How will the outcome of the finals affect LeBrons legacy?

Carcharodon

I don't agree with the whole choking thing about LeBron, I think that is just a media driven soundbite. He has hit a lot of big shots in his career and even though he didn't continue his amazing game into ot, you cant take away from what he did in the game. As a previous poster said, he could of been burnt out.

It really sucks for Irving, I hated watching him limp off, a lot of idiot fans here were delighted today that he is injured, I am a massive warriors fan and I want him to play. You want your team to beat the best fair and square plus how could you wish an injury like that on a player ?

ButtersSuki

Carcharodon wrote: »

I don't agree with the whole choking thing about LeBron, I think that is just a media driven soundbite. He has hit a lot of big shots in his career and even though he didn't continue his amazing game into ot, you cant take away from what he did in the game. As a previous poster said, he could of been burnt out.

It really sucks for Irving, I hated watching him limp off, a lot of idiot fans here were delighted today that he is injured, I am a massive warriors fan and I want him to play. You want your team to beat the best fair and square plus how could you wish an injury like that on a player ?

Burnt out? Ah come on, I don't recall ever hear Jordan or Bird saying they were too tired to take the last shot. It's not a sound bite, there's ample evidence of him missing, taking poor shots or the much bigger sin of not taking the last shot and passing the buck (ball) to lesser players.

Take Jordan in particular, In several play off series in his career and in Finals themselves he practically single handedly put an inferior team on his back and dragged them over the line by simply dominating the 4th quarter of games - and he wasn't racking up assists to do that.

I'll come back to this later.

ButtersSuki

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Burnt out? Ah come on, I don't recall ever hear Jordan or Bird saying they were too tired to take the last shot. It's not a sound bite, there's ample evidence of him missing, taking poor shots or the much bigger sin of not taking the last shot and passing the buck (ball) to lesser players.

Take Jordan in particular, In several play off series in his career and in Finals themselves he practically single handedly put an inferior team on his back and dragged them over the line by simply dominating the 4th quarter of games - and he wasn't racking up assists to do that.

I'll come back to this later.

He hits a higher percentage of clutch shots than Kobe also there's nothing wrong with passing out of the last shot if the situations right not everyone has to be Jordan magic was pretty damn good to and he would have done the same

Carcharodon

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Burnt out? Ah come on, I don't recall ever hear Jordan or Bird saying they were too tired to take the last shot. It's not a sound bite, there's ample evidence of him missing, taking poor shots or the much bigger sin of not taking the last shot and passing the buck (ball) to lesser players.

Take Jordan in particular, In several play off series in his career and in Finals themselves he practically single handedly put an inferior team on his back and dragged them over the line by simply dominating the 4th quarter of games - and he wasn't racking up assists to do that.

I'll come back to this later.

Well, I don't think lebron actually said he was burnt out, it was just an opinion people had as to why he didn't continue his form into ot. I think people just want to look at the negatives and find any fault they can, if people can stop for one minute with the pointless comparisons to players that played 20 years ago and appreciate him for the moment those people could be a little happier. The past few seasons have really shown how good lebron is in my opinion.
No matter what he does, people will find fault, its human nature

scottmcb04

In the ot game against Atlanta, lebron did look it on his feet but he still kept going, and being the team leader! I thought it was savage the effort he put in that night!

I think the difference is that the players around him might be bottling it a bit coz is the finals, or golden stats defence is are forcing him into making the wrong decisions, or making the tough shots! (I would not be his biggest fan either)

Plus, id agree with carcharadon,the comparisons are annoying, enjoy what we have now, make the comparisons when they retire!

ButtersSuki

scottmcb04 wrote: »

In the ot game against Atlanta, lebron did look it on his feet but he still kept going, and being the team leader! I thought it was savage the effort he put in that night!

I think the difference is that the players around him might be bottling it a bit coz is the finals, or golden stats defence is are forcing him into making the wrong decisions, or making the tough shots! (I would not be his biggest fan either)

Plus, id agree with carcharadon,the comparisons are annoying, enjoy what we have now, make the comparisons when they retire!

Really guys? LeBron is the guy who has publicly and often said he wants to be seen as the greatest ever. To be the GOAT, you have to be compared to those who have gone before you.

Look at LeBron's career - his best takeover games are never series deciders - the Boston career game was a Game 6 of 7, the Indiana layup was a game 4 if I remember correctly. I still go back to the 2 threes he jacked up when they were down to San An in Game 6 - Magic called the first one of those "the worst shot he has ever seen at any level with the game on the line" or something like that (I can't remember the exact quote but I will dig it out if required).

I'm not saying he's not supremely talented - he clearly is. He's still the best player in the league (and I say that as a huge Curry fan). What I am saying is he does not posess the killer instinct or takeover ability Jordan (or Bird) had. He does not appear to have the mental strength or application Jordan had. STOP with the assist thing - that is passing the buck. The Cavs did not move heaven and earth to resign LeBron for him to pass to Dellavedova (for example) to take the big shot.

Jordan Finals Stats:
FINALS STATS
YEAR G GS MPG FG% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG PPG
1991 5 5 44.0 .558 .848 1.6 5.0 6.6 11.4 2.80 1.40 31.2
1992 6 6 42.3 .526 .891 1.0 3.8 4.8 6.5 1.67 0.33 35.8
1993 6 6 45.7 .508 .694 2.5 6.0 8.5 6.3 1.67 0.67 41.0
1996 6 6 42.0 .415 .836 1.7 3.7 5.3 4.2 1.67 0.17 27.3
1997 6 6 42.7 .456 .764 1.5 5.5 7.0 6.0 1.17 0.83 32.3
1998 6 6 41.7 .427 .814 1.5 2.5 4.0 2.3 1.83 0.67 33.5


HONORS
1991 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1992 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1993 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1996 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1997 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1998 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player





Does anyone seriously doubt that barring his self-imposed retirement or injury, that would be 8 titles and 8 MVPs?






I've already said it here that I think GS are content to let LeBron get whatever he wants stats wise and make someone else beat them.

Carcharodon

Ok, he is not as good as Jordan, bird, majic kareem, whomever..
Case closed, move on.

killwill

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Really guys? LeBron is the guy who has publicly and often said he wants to be seen as the greatest ever. To be the GOAT, you have to be compared to those who have gone before you.

Look at LeBron's career - his best takeover games are never series deciders - the Boston career game was a Game 6 of 7, the Indiana layup was a game 4 if I remember correctly. I still go back to the 2 threes he jacked up when they were down to San An in Game 6 - Magic called the first one of those "the worst shot he has ever seen at any level with the game on the line" or something like that (I can't remember the exact quote but I will dig it out if required).

I'm not saying he's not supremely talented - he clearly is. He's still the best player in the league (and I say that as a huge Curry fan). What I am saying is he does not posess the killer instinct or takeover ability Jordan (or Bird) had. He does not appear to have the mental strength or application Jordan had. STOP with the assist thing - that is passing the buck. The Cavs did not move heaven and earth to resign LeBron for him to pass to Dellavedova (for example) to take the big shot.

Jordan Finals Stats:
FINALS STATS
YEAR G GS MPG FG% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG PPG
1991 5 5 44.0 .558 .848 1.6 5.0 6.6 11.4 2.80 1.40 31.2
1992 6 6 42.3 .526 .891 1.0 3.8 4.8 6.5 1.67 0.33 35.8
1993 6 6 45.7 .508 .694 2.5 6.0 8.5 6.3 1.67 0.67 41.0
1996 6 6 42.0 .415 .836 1.7 3.7 5.3 4.2 1.67 0.17 27.3
1997 6 6 42.7 .456 .764 1.5 5.5 7.0 6.0 1.17 0.83 32.3
1998 6 6 41.7 .427 .814 1.5 2.5 4.0 2.3 1.83 0.67 33.5


HONORS
1991 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1992 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1993 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1996 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1997 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1998 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player





Does anyone seriously doubt that barring his self-imposed retirement or injury, that would be 8 titles and 8 MVPs?






I've already said it here that I think GS are content to let LeBron get whatever he wants stats wise and make someone else beat them.

Hard to disagree with you there to be honest.

With regards the tactics that GS played in Game 1 and will surely continue tonight, they would have had to go back to the drawing board if Irving, Love and Varejao were all fit.
Now I know its all ifs and buts but with those 3 fit the teams are so much more even.

scottmcb04

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Really guys? LeBron is the guy who has publicly and often said he wants to be seen as the greatest ever. To be the GOAT, you have to be compared to those who have gone before you.

Look at LeBron's career - his best takeover games are never series deciders - the Boston career game was a Game 6 of 7, the Indiana layup was a game 4 if I remember correctly. I still go back to the 2 threes he jacked up when they were down to San An in Game 6 - Magic called the first one of those "the worst shot he has ever seen at any level with the game on the line" or something like that (I can't remember the exact quote but I will dig it out if required).

I'm not saying he's not supremely talented - he clearly is. He's still the best player in the league (and I say that as a huge Curry fan). What I am saying is he does not posess the killer instinct or takeover ability Jordan (or Bird) had. He does not appear to have the mental strength or application Jordan had. STOP with the assist thing - that is passing the buck. The Cavs did not move heaven and earth to resign LeBron for him to pass to Dellavedova (for example) to take the big shot.

Jordan Finals Stats:
FINALS STATS
YEAR G GS MPG FG% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG PPG
1991 5 5 44.0 .558 .848 1.6 5.0 6.6 11.4 2.80 1.40 31.2
1992 6 6 42.3 .526 .891 1.0 3.8 4.8 6.5 1.67 0.33 35.8
1993 6 6 45.7 .508 .694 2.5 6.0 8.5 6.3 1.67 0.67 41.0
1996 6 6 42.0 .415 .836 1.7 3.7 5.3 4.2 1.67 0.17 27.3
1997 6 6 42.7 .456 .764 1.5 5.5 7.0 6.0 1.17 0.83 32.3
1998 6 6 41.7 .427 .814 1.5 2.5 4.0 2.3 1.83 0.67 33.5


HONORS
1991 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1992 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1993 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1996 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1997 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1998 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player





Does anyone seriously doubt that barring his self-imposed retirement or injury, that would be 8 titles and 8 MVPs?






I've already said it here that I think GS are content to let LeBron get whatever he wants stats wise and make someone else beat them.

Theoretically anything could happen between now and lebron retiring that's why i find it annoying to have these continuous comparisons between him and jordan!

I don't think he's better, but he could be, them bottled shots you refer to wouldn't carry much water if he went on to get 7 or 8 rings!

ButtersSuki

One other thing to throw in guys, he's playing in the East at a period of time when 8 of the best 10 teams in the league are in the West.

If he loses these finals as is likely he goes to 2-4 in the finals, that's not exactly clutch. I know his team have injuries this year but if you throw that Cleveland team in the East they're not making the Finals anyway - even if fully healthy.

ButtersSuki

scottmcb04 wrote: »

I don't think he's better, but he could be, them bottled shots you refer to wouldn't carry much water if he went on to get 7 or 8 rings!

He will not be winning 7 or 8 rings. Not now. Zero chance of that happening.

padraig_f

I think the debate is settled that Lebron will never be as great as Jordan. We probably need to stop comparing players to Jordan, it's an impossible standard to match. In fairness I think Lebron invited it a bit early in his career, taking the number 23, calling himself the king, doing the chalk toss thing. The media also, with an agenda, played it up, and I guess Nike didn't mind it either. In recent seasons he's toned it down, which I think is a good thing.

There are many great players who'll never match Jordan, and the comparison can maybe stop us appreciating them. Lebron is the best player of his generation, the best player on the court the other night. I think overly criticising him for the last shot is unfair. You need to look at the whole game he played. Without his efforts in the game, they wouldn't have had a last shot to try and win it.

Carcharodon

ButtersSuki wrote: »

One other thing to throw in guys, he's playing in the East at a period of time when 8 of the best 10 teams in the league are in the West.

If he loses these finals as is likely he goes to 2-4 in the finals, that's not exactly clutch. I know his team have injuries this year but if you throw that Cleveland team in the East they're not making the Finals anyway - even if fully healthy.

One more thing to throw out there, LeBron is a Capricorn and Jordan is Aquarius, clearly jordan has the cooler star sign.

Gwynplaine

Who is this Jordan fella anyway?

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman

By 30 (Lebron's current age) Jordan had 2 rings, 2 finals MVPS and 3 Regular season MVP's.

So if your going to compare like with like then do it like that ..

Lebron has 2 rings, 2 finals MVPs and 4 Regular season MVP's

Lebron has also been in more finals .. he may not be as clutch, will there ever be someone with ice water in his veins like Jordan? Probably not. But when the history of basketball is written Lebron will be right at the top of the game as maybe the best there ever was but his career is a long way off finished.

Another thing is that superstars have aligned several times over the years. So I dont get the criticism of Lebron going to Miami. The most important thing for me is that he has gone back to Cleveland to do one thing. Win a Championship and WHEN he wins one there it will be his defining moment and the greatest of his career.

Lebron is superstar great, I'm a Jordan fan and if it came down to one shot one time, Jordan every time. But I would take either to build a franchise around. Lebron's numbers are gaudy, ridiculously good in fact. He's going to finish ahead of Jordan in every aspect, more points, more rebounds, more assists. So to say there is no comparison well that is simply just comparing them on one facet of the game and that's crunchtime shots.

Both are brilliant and the comparisons will continue long into the future.

NufcNavan

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

By 30 (Lebron's current age) Jordan had 2 rings, 2 finals MVPS and 3 Regular season MVP's.

So if your going to compare like with like then do it like that ..

Lebron has 2 rings, 2 finals MVPs and 4 Regular season MVP's

Lebron has also been in more finals .. he may not be as clutch, will there ever be someone with ice water in his veins like Jordan? Probably not. But when the history of basketball is written Lebron will be right at the top of the game as maybe the best there ever was but his career is a long way off finished.

Another thing is that superstars have aligned several times over the years. So I dont get the criticism of Lebron going to Miami. The most important thing for me is that he has gone back to Cleveland to do one thing. Win a Championship and WHEN he wins one there it will be his defining moment and the greatest of his career.

Lebron is superstar great, I'm a Jordan fan and if it came down to one shot one time, Jordan every time. But I would take either to build a franchise around. Lebron's numbers are gaudy, ridiculously good in fact. He's going to finish ahead of Jordan in every aspect, more points, more rebounds, more assists. So to say there is no comparison well that is simply just comparing them on one facet of the game and that's crunchtime shots.

Both are brilliant and the comparisons will continue long into the future.

Except you can't do it like that, because Lebron joined the NBA at age 18 whereas Jordan stayed in school. Lebron has played more seasons by age 30 than Jordan did. That is fact.

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman

NufcNavan wrote: »

Except you can't do it like that, because Lebron joined the NBA at age 18 whereas Jordan stayed in school. Lebron has played more seasons by age 30 than Jordan did. That is fact.

So Lebron was NBA ready before Jordan? That would be another pro Lebron stat if you want to look at it that way.

NufcNavan

The Reservoir Dubs Anchorman wrote: »

So Lebron was NBA ready before Jordan? That would be another pro Lebron stat if you want to look at it that way.

Come on, Lebron was NBA ready at 18 because he was a physical freak of nature. His game was still very raw. That's not a knock on Lebron. Kids stayed in school in the 80s, that's just the way it was.

Carcharodon

As great as the lebron debate is, I am off to the game, enjoy !!!

scottmcb04

ButtersSuki wrote: »

He will not be winning 7 or 8 rings. Not now. Zero chance of that happening.

You are not taking anything i say in the context that it is in!

elliot895

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Really guys? LeBron is the guy who has publicly and often said he wants to be seen as the greatest ever. To be the GOAT, you have to be compared to those who have gone before you.

Look at LeBron's career - his best takeover games are never series deciders - the Boston career game was a Game 6 of 7, the Indiana layup was a game 4 if I remember correctly. I still go back to the 2 threes he jacked up when they were down to San An in Game 6 - Magic called the first one of those "the worst shot he has ever seen at any level with the game on the line" or something like that (I can't remember the exact quote but I will dig it out if required).

I'm not saying he's not supremely talented - he clearly is. He's still the best player in the league (and I say that as a huge Curry fan). What I am saying is he does not posess the killer instinct or takeover ability Jordan (or Bird) had. He does not appear to have the mental strength or application Jordan had. STOP with the assist thing - that is passing the buck. The Cavs did not move heaven and earth to resign LeBron for him to pass to Dellavedova (for example) to take the big shot.

Jordan Finals Stats:
FINALS STATS
YEAR G GS MPG FG% FT% OFF DEF TOT APG SPG BPG PPG
1991 5 5 44.0 .558 .848 1.6 5.0 6.6 11.4 2.80 1.40 31.2
1992 6 6 42.3 .526 .891 1.0 3.8 4.8 6.5 1.67 0.33 35.8
1993 6 6 45.7 .508 .694 2.5 6.0 8.5 6.3 1.67 0.67 41.0
1996 6 6 42.0 .415 .836 1.7 3.7 5.3 4.2 1.67 0.17 27.3
1997 6 6 42.7 .456 .764 1.5 5.5 7.0 6.0 1.17 0.83 32.3
1998 6 6 41.7 .427 .814 1.5 2.5 4.0 2.3 1.83 0.67 33.5


HONORS
1991 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1992 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1993 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1996 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1997 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player
1998 NBA Finals Most Valuable Player





Does anyone seriously doubt that barring his self-imposed retirement or injury, that would be 8 titles and 8 MVPs?






I've already said it here that I think GS are content to let LeBron get whatever he wants stats wise and make someone else beat them.

Game 7 2013 finals vs Spurs LeBron stat line 37-12-4....think he tied a record that night for most points in an nba finals game 7

He can takeover a game as he did against the Hawks and as he did last night 39-16-11...ok his shooting percentage isn't great but use all asked for it, he's taking the shots

ButtersSuki

elliot895 wrote: »

Game 7 2013 finals vs Spurs LeBron stat line 37-12-4....think he tied a record that night for most points in an nba finals game 7

He can takeover a game as he did against the Hawks and as he did last night 39-16-11...ok his shooting percentage isn't great but use all asked for it, he's taking the shots

Way to miss the point.......

The series was on the line in Game 6 but for the miracle 3 by Jesus Shuttlesworth. LeBron in the last minute of that game threw up a complete brick as panic set in (the one Magic referred to as the worst shot in that situation at any level).

I'll give him his due, he played very well last night. Huge performance.

elliot895

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Way to miss the point.......

The series was on the line in Game 6 but for the miracle 3 by Jesus Shuttlesworth. LeBron in the last minute of that game threw up a complete brick as panic set in (the one Magic referred to as the worst shot in that situation at any level).

I'll give him his due, he played very well last night. Huge performance.

So in judging greatness you are looking at clutch plays rather than the body of work in the course of a full finals game with the series on the line? Strange assessment

Normally I just view this forum from the outside but the lebron bashing got bad there! Which seems ridiculous after a game he had his highest playoff points total

The GOAT debate is pointless at this stage, wait until the end of his career before a full judgement can be made

ButtersSuki

elliot895 wrote: »

So in judging greatness you are looking at clutch plays rather than the body of work in the course of a full finals game with the series on the line? Strange assessment

Normally I just view this forum from the outside but the lebron bashing got bad there! Which seems ridiculous after a game he had his highest playoff points total

The GOAT debate is pointless at this stage, wait until the end of his career before a full judgement can be made

Now that is going out of your way to take things out of context. Well done!

BQQ

If Lebron can drag this bunch of scrubs to a ring, it will top any c'ship MJ won.

killwill

LeBron has been a beast so far in this series.
What he has done without their second and third best scorers is unbelievable.