"Champions League Style" All-Ireland Draw

The Dark Knight

Having nothing better to do of a Sunday morning, i decided to do a mock Group Based "All-Ireland" Draw.
There has been a lot of talk of this lately with the uncompetitive nature of Leinster and the unfairness of Cork, Kerry and Mayo getting to QF every year without having a serious test.

• Seeding based on next year's NFL divisions (i.e. This years promoted teams take their places as higher seeds, and relegated teams drop down a seeding)
• Div 1 teams seeded 1, Div 2 team seeded 2, etc
• I ran a random number generator in Excel to sort the teams into their various groups (this would be a Televised draw in real live)
• Don’t know what to do with New York…. Maybe a playoff between them an London to take part. Travel is also a concern here.
• Home/Away ratio would also be an issue. Ideally each team would play each-other on a home and away basis, but that may be too many fixtures.

Here are the results of the First "Champions League Style" All-Ireland Draw:

Group A Group B Group C Group D Group E Group F Group G Group H
ROSCOMMON CORK MONAGHAN DUBLIN DONEGAL DOWN KERRY MAYO
FERMANAGH CAVAN LAOIS TYRONE MEATH GALWAY ARMAGH DERRY
OFFALY LONGFORD KILDARE TIPPERARY WESTMEATH CLARE SLIGO LIMERICK
WEXFORD WICKLOW CARLOW LOUTH ANTRIM LEITRIM LONDON WATERFORD

• Looks like the Rossies got a kind draw.
• The Dubs ended up with Tyrone (I honestly didn't rig this), Tipp and Louth.
• Some great games there with lots of competitive games for all teams.
• On the down side, I still can't see many groups that would not go with seeding.
  
• Top Two teams is each group would go onto the All-Ireland Series (Last 16 - Open Draw)
• Bottom two teams would go into the Last 16 of a secondary knock out competition
  Let's not call it the Tommy Murphy Cup - Maybe All-Ireland Shield.
  Needs to have a premium title, and be televised Live to make it matter.
  Maybe one game per round live, with the final being played as warm up to All-Ireland Final - Minors can still play before this game.

Comments? How kind was the draw for your county?

Fr Tod Umptious

Why not only one qualify from each group.
Make it far more competitive at the group stage.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why not only one qualify from each group.
Make it far more competitive at the group stage.

Or make it less competitive as with only one team qualifying and no relegation a lot of teams would have nothing to play for after their second or third match.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Looks more interesting than the current format.Offaly would have a decent chance of going through as there isn't much between them Wexford and Fermanagh.


Also I'd say the top seed in every group would go through but in all groups bar the last 2 I'd fancy a tight contest for the second place in the group.

Poor_old_gill

2 separate competitions of 16 teams with 4 groups of 4 in each.
Div 1 & 2 teams in the top competition and div 3 & 4 in the bottom initially and from the first season on there will be promotion/relegation.

Top 2 teams in each group go to quarter final with the 4 bottom teams in the top league playing off with 2 teams being relegated and the 2 finalists in the second tier coming up.

The above draw still guarantees several pointless mismatches

nice_guy80

you still have the league and provincial championships problems

Fr Tod Umptious

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Or make it less competitive as with only one team qualifying and no relegation a lot of teams would have nothing to play for after their second or third match.

Yea, having two teams qualified makes the non 1st seeds have something to play for all right, but also allows the 1st seeds take it easy.

Any open draw for the last 16 is not a good idea either, there should be a reward for winning the group.

munchkin_utd

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you still have the league and provincial championships problems

indeed.

any sketch plans for groups is doomed to failure unless you can explain how you are going to eliminate the provincials, and Ulster in particular

And whereever New York feature in this is anyones guess.

Fr Tod Umptious

munchkin_utd wrote: »

indeed.

any sketch plans for groups is doomed to failure unless you can explain how you are going to eliminate the provincials, and Ulster in particular

And whereever New York feature in this is anyones guess.

You would have to try and squeeze the Provincals into the start of the year, where the likes of the McGrath cup is now.

But they would lose almost all of their importance because they would have no influence on the All Ireland.

As for NY, well you just come up with some plan to send an All Star team or something.

A championship with London instead of Kilkenny and no NY makes a perfect 32 teams.

The NY game is of zero value as it is now.

djemba djemba

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you still have the league and provincial championships problems

I was thinking something similar. I would run the provincial championship between April and May. Game week in week out. I would then base my seedings for the champions league style format on the 4 teams that reach each provincial semi final. The other 16 teams can be drawn out with no restriction. At a push each unseeded team would play games against the seeded teams at home. Then run off the championship as the original poster suggested.

Fr Tod Umptious

djemba djemba wrote: »

I was thinking something similar. I would run the provincial championship between April and May. Game week in week out. I would then base my seedings for the champions league style format on the 4 teams that reach each provincial semi final. The other 16 teams can be drawn out with no restriction. At a push each unseeded team would play games against the seeded teams at home. Then run off the championship as the original poster suggested.

So for this year Sligo get seeded because they have reached the Connacht SF based on the draw ?

Next year that may be Leitrim, or Galway, or Roscommon or Mayo, or Sligo again.

The provincial structure is not fit for purpose as a determinant of the structure of a subsequent competition.

munchkin_utd

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

So for this year Sligo get seeded because they have reached the Connacht SF based on the draw ?

Next year that may be Leitrim, or Galway, or Roscommon or Mayo, or Sligo again.

The provincial structure is not fit for purpose as a determinant of the structure of a subsequent competition.

indeed, you could simply have the 16 counties seeded who reached the last 16 the year previous.
For the first year, just use league positions.

The idea of getting the most of the provincials over early is also not a bad idea, and actually, if you just did that now with a weekend or 2 of frantic early activity you could start the qualifiers much earlier and the spread of games would be more even.
Cavan has to wait 5 weeks for the qualifier and then there could be a game every other week, which is madness.

Jayop

The best solution to all of this as I see it is create the groups on the basis of the league in the last year you run it, so if we were to switch to this championship format now the seedings would be as above. Remove KK from it and put in London as was suggested above also.

Scrap the league as it stands, use that time to let the provinces play off their provincial championships so you still get the 4 provincial champs. They could decide on the structure but a round robin would be best with home and away games alternating annually. Then have the four of them play off against each other for a trophy (ironically this would then be closer to the old championship structure.)

Play the championship in the 8 groups, two top teams though to Sam and the two bottom teams though to another comp. That means that every single county team will get at least 4 championship games and the four finalists will have played the same amount of games be they from Connaught or Ulster. I know the bottom seeds will still get hammered by the top seeds in most of those groups, but why shouldn't some young forward from Louth get his chance to play a big game against the Dubs? The weak teams will still have the game against the 3rd seeds to compete in, and they will have the game in the lower tier knock out against typically 3rd or 4th tier teams.

This way you can have a fully set championship structure that starts nice and early, say around the second week in May. There'd be eight games on each second weekend so plenty of games to be divvied up between Sky and RTE and wont take away from the Hurling on the alternate weekends. If it was next year the last group games would be the 11th of June. Start into the knock outs two weeks after that with a two week break between games.

Last 16 - 25th June
Quarters - 9th July
Semi's - 23rd July
Final - 6th August

So essentially the club championships could get under way with no county interruption in half the counties before the end of June and in all counties by halfway though August.

You could even throw in a supercup type game between the tier 1 winner and the tier 2 winner if you wanted but it could be a waste of time.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

Jayop wrote: »

The best solution to all of this as I see it is create the groups on the basis of the league in the last year you run it, so if we were to switch to this championship format now the seedings would be as above. Remove KK from it and put in London as was suggested above also.

Scrap the league as it stands, use that time to let the provinces play off their provincial championships so you still get the 4 provincial champs. They could decide on the structure but a round robin would be best with home and away games alternating annually. Then have the four of them play off against each other for a trophy (ironically this would then be closer to the old championship structure.)

Play the championship in the 8 groups, two top teams though to Sam and the two bottom teams though to another comp. That means that every single county team will get at least 4 championship games and the four finalists will have played the same amount of games be they from Connaught or Ulster. I know the bottom seeds will still get hammered by the top seeds in most of those groups, but why shouldn't some young forward from Louth get his chance to play a big game against the Dubs? The weak teams will still have the game against the 3rd seeds to compete in, and they will have the game in the lower tier knock out against typically 3rd or 4th tier teams.

This way you can have a fully set championship structure that starts nice and early, say around the second week in May. There'd be eight games on each second weekend so plenty of games to be divvied up between Sky and RTE and wont take away from the Hurling on the alternate weekends. If it was next year the last group games would be the 11th of June. Start into the knock outs two weeks after that with a two week break between games.

Last 16 - 25th June
Quarters - 9th July
Semi's - 23rd July
Final - 6th August

So essentially the club championships could get under way with no county interruption in half the counties before the end of June and in all counties by halfway though August.

You could even throw in a supercup type game between the tier 1 winner and the tier 2 winner if you wanted but it could be a waste of time.

You couldn't scrap the league if implementing a format like this, would be important for seeding purposes.

threeball

You'd have to laugh at all the intricate and sometimes mindboggling formats that people are coming up with on a seemingly daily basis when there is a tried and trusted system in other sports the world over i.e. a proper league and a proper cup competition the only difference being in the world of GAA the holy grail would be the cup rather than the league.

Extend the league (3 groups of 12), condense the cup (straight knock out), play the provincials as a second cup competition. Once the season is properly mapped and structured there will be plenty of time for club championships and newcomers to the games will genuinely have a team to follow throughout the year.

Why re-invent the wheel?

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

threeball wrote: »

You'd have to laugh at all the intricate and sometimes mindboggling formats that people are coming up with on a seemingly daily basis when there is a tried and trusted system in other sports the world over i.e. a proper league and a proper cup competition the only difference being in the world of GAA the holy grail would be the cup rather than the league.

Extend the league (3 groups of 12), condense the cup (straight knock out), play the provincials as a second cup competition. Once the season is properly mapped and structured there will be plenty of time for club championships and newcomers to the games will genuinely have a team to follow throughout the year.

Why re-invent the wheel?

Wouldn't agree with that. In NBA no one really cares who wins the Western and Eastern Conference, same in the NFL with NFC and AFC. You could also say in European club football the most prestigious competition, certainly the most coveted, is the Champions League. The you have the the Euros, Copa America and World Cup. Look at tennis too, and golf for that matter. Add in rugby too.

Basically, it seems that in most sports around the world a cup competition is the most prestigious, and definitely the most coveted. Don't see why it should be any different for GAA. Championship should always be the main competition.

threeball

THFC wrote: »

Wouldn't agree with that. In NBA no one really cares who wins the Western and Eastern Conference, same in the NFL with NFC and AFC. You could also say in European club football the most prestigious competition, certainly the most coveted, is the Champions League. The you have the the Euros, Copa America and World Cup. Look at tennis too, and golf for that matter. Add in rugby too.

Basically, it seems that in most sports around the world a cup competition is the most prestigious, and definitely the most coveted. Don't see why it should be any different for GAA. Championship should always be the main competition.

And i'm not saying it shouldn't, I don't see how you can take that from what I wrote.

yop

Don't you know Mayo won't play in Limerick, if we have to go through that all over again!
And sending us to Waterford and Derry, we'll be all year on the road!


Ya its a hard dice to throw, always going to be pros and cons. The current setup is losing interest so they have to change something.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

threeball wrote: »

And i'm not saying it shouldn't, I don't see how you can take that from what I wrote.

Ah, thought you were implying the league should be the primary competition. My apologies.

Still though, league shouldn't be extended, it's fine the way it is. Should be played earlier if anything, with the provincials straight after, followed by some sort of revamped championship structure with the aim of county football being finished by August, so as to accommodate the bulk of the GAA players, i.e., the clubs. AFAIK they are already working on a way of finishing the championship earlier.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

yop

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Definitely not the case, read why the changes are needed, the state of football in too many of the provinces needs reviewing, not to do with the Dublin.

threeball

THFC wrote: »

Ah, thought you were implying the league should be the primary competition. My apologies.

Still though, league shouldn't be extended, it's fine the way it is. Should be played earlier if anything, with the provincials straight after, followed by some sort of revamped championship structure with the aim of county football being finished by August, so as to accommodate the bulk of the GAA players, i.e., the clubs. AFAIK they are already working on a way of finishing the championship earlier.

Teams can't improve if they don't have a competition to improve through. Too many counties years end in may/june. That has to change. That's why we need a league that runs through the championship

Fr Tod Umptious

threeball wrote: »

Teams can't improve if they don't have a competition to improve through. Too many counties years end in may/june. That has to change. That's why we need a league that runs through the championship

That argument is not as valid since 2001q

Since 2001 each team has played at least 2 games.
In that period we have seen Fermanagh and Wexford make the SF, Sligo and Limerick make the QF, Wicklow have had a long run, and I'm sure there are more examples.

There is no way all counties will ever be on the same level, they never have been, and for a lot of lower level GAA counties the championship is not the top priority.

I was in Carlow last summer and there was as much club football coverage in the local papers as you would see in Kerry.

The idea that some sort of champions league structure will make teams better is flawed.
The lower level teams will find themselves playing in dead rubbers that no one will give a damn about

keeponhurling

The Jimmy McGuinness suggestion of splitting the football championship into two tiers makes sense to me.

Really nobody wants to see Div 1 teams playing Div 4 teams

Perhaps provincial winners get go straight to the quarterfinals, as they do now, whereas the back door splits into those trying for Sam, and those going for another trophy.

threeball

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That argument is not as valid since 2001q

Since 2001 each team has played at least 2 games.
In that period we have seen Fermanagh and Wexford make the SF, Sligo and Limerick make the QF, Wicklow have had a long run, and I'm sure there are more examples.

There is no way all counties will ever be on the same level, they never have been, and for a lot of lower level GAA counties the championship is not the top priority.

I was in Carlow last summer and there was as much club football coverage in the local papers as you would see in Kerry.

The idea that some sort of champions league structure will make teams better is flawed.
The lower level teams will find themselves playing in dead rubbers that no one will give a damn about

If you read my post I didn't ask for a champions league format. I asked for a proper league and straight knock out championship. Teams develop through leagues not through a game or two at championship time

The Lost Sheep

threeball wrote: »

Teams can't improve if they don't have a competition to improve through. Too many counties years end in may/june. That has to change. That's why we need a league that runs through the championship

When would you start each competition for the counties.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That argument is not as valid since 2001

Since 2001 each team has played at least 2 games.
In that period we have seen Fermanagh and Wexford make the SF, Sligo and Limerick make the QF, Wicklow have had a long run, and I'm sure there are more examples.

There is no way all counties will ever be on the same level, they never have been, and for a lot of lower level GAA counties the championship is not the top priority.

I was in Carlow last summer and there was as much club football coverage in the local papers as you would see in Kerry.

The idea that some sort of champions league structure will make teams better is flawed.
The lower level teams will find themselves playing in dead rubbers that no one will give a damn about

How is his argument not valid?
There is no way counties will all be on the same level but you have to start teams on the same level. For which counties is the championship not the top priority?

threeball

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

When would you start each competition for the counties?

League would start in first week of march with championship starting in mid april. You could play 3 league games then a break week then a round of championship. Everyone would get to play til late july at least with weeks set aside for club championships aswell. Try to have it all wrapped up by the first two weeks in september with the entire gaa season ending by mid november at latest with club finals rounding off the year.

Jayop

THFC wrote: »

You couldn't scrap the league if implementing a format like this, would be important for seeding purposes.

Nah, you'd need the league to seed it the first year, there after just use your performance in the championship to seed the next season. Those who get to the last 8 are the top 8 seeds, the losing teams in the top tier last 16 are the second seeds, the last 8 in the bottom tier are the 3rd seeds and the remaining 8 teams are 4th seeds.

Simple really and fair too.

threeball wrote: »

You'd have to laugh at all the intricate and sometimes mindboggling formats that people are coming up with on a seemingly daily basis when there is a tried and trusted system in other sports the world over i.e. a proper league and a proper cup competition the only difference being in the world of GAA the holy grail would be the cup rather than the league.

Extend the league (3 groups of 12), condense the cup (straight knock out), play the provincials as a second cup competition. Once the season is properly mapped and structured there will be plenty of time for club championships and newcomers to the games will genuinely have a team to follow throughout the year.

Why re-invent the wheel?

That's just as intricate and novel as my plan really. A champions league style format isn't really re-inventing the wheel. It's used in every soccer finals and the champions league, EUFA cup etc.

With the 8 groups of 4 there should be no dead rubber games because if you say the top team gets home advantage for the next round and the 3rd team gets home advantage for the bottom tier comp then all teams should have something to play for in all 3 games.

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I disagree. I have literally no problem with Dublin doing well at all. I'm probably one of the few outside of the pale that kinda likes the Dubs. The league is crap and very poorly attended so it's completely meaningless to most counties. The lads train all year for sometimes two games and maybe get hammered both times. Club schedules are a joke because of the uncertainty around county games.

keeponhurling wrote: »

The Jimmy McGuinness suggestion of splitting the football championship into two tiers makes sense to me.

Really nobody wants to see Div 1 teams playing Div 4 teams

Perhaps provincial winners get go straight to the quarterfinals, as they do now, whereas the back door splits into those trying for Sam, and those going for another trophy.

I think Div 4 teams should be given a shot at the big boys. However getting hammered by them shouldn't spell the end of the summer for them.

Fr Tod Umptious

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

How is his argument not valid?
There is no way counties will all be on the same level but you have to start teams on the same level. For which counties is the championship not the top priority?

The poster said that 'too many counties years end in May\June'
That is not the case.
Prior to 2001 only 8 counties were left after May\June.
Since 2001 only 8 counties are out after May\June

When I say that Championship is not the top priority for some counties it's in the context of a team losing multiple games before their involvement ends

Right now, for teams that do not win their province, if you lose 2 games you are out
That's plenty, some counties are not interested in losing more than that just for the sake of 'The Championship'.

Fr Tod Umptious

threeball wrote: »

If you read my post I didn't ask for a champions league format. I asked for a proper league and straight knock out championship. Teams develop through leagues not through a game or two at championship time

But what's not proper about the current league ?

The divisions are pretty accurate when it comes to ability
Each team plays the same amount of games
They have 7 games to 'develop'

Don't come up with the usual argument that 'teams do not care about the league", because teams that are interested in progression most definitely care about the league

The Lost Sheep

threeball wrote: »

League would start in first week of march with championship starting in mid april. You could play 3 league games then a break week then a round of championship. Everyone would get to play til late july at least with weeks set aside for club championships aswell. Try to have it all wrapped up by the first two weeks in september with the entire gaa season ending by mid november at latest with club finals rounding off the year.

What about club games even in April/May??

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The poster said that 'too many counties years end in May\June'
That is not the case.
Prior to 2001 only 8 counties were left after May\June.
Since 2001 only 8 counties are out after May\June

When I say that Championship is not the top priority for some counties it's in the context of a team losing multiple games before their involvement ends

Right now, for teams that do not win their province, if you lose 2 games you are out
That's plenty, some counties are not interested in losing more than that just for the sake of 'The Championship'.

Too many counties years ended in May/June in both pre 01/post 01.
How is simply saying counties losing 2 games and being out as plenty a good argument. The system that allows this is totally uneven and flawed.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But what's not proper about the current league?

The divisions are pretty accurate when it comes to ability
Each team plays the same amount of games
They have 7 games to 'develop'

Don't come up with the usual argument that 'teams do not care about the league", because teams that are interested in progression most definitely care about the league

Its played off in its entirety before the championship and no matter whats done about it its secondary to whats played in May-September. Change the structure of the season. Play the league throughout the year if not expand the championship to a league system in some form or another.

threeball

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What about club games even in April/May??

Theres 28 weekends between the first week in march and first week in september. More than enough time for a county to play 11 league games, maximum five to six championship games, have break weeks and fit in a club schedule. Rather than training 80% of the time and plaing meaningless challange games they would be all playing competitive games throughout the summer.

If players get injured then tough, the club takes the risk as much as the county do and with less capacity to cast their net to try and cover the loss. Theres as much a chance players get injured in challange or a v b games. Club players get certainty as to when games will be, squad rotation will be used at county so fringe players get game time in less risky games. Its a system where everyone wins and you can hang up the boots in november enjoy the winter, let the body recover and go back into preseason in late jan or early feb.

Clubs dont get close to this consideration at the moment and end up cramming everything into october. With this the county finals could happen in late august/september with ai club semis and finals in october