her support of Renley was out of love and not duty. She goes on about honour in knights but she's constantly guided by her emotions, I think Stannis last words might give her a bit of cop on.

Duckworth_Luas

Stannis' last words to Brienne were "Go on, do your duty"

Brienne's first duty was to protect Renly and she failed. Next her duty was to get Jaime Lannister, who she continually referred to as "Kingslayer", to King's Landing in one piece and she failed. Then her duty was to return Arya Stark to safety and she failed.

Her current duty is to get Sansa Stark out of harm's way, so WTF is she doing seeking revenge for Renly's death.

Stannis' words reminded her of what she should be focussed on, saving Starks not becoming a Kingslayer. My hope is that Brienne hacked the tree out of frustration and let Stannis live.

Stannis has betrayed his family, his men and everything he once held dear. He is now left with no wife, no lands, no children, no crown and no glory. However, he can regain his honour as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.


But he's probably dead. :mad:

Duckworth_Luas

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Stannis' last words to Brienne were "Go on, do your duty"

Brienne's first duty was to protect Renly and she failed. Next her duty was to get Jaime Lannister, who she continually referred to as "Kingslayer", to King's Landing in one piece and she failed. Then her duty was to return Arya Stark to safety and she failed.

Her current duty is to get Sansa Stark out of harm's way, so WTF is she doing seeking revenge for Renly's death.

Stannis' words reminded her of what she should be focussed on, saving Starks not becoming a Kingslayer. My hope is that Brienne hacked the tree out of frustration and let Stannis live.

Stannis has betrayed his family, his men and everything he once held dear. He is now left with no wife, no lands, no children, no crown and no glory. However, he can regain his honour as the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.


But he's probably dead. :mad:

I don't think that would be a bad move at all for the show. There's obviously a vacancy for the L.C. position which will be filled for now by Thorne. However, Is Alliser Thorne the best man available to lead Westeros' first line of defence against the oncoming Whitewalkers and keep viewers engrossed in events up there? I don't think so myself.

Stannis might not be currently 'available', but I reckon that if he survived his encounter with Brienne then Castle Black is the first place he would go in search of Melisandre.

Wasn't Jon the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Alliser would likely assume the role upon Jon's 'death' and become L.C. number 999. Stannis Baratheon for 1000?

For the show, I do like that idea. Stannis definitely now fits the profile of the perfect candidate to become a member of the Night's Watch - unless he was hacked to death by Brienne of course.

celica00

Graham_B18C wrote: »

A few pages back people were asking about Daenerys' ring, my take on it was it could have been one of the things from Drogo's braid or something he gave her that she didn't want his gang to see. Could be way off but I reckon it's more likely than it being used to show Jorah and Daario where she's been.

I personally thought it was because she didnt want them to know she is "rich" or a queen.

I actually don't know if it was mentioned in the books since I forgot most of it ha so that's my own theory.

Duckworth_Luas

In another change from the books, the events surrounding Daenerys' ring just before encountering the Dothraki are slightly different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmKhGqWcJGY

5starpool

stankratz wrote: »

I don't think that would be a bad move at all for the show. There's obviously a vacancy for the L.C. position which will be filled for now by Thorne. However, Is Alliser Thorne the best man available to lead Westeros' first line of defence against the oncoming Whitewalkers and keep viewers engrossed in events up there? I don't think so myself.

Stannis might not be currently 'available', but I reckon that if he survived his encounter with Brienne then Castle Black is the first place he would go in search of Melisandre.

Wasn't Jon the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch? Alliser would likely assume the role upon Jon's 'death' and become L.C. number 999. Stannis Baratheon for 1000?

For the show, I do like that idea. Stannis definitely now fits the profile of the perfect candidate to become a member of the Night's Watch - unless he was hacked to death by Brienne of course.

If Jon does actually die then we have no one at the wall who would be the main character except at the minute Davos. Could he be so grief stricken at the death of Stannis (if he is dead) and Shireen that he joins the watch instead? It's not like we have any indication he is off to the Manderley's or wherever he is in the books.

Peregrine

When I watched it at first, I was sure Brienne killed Stannis but after watching it again and reading the arguments here, I'm coming around to the idea of her not killing him.

razorblunt

Nim wrote: »

When I watched it at first, I was sure Brienne killed Stannis but after watching it again and reading the arguments here, I'm coming around to the idea of her not killing him.

It doesn't make sense from a viewpoint of every other character either died onscreen or their body was shown later on, the Septa, the North lady to name a couple.
I think the Lord Commander is the ideal scenario.

jebidiah

Tenner bets Briene cut off Stannis's leg. It looked pretty mangled below the calf.

Do your duty. Cold till the end.

I watched a guy called Preston Jacobs post episode video. His most recent one is pretty good and theorizes that Stannis SENT his men away. To trick the boltons. I'd say it's a similar trick to Robb Stark way back when and could be a likely scenario.

PopePalpatine

I was reading through the Game of Thrones subreddit, and one redditor made the point that the North was really lacking this season in that the North really hasn't remembered.

Conall Cernach

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I was reading through the Game of Thrones subreddit, and one redditor made the point that the North was really lacking this season in that the North really hasn't remembered.

Most of the Northern lords are dead or held hostage so there aren't many fighting men around to rescue her.

PopePalpatine

I get what you're saying, but there was at least some resistance to the Boltons in the books (House Manderly, the mountain clans etc.).

LFC CONNAUGHTON

Although I would love for Jon and Stannis to still be alive it would feel like a bit of a cop out to have 2 fake deaths in one episode.

Dyr

jebidiah wrote: »

Tenner bets Briene cut off Stannis's leg. It looked pretty mangled below the calf.

Do your duty. Cold till the end.

I watched a guy called Preston Jacobs post episode video. His most recent one is pretty good and theorizes that Stannis SENT his men away. To trick the boltons. I'd say it's a similar trick to Robb Stark way back when and could be a likely scenario.

I dont think the writers are that subtle, plus Dillanes sterling "oh fook" acting moment would have been wasted

JJayoo

I think Stannis will offer his life and be burnt by the sexy witch in order to save Jon Snow and that Jon will have warged with the wolf after getting stabbed. So she will put his spirit back into his dead body which is how the white walkers were first created and that will lead to all kinds exciting adventures

spiralism

I've felt this for a while but it's quite clear that 10 hours a series is not enough for the sheer amount of depth that is in this story, even by editing the plot strongly. Liked the episode and the second half of the season in general but they struggled to keep plotlines moving throughout i felt.

Dorne a whole lot of nothing happened except they killed Myrcella off making the whole quest a shaggy dog story. It was like the TV equivalent of Brienne's storyline in AFFC. Trystane Martell left there on the boat so the Sand Snakes just sent the heir of Dorne off to be murdered immediately after by Jaime and ****ed into the sea.

Brienne did the square root of **** all for the entire season, bar being useless to Sansa. (Also, "in the name of Renly Baratheon, rightful king of the seven kingdoms"...uhh love, Renly was the younger brother.)

Littlefinger by and large the same, he cropped up from time to time

Olenna Tyrell another who featured little.

Some plots just drifted in and out, you'd see an episode being Kings Landing centric then would hardly see any of the capital for a couple of episodes, then likewise with Winterfell where you'd have an episode or two where it featured briefly, and another couple of episodes where very little of Arya is seen and so on. 5 mins attention to plot here and there made for frustrating plot development, to the point where at the end of the season there's nothing from the Tyrells or Littlefinger since episode 8.

Even 13 episodes a season would have given them a lot more breathing room in all honesty. It's an extremely complex story to say the very least and taking a massive edit hatchet to it has led to some stupid errors. They've stupidly scrimped on some small things that explain a lot, for example explaining that Cersei also armed the Faith to pay off a debt to the crown and that Jon Snow also allowed the wildlings through so able bodied fighters could man the seriously undermanned nights watch and re-open the closed forts. Literally explaining those would have taken two minutes each time. The latter especially is really important as book Jon retained the support of many, he has the wildling recruits on side as well as those who had always backed him. The show essentially cast it as the entire watch mutinying, were Melisandre to bring him back as speculated, it gives the distinct impression that he'd be just murdered again and they'd kill her along with him to make sure of it.

Also, it's off the point im trying to make but after all the talk beforehand about how Sansa would be different this season and how she'd deal with things differently and become more of a player in it all, they just leave her to be once again horrifically abused by a monster and needing to be saved.

Daith

spiralism wrote: »

Also, it's off the point im trying to make but after all the talk beforehand about how Sansa would be different this season and how she'd deal with things differently and become more of a player in it all, they just leave her to be once again horrifically abused by a monster and needing to be saved.

This is a key one. It's a change from the books and something I was looking forward to. There could have been more done with a Stark back at Winterfell.

Of course it could be a case that Sansa is just **** at playing the game though and can't learn. I suppose going toe to toe with Ramsey/Roose might be a bit too far though.

Thargor

God I hate Grey Worm, what a terrible actor and terrible casting, he's supposed to be the leader of the best fighters in the world and we get this young thicko who always says something stupid in his slow slurred speech and has to be corrected by the other characters, once you notice it you see it happens in every scene, its like he's an actual retard when he should be one of the best characters in it.

You can really tell when they drift from GRRMs writing, all the usual sloppy tv cliches start sneaking in, the dialogue in the throne room when Jorah/Darrio/Grey Worm/Tyrion etc were deciding what to do was just awful, same for Bronn and the sand Snake on the dock, "you like a bad cnut"? It didnt even make sense, absolutely zero chemistry between the 2 and why would there be when the writing is so bad.

Loved the walk of shame though, Qyburn is turning into my favourite character still alive aswell. I cannot wait to see Robert Strong at her trial.

MrWalsh

Thargor wrote: »

.... same for Bronn and the sand Snake on the dock, "you like a bad cnut"? It didnt even make sense, absolutely zero chemistry between the 2 and why would there be when the writing is so bad.

Ah come on, if youre going to laugh at the bad dialogue then at least get it right!

"You want a good girl but you need the bad pussy"

Truly odd, they could have at least given us a 10 second scene of the two of them in bed together for a line of dialogue like that to have had some context.

MarkR

Yeah, they didn't really have time to bond. She flashed her tits (no complaints here), had him sing, gave him an antidote, and that's pretty much it.

I'd be more annoyed at Davos not getting a proper goodbye to/from Stannis if he is dead. Given how much they telegraph things in the show the lack of that would give me optimism he's not dead.

What did Shireen and Selyse actually add to the show given they went to such pains to reintroduce them after dropping them? A reason to hate Stannis? Selyse is the horrible one in the books and she comes out of it looking rosy. It's things like that that would make me think that there's no real planning going on past 1 or 2 seasons time.

Mr Freeze

I think Stannis is dead.

The show tend to keep actors/characters they like around a lot longer, Bronn for example.

Why would they keep Stannis around another season or two after they have changed/ruined the character so much.

The show writers hate Stannis. They made Stannis the villain and now they killed their baddie off.

Thargor

Oh yeah, the thing I came in here to post and forgot about:

In the books Jon gets stabbed by his brothers because he was going to ride out and attack Ramsay with the Watch after the pink letter, that was a righteous act by the Nights Watch and something that makes GRRMs writing kind of unique compared to other fantasy writers... But why was he killed here? For a few hundred Wildlings settled in The Gift? Didn't the army of the dead at Hardhome change their opinions slightly? Why even open the gate for them if they're so repulsed by it that they'd mutiny and murder a Lord Commander? It doesn't make any sense...

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

The show writers hate Stannis. They made Stannis the villain and now they killed their baddie off.

Using shadow babies to kill your brother hardly makes you a hero. He had no problem burning other people alive too.
Ramsay is the real villain at the minute.

Thargor wrote: »

But why was he killed here? For a few hundred Wildlings settled in The Gift? Didn't the army of the dead at Hardhome change their opinions slightly?

Sure, Jon got a bunch of Nights Watch killed by an undead army in order to save some wildlings. He put Wildlings before his brothers.

OneOfThem Stumbled

Sam: And so after that Ghost appeared. and long story short, cherry is popped.
John: Wait, what happened to Ghost?
Sam: He faded out of existence, like he did when you got captured by the wildlings. Nothing to hint that he existed besides a scrap of paper entitled "CGI Invoice".
John: ... and what do you mean cherry -popped?
Sam: You know. [winks]
John: [laughs] you copped off?
Sam: Well, yeah.
John: I hate to do this Sam, but you broke your vows. Olly, my sword.
[Olly runs up to John with sword, followed by gang who start stabbing John]
John: Why you do this? Guys staph. Does no-one take vows seriously around here? Ah, a friendly face [Olly stands before John] ... Olly.
[Olly stabs John. John falls onto ground and starts bleeding out]
John: Olly... Olly...
Gang: Oi oi oi.
Thorne: And now we are safe from the wildlings.
Sam: Which ones? The 10s of thousands of undead ones at the other side of the wall, or the 5,000 this side who will be pretty hostile to the people who killed their lord commander because of his friendliness to wildlings.
Thorne: Seven hells I forgot I let them through. Thonemond bowl get hype.
Gang: meh.



Myranda: We need you alive so Ramsay can have a son. But he doesn't need all of you for that.
Sansa: Why?
Myranda: Don't be dense, he means to control the north.
Sansa: By having a son?
Myranda: Yes
Sansa: But he married me. If I were to die, he'd get it by default. And he would be wise to kill me.
Myranda: Why?
Sansa: Because I'm here. For revenge.
Myranda: Huh?
Sansa: I am here for revenge. I knew what Ramsay was before coming here: what he was and what he did. I will not stop until I have that candle lit in that tower. You guys have got it coming to you. I will have escaped and Ramsay will kill himself from loneliness.
Myranda: Kill himself?
Sansa: Probably by jumping off of the walls or something. That's certain death. Oh yes... I prepared well before coming here. Even though the candle thing was actually suggested by a woman who is now dead, who in turn was told to do so by a woman in full armour whom I told to piss off and almost got killed by Vale knights. Oh I am a political schemer as good as they come.
Reek: At least you didn't tell your plan to Littlefinger's brothel manager. Now *that* would have been stupid.

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

Using shadow babies to kill your brother hardly makes you a hero. He had no problem burning other people alive too.
Ramsay is the real villain at the minute.

I never called him a hero.

Its Game of Thrones, there are no heroes. :pac:

But I do defend his killing of Renly. Renly had no claim and split the Baratheon supporters and weakened Stannis' support by half. Renly was intent in meeting Stannis in battle, so killing him before any battle and saving losses to both armies was a good move, as a lot of those men joined Stannis. ( but granted they later shat themselves at the Blackwater when they saw the "Ghost of Renly").