Rad not heating

johnnyb6

Hi over weekend I added a small rad to my attic . I had 1 there all ready so I t off this one. I have a pressurised system. I drained the system as I decided to add retarder while I was at it. My problem now is that the two rads in attic wont heat now. The pipe coming to original rad is hot but heat comes no further. The system is running at half bar pressure, is that ok. Would be grateful for any advice, Also I have balanced rads fairly well.

Wearb

Is the attic in a bungalow or 2 storey house? You will have to put the system at at least 1.5 bar. Then bleed the rads. Re-pressurise and bleed again and so on until you get no air, but do get water out of the upstairs rad. Where is the pressure gauge located?

Dtp1979

johnnyb6 wrote: »

Hi over weekend I added a small rad to my attic . I had 1 there all ready so I t off this one. I have a pressurised system. I drained the system as I decided to add retarder while I was at it. My problem now is that the two rads in attic wont heat now. The pipe coming to original rad is hot but heat comes no further. The system is running at half bar pressure, is that ok. Would be grateful for any advice, Also I have balanced rads fairly well.

What's retarder?

Tony Beetroot

Dtp1979 wrote: »

What's retarder?

Its a chemical agent that slows down a chemical reaction.

Dtp1979

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Its a chemical agent that slows down a chemical reaction.

You mean inhibitor?
If do it most definitely shouldn't be added to the system unless the system is new or previously powerflushed.

johnnyb6

Dtp1979 wrote: »

You mean inhibitor?
If do it most definitely shouldn't be added to the system unless the system is new or previously powerflushed.

Yes I mean inhibitor. I heard about the power flush but a lot of people including plumbers and plumber suppliers said there was no need. I had plenty heat in original rad in attic and only added small single extra one. My gauge is located on water valve near red vessel. I think my system was running at 1 bar before I went at it but why is it a lot less now

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Is the attic in a bungalow or 2 storey house? You will have to put the system at at least 1.5 bar. Then bleed the rads. Re-pressurise and bleed again and so on until you get no air, but do get water out of the upstairs rad. Where is the pressure gauge located?

Its attic in 2 storey house

Wearb

If you let water out of the system, pressure will drop.

Follow my instructions and see how it goes.

Tony Beetroot

Dtp1979 wrote: »

You mean inhibitor?

Retarder is the same thing as inhibitor.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

If you let water out of the system, pressure will drop.

Follow my instructions and see how it goes.

My problem is that when I bleed both rads in attic water comes out so no air in then. could there be air lock and would this be stopping the pressure going up to 1 bar

Wearb

What floor is your gauge on?

What are you doing to increase pressure?

What is you mains water source?

Dtp1979

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Retarder is the same thing as inhibitor.

Never heard it called that. I've used a lot of inhibitor brands and none refer to it as retarder

Dtp1979

johnnyb6 wrote: »

Yes I mean inhibitor. I heard about the power flush but a lot of people including plumbers and plumber suppliers said there was no need. I had plenty heat in original rad in attic and only added small single extra one. My gauge is located on water valve near red vessel. I think my system was running at 1 bar before I went at it but why is it a lot less now

Well the plumbers and plumber suppliers don't know what they're saying. Any decent chemical inhibitor will clearly state on its instructions that you shouldn't add to a system that isn't clean. Unless your system is perfectly clean and your using the exact same brand top up inhibitor levels?

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

What floor is your gauge on?

What are you doing to increase pressure?

What is you mains water source?

The gauge is on ground floor beside red flask
Mains water supply comes in true valve


Don't know how to increase pressure

Tony Beetroot

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Never heard it called that. I've used a lot of inhibitor brands and none refer to it as retarder

Retarder is not a brand its a substance used to control the rates of free radical polymerization.

Dtp1979

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

Retarder is not a brand its a substance used to control the rates of free radical polymerization.

I know it's not a brand and I'm not disputing what you say. I only use too chemicals like fernox, kamco and sentinel and I've never seen them mention retarder, hence my original question

johnnyb6

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Well the plumbers and plumber suppliers don't know what they're saying. Any decent chemical inhibitor will clearly state on its instructions that you shouldn't add to a system that isn't clean. Unless your system is perfectly clean and your using the exact same brand top up inhibitor levels?

I suppose I shouldn't have done it so. What problems have I caused

Tony Beetroot

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I know it's not a brand and I'm not disputing what you say. I only use too chemicals like fernox, kamco and sentinel and I've never seen them mention retarder, hence my original question

I have answered it, retarder is another word for inhibitor. Its like the yanks use different words e.g. gas and we use petrol

Dtp1979

Tony Beetroot wrote: »

I have answered it, retarder is another word for inhibitor. Its like the yanks use different words e.g. gas and we use petrol

Fair enough. As I said, not disputing it at all.

Dtp1979

johnnyb6 wrote: »

I suppose I shouldn't have done it so. What problems have I caused

Depending on the state of the current water, I've been told first hand by a man far more knowledgable than myself, that it can cause a mixture that is corrosive to pex piping, and this has been backed up by companies who make the stuff.
Me personally, I'd drain and refill the system a few times until it's free.
Did you put inhibitor into the system from day 1?

Wearb

Is it a local authority supply or your own pump?

There should be a filling loop and valve. Post a pic of the area around the red expansion vessel.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Is it a local authority supply or your own pump?

There should be a filling loop and valve. Post a pic of the area around the red expansion vessel.

its local authority supply. The valve has the gauge on it and it tops up system if there is leak, so I keep it off when system is running ok

Wearb

Unless you are on top of a hill, you should be able to get it up to 1.5 bar. A pic of gauge and valve area would help. You may need a plumber in to sort it.

johnnyb6

http://imageshack.com/a/img913/2033/qoEYVC.jpg At long last I got this image posting sorted. This is valve with gauge on top left.

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/7291/Wp7CXH.jpg

Wearb

johnnyb6 wrote: »

http://imageshack.com/a/img913/2033/qoEYVC.jpg At long last I got this image posting sorted. This is valve with gauge on top left.

.

You think Blurry

Anyway that looks like a permanently connected automatic filler valve. Shouldn't be connected all the time like that. Explain what you have been doing to increase the pressure? How long does it take to loose pressure?

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

.

You think Blurry

Anyway that looks like a permanently connected automatic filler valve. Shouldn't be connected all the time like that. Explain what you have been doing to increase the pressure? How long does it take to loose pressure?

hi again , all I doing is opening that valve as this should be the way, it takes a very long time for the pressure to build and I have no leak. I have been draining water from 2 rads in attic over last few days as they full of air. I had air lock at entrance of rad in attic and sorted it by opening inlet valve. I think my problem is,I have loads of air in system

Wearb

You can increase the pressure by gently increasing the pressure at the top end of the valve that is just disappearing off the top of the pic. Don't over do it.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

You can increase the pressure by gently increasing the pressure at the top end of the valve that is just disappearing off the top of the pic. Don't over do it.

do you mean twist the black knob

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

You can increase the pressure by gently increasing the pressure at the top end of the valve that is just disappearing off the top of the pic. Don't over do it.

http://imageshack.com/a/img661/7291/Wp7CXH.jpg


do you mean the black knob. sorry about not rotating image

Wearb

There is a screw in the centre of that knob with plus and minus marked on it. Make sure the other end is turned on and watch the gauge as you make the adjustments.

When finished the whole series of pressure, bleed, pressure, bleed, turn off the valve and keep an eye on the pressure for a few days.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

There is a screw in the centre of that knob with plus and minus marked on it. Make sure the other end is turned on and watch the gauge as you make the adjustments.

When finished the whole series of pressure, bleed, pressure, bleed, turn off the valve and keep an eye on the pressure for a few days.

Thanks very much for the help. Its greatly appreciated. I have been letting air out of two rads in attic each day but when air stops no water comes out, no matter how long I leave it open. Is this any thing to worry about or is it because pressure too low

Wearb

Very likely because the pressure is too low. Did you understand my explanation on how to increase the pressure?

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Very likely because the pressure is too low. Did you understand my explanation on how to increase the pressure?

Yes Wearb,I will sort it tomorrow. Its just a case of turning on water valve and then adjusting screw and when needle go to 1 bar turn water off, and then go bleeding rads again. I guess 1 bar pressure is enough. On my gauge the red hand is on 2 bar

Wearb

You may need 1.5 bar. Start at 1.25 and if you get no water out of those rads, go to 1.5.
Once all done, take a note of the reading when system is fully heated.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

You may need 1.5 bar. Start at 1.25 and if you get no water out of those rads, go to 1.5.
Once all done, take a note of the reading when system is fully heated.

If I set it to1.5 bar , will it go beyond 2 bar then when fully on and the fact that red hand is on 2 bar will this be dangerous

Wearb

It should be ok to nearly 3 bar. Certainly should not be a problem at 2.5 bar when hot.
The safety valve will release pressure AND water at 3 bar.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

It should be ok to nearly 3 bar. Certainly should not be a problem at 2.5 bar when hot.
The safety valve will release pressure AND water at 3 bar.

Wearb thanks a lot for all the help. The extra pressure freed up my 2 rads in attic today and they heated. I will monitor them for next week and let you know results. 1 query I have is that the pressure took over hour to go from half bar 1 bar. Is this normal

Wearb

No, that isn't normal. That valve may not be opening properly or there may be another valve somewhere before it. It may be poor mains pressure or even a partial blockage.

Glad you have got it as far as you have.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

No, that isn't normal. That valve may not be opening properly or there may be another valve somewhere before it. It may be poor mains pressure or even a partial blockage.

Glad you have got it as far as you have.

I have checked all rads today and they all heating well.I am worried about the valve as yes its taking an age to increase pressure Whats more worrying
is that the pressure keeps returning to half bar when cold. Should I have turned screw on top of valve back when I have reached the pressure I wanted. There is no leak visible anywhere

Wearb

Leave the screw at the position that gives you the pressure you want.

You should then only have to open the hand valve whenever it needs to be topped up. If at 1 bar when cold it should rise when hot and return to 1 when it cools down again. If it goes below that there there is some sort of problem. Could be automatic air valve leaking, pressure relief valve leaking, or no air in pressure vessel. Last one would cause pressure valve to let water by when system gets hot.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Leave the screw at the position that gives you the pressure you want.

You should then only have to open the hand valve whenever it needs to be topped up. If at 1 bar when cold it should rise when hot and return to 1 when it cools down again. If it goes below that there there is some sort of problem. Could be automatic air valve leaking, pressure relief valve leaking, or no air in pressure vessel. Last one would cause pressure valve to let water by when system gets hot.

` Hi Wearb, just came in the house this evening and found pool of water on kitchen floor and yes a leak in hot press. This must be why pressure was going down. I even bought new loop valve today as taught it was this. I have a leak on tap which is on top pipe going into copper cylinder. At the top of this pipe there is an air release valve. The leak is coming true the spigot of the tap. So must replace tap. Might give up and get plumber

Wearb

A pic of the leaking valve might be helpful. Are you sure it isn't the pressure valve that letting water by?

A plumber is probably a good idea at this stage anyway. You have two problems that needs looking at. 1. Why pressure is slow rise. 2. Why the leak.

Wearb

Air Vent


Pressure release valve


Gate valve

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Air Vent


Pressure release valve


Gate valve

Hi Wearb, Sorry for not getting back to you sooner but my internet was down. I asked 3 plumbers to come and look at job last week , but none of them bothered to call or even ring to tell me they not coming, so I said to hell with it , I would have a go myself and attacked it on Sunday and sorted it my self. I replace the pressure valve at boiler and the valve used to restrict the hot water going true the copper cylinder. Water and rads heating well and I just keeping eye on system for week.

Wearb

Well if that worked, then good. Wouldn't have been first try at a fix, but you never know for sure until you get eyes on the job.

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Well if that worked, then good. Wouldn't have been first try at a fix, but you never know for sure until you get eyes on the job.

but the valve at copper cylinder was where leak was

Wearb

Was that a gate valve? Was it leaking from the valve stem ?

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Was that a gate valve? Was it leaking from the valve stem ?

yes to both questions. My plumber supplier said I did well to get 12 years out of it. I could have wrapped tape around stem and tightened it up and used it again, but I said it was safer to get new one.

Wearb

Good. Lucky the leak was in such a visible place. Hope that sorts out most of your problems. Did you ever find out reason for slow pressure build up ?

johnnyb6

Wearb wrote: »

Good. Lucky the leak was in such a visible place. Hope that sorts out most of your problems. Did you ever find out reason for slow pressure build up ?

I think it was faulty valve there too as it wasn't opening to allow water in. That was second one I replaced. So fingers crossed all is ok now. I was happy I could sort it myself but amazed that plumbers aren't interested in doing that type of work anymore

Wearb

Well done. It is a great source of satisfaction to be able to sort out such problems.
Keep a note of what you have done and maybe sometime in the future you will need a plumber and you can ask him to give your work a quick look over. You can't beat experience when sorting out problems like this (having to replace 2 valves in a relatively short time).

I am also amazed that so many don't want to do jobs that I pass on to them. I am not a qualified plumber, but I understand how it all works. (I think that to be good at my job, that I need to have a good understanding of the whole system) Because of my lack of paper qualifications, I mostly steer clear of doing plumbing work, but sometimes (rarely) I do such work; after explaining my credentials to the customer. I am unsure if my oil burner service/installation/repair insurance would cover me in such instances. Probably not, and I explain that to the rare customer that I do such work for.