Now that's what I'm torquing about....

fillup

I'm looking to buy a torque wrench but can't justify the €130 for a nice snazzy Park Tools one

Has anyone used this one and, if you have, is the calibration correct on it?

50 blips seems like a reasonable piece but I'm afraid of the auld buy cheap buy twice trap

Cheers

youtheman

Rose is a very reputable company, so I'd have no problems using that wrench. Remember two important things about using such a device:
1. always re-set the wrench to zero when you are finished with it. If you leave the spring under tension for a prolonged period then it will become weak and give you an error.
2. any torque figure is subject to a 'lubrication factor' (if you are using oil). So make sure the figure you are applying is for 'dry' (no oil) or for the appropriate oil. You can over/under torque by several orders of magnitude if you get this wrong.

Leroy42

Slightly OT, but was also wondering about a torque wrench. Even €50 is a bit of dosh. Are they really necessary? I have been using carbon frames for last few years and never had a problem with any of my stuff.

No, of course I'm far from elite so am not pushing the components to anywhere near there level, but I have travelling quite a bit with the bike which has meant lots of tightening/untightening of handlebars, pedals, crankarms etc. Never used a torque wrench and nothing has ever fallen off or snapped. Maybe I'm too weak to ever over tighten them!!!

But, is overtightening really an issue as is this just a nice to have item?

jamesd

Good wrench - I got it last year at €45 and use it on stems and bits here I do not want to go over tight.

Lumen

Leroy42 wrote: »

Slightly OT, but was also wondering about a torque wrench. Even €50 is a bit of dosh. Are they really necessary?

For almost everything thhat hangs off a frame, a short allen key and a bit of mechanical sympathy works fine.

The only exception I can think of is cranksets. I can't reliably feel 50Nm or whatever. I guess I could get a 25kg child to hang off the end of a 20cm wrench, but what if the child is 30kg or the wrench is 25cm? Do I need to attach helium balloons to the child?

seamus

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/x-tools-torque-wrench-2-24n-m/rp-prod11142

Great little torque wrench, I'm very happy with mine.

mirrormatrix

Lumen wrote: »

For almost everything thhat hangs off a frame, a short allen key and a bit of mechanical sympathy works fine.

The only exception I can think of is cranksets. I can't reliably feel 50Nm or whatever. I guess I could get a 25kg child to hang off the end of a 20cm wrench, but what if the child is 30kg or the wrench is 25cm? Do I need to attach helium balloons to the child?

Is crankset torque really all that important? I ask because i'm about to launch into changing my hollowtech BB and was just planning on doing up the pinch bolts by feel. I've watched a few how-to videos and none of them use a torque wrench. I think i saw Sheldon or some other website say describe 50Nm as "bastard tight", so was basically planning on tightening the pinch bolts as tight as I could physically get them.

What could potentially happen if you do up the pinch bolts too tight?

cython

The Rose one seems to come with bits where the X-Tools one does not - relevance of this obviously depends on what the purchaser may have already in terms of tools!

Wiggle also seem to have what looks like a rebadged version of the Rose set, and if Rose charge shipping then it might be slightly cheaper.

joey100

What could potentially happen if you do up the pinch bolts too tight?

Unfortunately I've done this on a rotor crank, it's a lot lower than 50NM for their pinch bolt, think it's around 6NM. Crank had to be sent back to Rotor, they use an unusual bolt for their cranks. Crank needed to be rethreaded and new bolt needed too. Crank was gone for about 10 days and cost about 50 euro.

Never done it with a shimano crank but I'd say it's something similar, probably end up sheering the threads in the crank and need a new crank.

Just thinking we might be talking about different things, I'm talking about the bolt that holds the (usually) left hand crank on.

mirrormatrix

joey100 wrote: »

Just thinking we might be talking about different things, I'm talking about the bolt that holds the (usually) left hand crank on.

Cheers, yeah we're talking about the same thing I think? On hollowtech cranks, there's two pinch bolts at the base of the left crank arm which clamp it onto the crankshaft connected to the right crank - if that makes sense.

It just seems like an expensive bit of kit so I was being tight fisted (although that rose one is pretty reasonable given that you get the bits with it as well). I had also heard that most torque wrenches are basically useless after a few months as they all go off and there's no way of re-calibrating them.

el tel

On carbon fibre composite frames you don't really need a torque wrench, especially with things like seat clamps and carbon stems and bars. The tell-take "crack" you hear when you've overtightened something is the real give away, in which case just give a quarter turn in the opposite direction and you're grand. Alternatively, stop tightening just before the "crack" happens.

:pac:

nordicb

I would recommend getting the wrench, peace of mind when done right.
Doubt anyone would feel difference between 4 and 10Nm or similar and the result is a sheared thread or things not tight enough. Most parts are aluminum!

Shops don't use it because it's time consuming and, perhaps, they don't really care.

2-24 won't cover all ranges the bike uses, so it is usually 2 keys, unfortunately...

fillup

mirrormatrix wrote: »

. I had also heard that most torque wrenches are basically useless after a few months as they all go off and there's no way of re-calibrating them.

Anybody any info/views on this?

Leroy42

nordicb wrote: »

Shops don't use it because it's time consuming and, perhaps, they don't really care.

See, this is the bit that confuses me. Shops tend not to use them. Most of the youtube videos I have seen don't use them. Whether they care or not, no bike shop will want to break a frame.

IMO, it's just another piece or kit which is not really needed but people have been convinced, without any real evidence, that the problem exists.

Of course there have been instances of overtighening leading to failure, but is it a big problem?

fillup

nordicb wrote: »

Shops don't use it because it's time consuming and, perhaps, they don't really care.

I know the lads in 360 Cycles use them but they're pretty fastidious and may be the exception

seamus

Leroy42 wrote: »

IMO, it's just another piece or kit which is not really needed but people have been convinced, without any real evidence, that the problem exists.

Of course there have been instances of overtighening leading to failure, but is it a big problem?

For me it provides a certain amount of surety. It would always be a concern for me when tightening bars, for example, that I have them tight enough, and have in the past compressed bars by overtightening them. Hammering down towards Manor Kilbride from Sallygap I have a couple of times crossed my fingers a little bit that I didn't undertighten anything the last time I was working on the bike.

So by having a torque wrench and sticking with the guidance provided by the manufacturer, I can be happy that my bars won't slip, but also aren't overtightened.

If you work in a bike shop and fit ten sets of bars a week, you probably learn to gauge the appropriate tightness pretty quickly so won't need a torque wrench.

nordicb

Leroy42 wrote: »

See, this is the bit that confuses me. Shops tend not to use them. Most of the youtube videos I have seen don't use them. Whether they care or not, no bike shop will want to break a frame.

IMO, it's just another piece or kit which is not really needed but people have been convinced, without any real evidence, that the problem exists.

Of course there have been instances of overtighening leading to failure, but is it a big problem?

I use them on my car, engine repairs, etc, so bike is no exception. But then again, just for bike it may be an expensive investment. Like all wrenches, more expensive ones just wear better if you need to torque 100 items per day, if not then you should be just fine with the inexpensive one imho.

But then again, many garages torque everything with the air wrench, and not uncommon, after few repairs some items cannot be undone or cannot be refitted, end user doesn't know about it obviously.

Bike manufacturers do not print torque specs on items just for fun...

mcgratheoin

Any thoughts on the Canyon one? I used it to set up my bike and it seems to be pretty idiot proof.

https://www.canyon.com/en/accessories/#category=Z15&id=32914

fillup

I've done a wee google on the need to re-calibrate them and apparently it's recommended on an annual basis

So does anyone get theirs re-calibrated?

And if so, how and at what cost (if they get someone else to do it)?

cheers

nordicb

I've never heard anyone doing it tbh, especially for those used at home.

If you have noticed, on bikes they usually state Max torque, so turning the wrench down a notch works fine. For example, Max 5.6Nm, I would torque it to 4.5. However, on the cassette it says exactly 40Nm, so I set it to 40.

Some wrenches may not click clearly or if held in a funny way, so at all times general sense should be used.

fillup

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Any thoughts on the Canyon one? I used it to set up my bike and it seems to be pretty idiot proof.

https://www.canyon.com/en/accessories/#category=Z15&id=32914

How does that one work? what happens when you hit the required torque?

nordicb

fillup wrote: »

How does that one work? what happens when you hit the required torque?

When tightening the shaft twists and the needle points at the dial how much torque has been reached. They are simple and reliable, but the range is small.

Alek

but the range is small.

3 to 12 Nm

This range is perfectly sufficient for most bolts on the bike I use one made by Topeak and find it great:

http://www.topeak.com/products/Homeshop-Tools/combotorq_bit_set

Cee-Jay-Cee

I bought a LifeLine wrench from wiggle with the socket Allen keys in the box. For seat clamps and stems I torque them to the recommended tightness and then with a regular Allen key loosen them slightly and retighten to the same position just to get a feel of what 6 or 7Nm feels like by hand. I rarely use the torque wrench now unless it's something lower or higher.

JBokeh

fillup wrote: »

Anybody any info/views on this?

Some torque wrenches you buy will come with a calibration cert that says that it was calibrated to within ± X% of indicated torque, and that it is good for so many clicks or a set period of time provided it is used correctly, and it is stored using the correct procedure

There is companies that offer calibration services for equipment used in industry, such as torque wrenches and screwdrivers and they will test it and re-calibrate it if necessary using the trim screw on the body of it. Lord knows how much it costs for this but I know this exists.

For stuff I use at home I'd never bother getting it calibrated, I just store it right, and i've never stripped a bolt with it, from everything from cylinder heads to cassette lock rings

dastardly00

I got this torque wrench from Bike-discount.de a few months ago.
€36.90 + €7.95 for shipping.

I haven't used it a huge amount so far, so I don't feel I can comment on how good it is.

fillup

Some great advice and recommendations there lads, thanks.

cython

dastardly00 wrote: »

I got this torque wrench from Bike-discount.de a few months ago.
€36.90 + €7.95 for shipping.

I haven't used it a huge amount so far, so I don't feel I can comment on how good it is.

looks like the same wrench as wiggle and rose but under yet another marque!

Cee-Jay-Cee

cython wrote: »

looks like the same wrench as wiggle and rose but under yet another marque!

That looks identical to the LifeLine one I bought. They're all made in the same factory in Taiwan and simply labeled by the various brands/companies.

doozerie

Whether a torque wrench is *necessary* is very subjective. Personally, I use them and find them useful but I don't think they are actually necessary. And I also wonder how many people that use torque wrenches actually use them correctly, me included.

On the face it torque wrenches are simple, you check the recommended torque value against instructions, you set the torque wrench appropriately, you crank until you hit the figure. Done, and safely too. But in reality it's not actually simple at all, and there are good reasons to question the real safety. There are lots of variables:

* Where do you find the recommended torque value? It's engraved/printed on some things like stems, seat tube binders, etc., but otherwise you are searching in the minimal instructions that come with some parts, or else online or in books. Not all manufacturers use the same figures/tolerances so you might hit a generalised recommendation which is actually not appropriate for your particular brand (and model) of part. As an example, the Park Tools Blue Book gives some very specific torque figures but then generalises for others. Admittedly most manufacturers probably fall in the same range for similar parts, but there are exceptions, and given that you are using a torque wrench you are obviously motivated to be careful with your bike parts, but your efforts could be entirely undermined at the first hurdle.

* Is/was your torque wrench accurate to start with? Even if so, does it need calibration after having been used a lot? Have you ever dropped or knocked it (do you store it carefully, do you ever lend it to anyone that is less careful with it, etc.?), and if so will this have knocked it out of whack? Etc. It's supposed to be a very accurate instrument, if it's not then is it just a little less effective than it should be or is it enitrely useless? Maybe you never worry about any of that, but if you are relying on your torque wrench to keep relatively fragile bike parts safe then you really should give some thought to it.

* Do you use a click-type torque wrench or a beam-type torque wrench, and is one type better than the other? That's a whole area of contentious debate. Personally I like both, for different reasons, as to whether one is more accurate than the other, I'm not even going to speculate. Should you even care?

* Do you grease the bolts you are using the torque wrench on? Strictly speaking you shouldn't. I don't like ungreased bolts though, a lasting legacy from my youth of having to wrestle with seized bolts (a consequence of poor quality bolts and/or poor quality tools and/or careless handling on my part, etc.), so I grease them. This greatly increases the risk of over-torquing the bolts, a risk that you can mitigate, but only if you think carefully about what you are doing, which to a certain extent goes against the convenience and implied risk-free nature of using a torque wrench in the first place.

* Do you hold your torque wrench correctly? It's not difficult, but get it wrong and the torque wrench is potentially useless, you may be holding it in such a way that you apply far too much, or far too little, torque.

* Do you use/apply your torque wrench correctly? The advice is to tighten the bolt gradually, from loose, you don't just apply the torque wrench to an already mostly-tightened bolt. That's a subjective measure, plus when you have paired bolts (e.g. on a Shimano crank, on a stem, etc.) where you are supposed to alternately tighten one bolt and then the other back and forth, you can't go from loose to full torque with each bolt, so are you losing accuracy/reliability in the process? I would say yes. I would also say you can account for that by feel, but that again raises the question of why to use a torque wrench in the first place as, depending on your point of view, it is arguably supposed to entirely eliminate the need for "feel".

* Do you set your torque wrench to the recommended torque value of the bolt/part, or to a lower value? Recommendations differ, but the one I have most sympathy with is the recommendation to use a lower value. The recommended torque value for any part is usually a maximum torque, much like the max pressure labelled on the side of a tyre. To me it makes sense to not push close to the maximum torque, particularly when a greased bolt, questionable accuracy of torque wrench, questions over technique, etc., mean that the torque that your wrench generates may not be as accurate as you'd like.


There are more things to consider too (e.g. are you using good quality hex/torx/whatever bits in your torque wrench - a sloppy fit in the bolt/part throws the real torque applied up in the air too) but those are the main ones that spring to mind. As I say, I use torque wrenches too, mostly out of laziness I must admit as I don't find myself working on bolts regularly enough these days to remember what "tight enough" feels like for various parts so it's easier to simply reach for a torque wrench.

But I question the faith that I, and many others, so casually put into torque wrenches, I reckon we all too easily gloss over the fact that they are accurate in a very specific set of circumstances only, for the most part we are probably all better off developing a sense of feel and relying on that. Some people would consider that very risky, no-one wants their stem not to be adequately tightened around their handlebars while they progress along the learning curve of "what is tight enough" for example, but on the other hand I think a lot of people use torque wrenches without giving sufficient thought to whether it really is doing what they expect it to do. In the worst case you may actually be putting your bike parts at *greater* risk with a torque wrench.

fillup

Jeekers Dooserie there's a lot of info anda lot of sense in that post

I'm now veering on the side of a €40-ish wrench because it's a necessary bit of kit to tighten ur bits n bobs and paying any thing more seems to be a waste of money given how the level of accuracies peter off over periods of usage (but not to a detramental amount)

torydiver

Ritchey have a preset wrench, set for 5nm , it's handy and covers stuff like seatpost, stem bolts etc... Picked one up for a tenner... .

coastwatch

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Is crankset torque really all that important? I ask because i'm about to launch into changing my hollowtech BB and was just planning on doing up the pinch bolts by feel. I've watched a few how-to videos and none of them use a torque wrench. I think i saw Sheldon or some other website say describe 50Nm as "bastard tight", so was basically planning on tightening the pinch bolts as tight as I could physically get them.

What could potentially happen if you do up the pinch bolts too tight?

I think the 40-50Nm Lumen mentioned is the torque range for assembling press fit type bottom brackets. These usually have a wave washer that is compressed (but not flattened) to preload the bearing and prevent side to side movement of the crankset. AFAIK, too tight will cause the bearings wear out early, too loose will allow movement ( and creaking sounds) in the BB.

The Shimano Hollowtech design is different and less hassle. The preload is supposed to be done with a plastic adapter, hand tight, so no chance of over-tightening that.
I think you would get away without a torque wrench for the pinch bolts, tight enough that the crank arm wont fall off.

doozerie

fillup wrote: »

Jeekers Dooserie there's a lot of info anda lot of sense in that post

I'm now veering on the side of a €40-ish wrench because it's a necessary bit of kit to tighten ur bits n bobs and paying any thing more seems to be a waste of money given how the level of accuracies peter off over periods of usage (but not to a detramental amount)

If you are concerned about tightening bolts around carbon parts then a torque wrench, if used carefully (i.e. bearing in mind its limitations), can help. If you are used to tightening bolts without a torque wrench then I don't see a torque wrench as being necessary, especially if not working with relatively fragile parts like carbon (fragile in the sense that it can be crushed more easily than some materials), but not everyone is confident in their own judgement so a torque wrench can give peace of mind.

I bought a torque wrench for that very reason, I was being paranoid about cracking my brand new carbon seat tube and/or my brand new carbon seat post. In my case though, my confidence in gauging safe tightening pressure by hand has since been undermined a bit by using torque wrenches regularly - for example, I use one of the Ritchey preset torque wrenches for my seatpost collar, it's such a convenient little tool that I just reach for it automatically and I've got to the point where I'd suddenly be nervous if I had to tighten the collar and I didn't have that tool to hand. Silly, but true, even though I question the real accuracy of the torque wrench I'm still motivated to rely upon it.

Overall though, when I manage to ignore the paranoia, I have more faith in my own sense of feel, coupled with using *good* tools. By good tools, I mean tools that fit well, when it comes to allen keys in particular the quality of fit can vary widely. I recently started using a set of Wera Hex-plus allen keys which claim to provide much greater grip over traditional allen keys. I like them a lot, there is no sense of the kind of play/movement that I perceive with my (Park Tool) torque wrench and bits. These days I'd almost prefer to use the Wera allen keys and tighten by feel, than use my torque wrench and it's relatively poorly fitting allen bits and tighten to the figure the wrench claims is accurate.