Relevance of the Old Testament to Christianity

An Ciarraioch

The four Gospels and Acts highlight the kernel of Christ's life and religious message, with the subsequent epistles building on various points expounded and documenting the spread of the religion. But while the Old Testament highlights the Judaic origins of Christianity, does it have significant relevance to the post-Christian religion? After all, the creation myth, Adam and Eve and the Flood are universally interpreted as allegories, and most of the diets and punishments detailed in the earlier books would be unconscionable to any modern society. That said, Psalms and Proverbs must both rank see timeless works of world literature.

Nick Park

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The four Gospels and Acts highlight the kernel of Christ's life and religious message, with the subsequent epistles building on various points expounded and documenting the spread of the religion. But while the Old Testament highlights the Judaic origins of Christianity, does it have significant relevance to the post-Christian religion? After all, the creation myth, Adam and Eve and the Flood are universally interpreted as allegories, and most of the diets and punishments detailed in the earlier books would be unconscionable to any modern society. That said, Psalms and Proverbs must both rank see timeless works of world literature.

I think your question is answered by the hundreds of occasions in which the Old Testament is quoted by the New Testament writers. They obviously saw the coming of Jesus as a continuation of God's redemptive work in Israel.

Peregrinus

Yes, the OT is relevant to Christians - highly relevant. It may well be true that many of the stories are understood as allegories, but why should that diminish their relevance? As Nick points out, the NT writers frequently quote the OT. In addition to that, Christian theology understands Christ and his saving mission in the light of what the OT tells us - if you don't take the OT on board, then you can't understand what the Gospels are about.

(Of course, this works both ways. We read the Gospels in the light of the OT, but we also read the OT in the light of the gospels, as a result of which we read it in ways which, often, are very different from how Jews read it.)

1123heavy

Christians of today are not true Christians but for a few sects. Why ? Well central to the Christian belief is that Jesus pbuh is the son of God, despite it never being recorded once that he said to be the son or any part of god in the bible. In fact he alluded to the opposite, that God is in fact one (not part of any trinity), in Mark 12:29 he says " 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one". Also, If god truly had a son then he would have made mention of it in the previous scriptures. The entire idea of Jesus pbuh being god's son or being god in human form didn't come about until many years after his ascending from the earth and has no solid basis other than misguided assumptions.
More to the issue with Christianity today though, in Matthew 5:17 Jesus pbuh says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.", part of the law of all previous prophets was that alcohol, pork and many other items are expressly forbidden for consumption to mankind and he makes it clear that he has come to reinforce this law. So how is it that after the departing of Jesus pbuh man has himself decided that those items are actually perfectly ok for consumption without any revelation from god dictating such a ruling ?

The relevance of the above to the thread ? Modern day Christians have completely disregarded the old testament in favour of the man made new testament, though even the new testament does not support the core teachings of Christianity today.

Terrlock

1123heavy wrote: »

Christians of today are not true Christians but for a few sects. Why ? Well central to the Christian belief is that Jesus pbuh is the son of God, despite it never being recorded once that he said to be the son or any part of god in the bible. In fact he alluded to the opposite, that God is in fact one (not part of any trinity), in Mark 12:29 he says " 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one". Also, If god truly had a son then he would have made mention of it in the previous scriptures. The entire idea of Jesus pbuh being god's son or being god in human form didn't come about until many years after his ascending from the earth and has no solid basis other than misguided assumptions.
More to the issue with Christianity today though, in Matthew 5:17 Jesus pbuh says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.", part of the law of all previous prophets was that alcohol, pork and many other items are expressly forbidden for consumption to mankind and he makes it clear that he has come to reinforce this law. So how is it that after the departing of Jesus pbuh man has himself decided that those items are actually perfectly ok for consumption without any revelation from god dictating such a ruling ?

The relevance of the above to the thread ? Modern day Christians have completely disregarded the old testament in favour of the man made new testament, though even the new testament does not support the core teachings of Christianity today.

I certainly agree with you about taking the OT seriously. Certainly much of the OT is yet to be fulfilled.

However what do you mean to say that it's never been recorded once that Jesus and God are the same or one?

Take the first Genealogy in the bible. It's in Genesis.

Adam
Seth
Enosh
Kenan
Mahalalel
Jared
Enoch
Methuselah
Lamech
Noah

If you translate the meaning of there Hebrew names into English then you actually get this.

Man
Appointed
Mortal
Sorrow;
The Blessed God
Shall come down
Teaching
His death shall bring
The Despairing
Rest, or comfort.


So there in the very beginning of the Bible, you get the Gospel, hidden in plain view of those willing to seek out it's treasures.

The OT is very important indeed.


John 10:30 - I and the Father are one.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


The OT is full of scripture about Jesus and his role in salvation.

homer911

1123heavy wrote: »

Christians of today are not true Christians but for a few sects. Why ? Well central to the Christian belief is that Jesus pbuh is the son of God, despite it never being recorded once that he said to be the son or any part of god in the bible. In fact he alluded to the opposite, that God is in fact one (not part of any trinity), in Mark 12:29 he says " 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one". Also, If god truly had a son then he would have made mention of it in the previous scriptures. The entire idea of Jesus pbuh being god's son or being god in human form didn't come about until many years after his ascending from the earth and has no solid basis other than misguided assumptions.
More to the issue with Christianity today though, in Matthew 5:17 Jesus pbuh says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.", part of the law of all previous prophets was that alcohol, pork and many other items are expressly forbidden for consumption to mankind and he makes it clear that he has come to reinforce this law. So how is it that after the departing of Jesus pbuh man has himself decided that those items are actually perfectly ok for consumption without any revelation from god dictating such a ruling ?

The relevance of the above to the thread ? Modern day Christians have completely disregarded the old testament in favour of the man made new testament, though even the new testament does not support the core teachings of Christianity today.

Hi 1123heavy, I'm guessing you come from an Islamic background and your knowledge of the Bible might not be great. If you are going to make claims about christians not being true christians and the new testament not supporting the teachings of Christianity, you really need to support those statements with more detail

With regard to the consumption of alcohol, this is never prohibited in the Bible. With regards to pork, Matthew 15:11 states that what goes into a persons mouth does not defile them. In Acts 10:12, Peter had a vision of God providing him with all manner of foods, including those considered uncelan by the Jews

1123heavy

homer911 wrote: »

Hi 1123heavy, I'm guessing you come from an Islamic background and your knowledge of the Bible might not be great. If you are going to make claims about christians not being true christians and the new testament not supporting the teachings of Christianity, you really need to support those statements with more detail

With regard to the consumption of alcohol, this is never prohibited in the Bible. With regards to pork, Matthew 15:11 states that what goes into a persons mouth does not defile them. In Acts 10:12, Peter had a vision of God providing him with all manner of foods, including those considered uncelan by the Jews

My knowledge of the bible is sufficient to doubt all claims that Jesus pbuh is the son of God and that he is to be worshiped. Rather he is a messenger and prophet of God, this is more in line with what he says about himself in the bible.
I have analysed many of the key verses of the chapter of John and none provide sufficient evidence to prove that he is the son of God.

Allow me to explain.

Terrlock mentions John 10:30 in which Jesus pbuh is alleged to have said "I and the father are one". To fully understand this verse you have to look at the context. Let's analyse the verses previous to it so we can put the verse into context. In verse number 23, it states that the Jews entered the temple in Solomon's porch, In verse 24 the Jews gathered around Jesus pbuh and said to him "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." In verse 25 Jesus responds by saying "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me". Verse 26 says that Jesus pbuh said "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep". In verse 27 Jesus pbuh is alleged to say "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me". Then in 28 he says "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.". In 29 he goes on to say "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand". It is then that in verse 30 he states "I and the father are one". Jesus pbuh is referring to the fact that him and his father are one in their aims, but he makes the clear distinction that his father is the greatest (in 29) and doesn't indicate that he is one individual with the father. For example if I say my older brother and I play for the same team, we are one. You will deduce from this that we are on the same side and have the same aims, not that we are one person.

Let's say for arguments sake that Jesus pbuh is indicating that he is a part of the father. In John 17:21 Jesus pbuh is alleged to have said to his 12 apostles "My father is in me, I in thee and we are one". Taking your view point (the same word "one" is used here) this indicates that all 14 individuals are one and Jesus pbuh is indicating that there are 14 Gods, do you mean to say there are 14 gods now ? It should be clear that he means one in purpose.
Further in John 17:23 Jesus pbuh tells his apostles that "I am in you and you are in me and we are one", meaning one in purpose.


Very often I hear christians argue that as Jesus pbuh was born without a physical father, this indicates his divinity as God must be his father from the immaculate conception. This is false logic when you look at the scriptures as a whole. As it is also believed by the same christians that Adam pbuh was the first human and he was created without any mother or father, taking the logic applied to Jesus' case, Adam pbuh is more of a God than Jesus as he had no parents, not only no father.


Edited to address your justification of the consumption of pork and alcohol. It is prohibited in Leviticus 11:7-8 "And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you." Also in Isaiah 66:17 it states “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord." Alcohol is prohibited in Ephesians 5:18,"Be not drunk with wine". There are also countless other verses that refer to alcohol not being fit for human consumption. As I mentioned in my previous post, Jesus pbuh makes it clear that he came to reinforce the law of the previous prophets and not to abolish it, therefore the prohibition of both still stands with Jesus pbuh. You bring up the modern day christian argument that the verse of Matthew 15:11, "It's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." It is not what goes into the mouth that makes a person unclean. It is what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean." This verse simply states that what goes a person comes out, how do you deduce from it that pork and alcohol have suddenly become permissible for consumption ? And of what relevance is an alleged vision of Peter when the solid evidence from Jesus pbuh himself, God and all the previous prophets clearly forbid the consumption of such items ?

P.S. I'm aware that I have quoted the old testament in the last paragraph which you may not agree with, but Jesus pbuh in the new testament clearly states that all previous laws are still to be followed, therefore the stuff of the old testament has no valid reason to be disregarded.
And yes I am a muslim, not of blind faith but one who has thoroughly researched the scriptures of old and from the compelling evidence and factual proof I am happy that the Quran is the final revelation from God. It speaks highly of Jesus pbuh (hence the reason for the pbuh whenever I mention him) as a messenger of God and the bible itself actually supports this. I often feel like I am more of a christian myself than most christians, I pray the exact same way Jesus pbuh did (and all previous prophets) and I follow the laws of the bible more than most christian groups. The Quran outlines many of the miracles that Jesus pbuh did through God's will, for example breathing life into birds and talking in the cradle. These appear in the gospel of Thomas but were actually hidden from the and only discovered in an Egyptian monastery in the last century, unknown to any man, yet they were spoken of in the Quran 1400 years ago when no one had any knowledge of the gospel of thomas which was hidden.

Nick Park

1123heavy wrote: »

Very often I hear christians argue that as Jesus pbuh was born without a physical father, this indicates his divinity as God must be his father from the immaculate conception.

Here's where you're running into problems when, as a Muslim, you try to criticise another religion that you're not fully conversant with.

The immaculate conception has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, or whether God was His Father. The immaculate conception, which you have evidently confused with the virgin birth, is a Roman Catholic doctrine that teaches that Mary was conceived as a baby without sin.

Nick Park

1123heavy wrote: »

Alcohol is prohibited in Ephesians 5:18,"Be not drunk with wine". There are also countless other verses that refer to alcohol not being fit for human consumption.

No, there aren't any Bible verses that refer to alcohol as not being fit for human consumption.

And the verse you quoted, as any one can see, warns against drunkenness, it does not prohibit the consumption of alcohol.

There are also verses that warn against gluttony. You might as well argue that therefore food is prohibited.

1123heavy

Nick Park wrote: »

Here's where you're running into problems when, as a Muslim, you try to criticise another religion that you're not fully conversant with.

The immaculate conception has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus, or whether God was His Father. The immaculate conception, which you have evidently confused with the virgin birth, is a Roman Catholic doctrine that teaches that Mary was conceived as a baby without sin.

I criticise no one, I like an open debate where people discuss things based on facts. In Islam the immaculate concpetion has a similar meaning to that of catholicism and both Mary and Jesus pbut were born via immaculate conception, I was referring to the christians who have argued with me that the fact no man was involved in his birth indicates God is his father. Whether or not this is the official catholic stance isn't relevant as it's what is often used as a means of arguing that he is the son of god.

Nick Park

1123heavy wrote: »

I criticise no one,

That is untrue. You accuse most Christians of not being true Christians. That is criticism.

You then proceed to argue with Christian doctrines, even though you apparently don't understand them and muddle up the Virgin Birth and the Immaculate Conception.

You also quote the Christian Scriptures to claim that they say something that they obviously do not say (Ephesians 5:18 quite obviously does not prohibit the consumption of alcohol).

Delirium

1123heavy wrote: »

Christians of today are not true Christians but for a few sects. Why ? Well central to the Christian belief is that Jesus pbuh is the son of God, despite it never being recorded once that he said to be the son or any part of god in the bible. In fact he alluded to the opposite, that God is in fact one (not part of any trinity), in Mark 12:29 he says " 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one". Also, If god truly had a son then he would have made mention of it in the previous scriptures. The entire idea of Jesus pbuh being god's son or being god in human form didn't come about until many years after his ascending from the earth and has no solid basis other than misguided assumptions.
More to the issue with Christianity today though, in Matthew 5:17 Jesus pbuh says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.", part of the law of all previous prophets was that alcohol, pork and many other items are expressly forbidden for consumption to mankind and he makes it clear that he has come to reinforce this law. So how is it that after the departing of Jesus pbuh man has himself decided that those items are actually perfectly ok for consumption without any revelation from god dictating such a ruling ?

The relevance of the above to the thread ? Modern day Christians have completely disregarded the old testament in favour of the man made new testament, though even the new testament does not support the core teachings of Christianity today.

MOD NOTE

Please keep to the topic, 'Relevance of the Old Testament to Christianity'.

Also, it is against the charter (outside of the Existence of God superthread) to claim God doesn't exist/ Jesus wasn't the son of God.

Thanks for your attention.

1123heavy

Nick Park wrote: »

No, there aren't any Bible verses that refer to alcohol as not being fit for human consumption.

“Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. Leviticus 10:9


"he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried." Numbers 6:3

"You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 29:6

"Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean," Judges 13:4

There countless more, and Jesus pbuh clearly indicates all previous laws are still to be followed so saying that because it's the old testament doesn't get you very far. Cherry picking what you want to follow and trying to find justifications (yet to see a valid one) to do what is prohibited is not what the Lord has asked us to do.

The old testament should be very relevant but unfortunately christians ignore it for very unconvincing reasons.

Apologies if I went outside the charter.

Nick Park

1123heavy wrote: »

“Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. Leviticus 10:9


"he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried." Numbers 6:3

"You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God." Deuteronomy 29:6

"Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean," Judges 13:4

There countless more, and Jesus pbuh clearly indicates all previous laws are still to be followed so saying that because it's the old testament doesn't get you very far. Cherry picking what you want to follow and trying to find justifications (yet to see a valid one) to do what is prohibited is not what the Lord has asked us to do.

The old testament should be very relevant but unfortunately christians ignore it for very unconvincing reasons.

Apologies if I went outside the charter.

Unfortunately you are the one who who is cherry picking. And you are doing so by citing verses without having bothered to read them in context.

Leviticus 10:9 is addressed, not to all Israelites, but only to the priests who were the descendants of Aaron. Furthermore, the command to abstain from alcohol was only while they were serving in the Tabernacle (or Tent of Meeting). The rest of the time there was no such prohibition placed on them.

Numbers 6:3 is specifically addressed to anyone who wanted to become a Nazirite (a special vow by which people abstained from several things, including having a haircut). This vow was often for a limited period, after which the restrictions were lifted. That is why, in Numbers 6:20, after describing the ceremony that marked the end of the Nazarite vow, it says "After that, the Nazirite may drink wine." Do you see that there is no way that this could ever be interpreted as a general prohibition of alcohol?

Deuteronomy 29:6 is clearly not what you claim, as we can see by the preceding verse. "During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink." God was saying that the 40 years in the wilderness had been a miraculous time when the Israelites managed without being provided the normal basics of life - clothing, shoes, bread and wine. They lived on manna and water.

To use Deuteronomy 29:6 as a prohibition against wine would also mean you would have to prohibit buying new clothes, changing your footwear, or eating bread. It is sheer biblical illiteracy to pretend that it prohibits anyone today from drinking alcohol.

Judges 13:4 was addressed to a woman who was about to be pregnant, and the reason, as is specifically stated in the following verse, was that her unborn son was to be under the Nazarite vow. Therefore he was not to cut his hair or drink alcohol while he was a Nazarite.

There countless more,

I don't need you to quote countless verses in the bible that are a general prohibition of alcohol. Just one would do - but you haven't provided it yet.

Terrlock

1123heavy wrote: »

My knowledge of the bible is sufficient to doubt all claims that Jesus pbuh is the son of God and that he is to be worshiped. Rather he is a messenger and prophet of God, this is more in line with what he says about himself in the bible.
I have analysed many of the key verses of the chapter of John and none provide sufficient evidence to prove that he is the son of God.

Allow me to explain.

Terrlock mentions John 10:30 in which Jesus pbuh is alleged to have said "I and the father are one". To fully understand this verse you have to look at the context. Let's analyse the verses previous to it so we can put the verse into context. In verse number 23, it states that the Jews entered the temple in Solomon's porch, In verse 24 the Jews gathered around Jesus pbuh and said to him "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." In verse 25 Jesus responds by saying "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me". Verse 26 says that Jesus pbuh said "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep". In verse 27 Jesus pbuh is alleged to say "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me". Then in 28 he says "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.". In 29 he goes on to say "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand". It is then that in verse 30 he states "I and the father are one". Jesus pbuh is referring to the fact that him and his father are one in their aims, but he makes the clear distinction that his father is the greatest (in 29) and doesn't indicate that he is one individual with the father. For example if I say my older brother and I play for the same team, we are one. You will deduce from this that we are on the same side and have the same aims, not that we are one person.

Let's say for arguments sake that Jesus pbuh is indicating that he is a part of the father. In John 17:21 Jesus pbuh is alleged to have said to his 12 apostles "My father is in me, I in thee and we are one". Taking your view point (the same word "one" is used here) this indicates that all 14 individuals are one and Jesus pbuh is indicating that there are 14 Gods, do you mean to say there are 14 gods now ? It should be clear that he means one in purpose.
Further in John 17:23 Jesus pbuh tells his apostles that "I am in you and you are in me and we are one", meaning one in purpose.


Very often I hear christians argue that as Jesus pbuh was born without a physical father, this indicates his divinity as God must be his father from the immaculate conception. This is false logic when you look at the scriptures as a whole. As it is also believed by the same christians that Adam pbuh was the first human and he was created without any mother or father, taking the logic applied to Jesus' case, Adam pbuh is more of a God than Jesus as he had no parents, not only no father.


Edited to address your justification of the consumption of pork and alcohol. It is prohibited in Leviticus 11:7-8 "And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you." Also in Isaiah 66:17 it states “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord." Alcohol is prohibited in Ephesians 5:18,"Be not drunk with wine". There are also countless other verses that refer to alcohol not being fit for human consumption. As I mentioned in my previous post, Jesus pbuh makes it clear that he came to reinforce the law of the previous prophets and not to abolish it, therefore the prohibition of both still stands with Jesus pbuh. You bring up the modern day christian argument that the verse of Matthew 15:11, "It's not what goes into the mouth that defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." It is not what goes into the mouth that makes a person unclean. It is what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean." This verse simply states that what goes a person comes out, how do you deduce from it that pork and alcohol have suddenly become permissible for consumption ? And of what relevance is an alleged vision of Peter when the solid evidence from Jesus pbuh himself, God and all the previous prophets clearly forbid the consumption of such items ?

P.S. I'm aware that I have quoted the old testament in the last paragraph which you may not agree with, but Jesus pbuh in the new testament clearly states that all previous laws are still to be followed, therefore the stuff of the old testament has no valid reason to be disregarded.
And yes I am a muslim, not of blind faith but one who has thoroughly researched the scriptures of old and from the compelling evidence and factual proof I am happy that the Quran is the final revelation from God. It speaks highly of Jesus pbuh (hence the reason for the pbuh whenever I mention him) as a messenger of God and the bible itself actually supports this. I often feel like I am more of a christian myself than most christians, I pray the exact same way Jesus pbuh did (and all previous prophets) and I follow the laws of the bible more than most christian groups. The Quran outlines many of the miracles that Jesus pbuh did through God's will, for example breathing life into birds and talking in the cradle. These appear in the gospel of Thomas but were actually hidden from the and only discovered in an Egyptian monastery in the last century, unknown to any man, yet they were spoken of in the Quran 1400 years ago when no one had any knowledge of the gospel of thomas which was hidden.

Hi 1123Heavy,

The Bible indeed does teach that Jesus is God. In Revelation he is revealed as the Alpha and the Omega. In the very beginning of John really testifies to this.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

You need to have ears to here and eyes to see the truth in the word of God.

John 14:9 - Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

As I have shown you the Gospel is even present in Genesis in the First Genealogy of the Bible.

I also agree with you however that the Law hasn't been done away with.

A lot of people think that because of they believe in Christ then they are saved and that's it...the can go on sinning now and ignore the law because they are saved and then live their lives according to the way they believe is good.

They don't look for instruction from God on how they should be living their lives.

We are told the we need to believe on Jesus and that means to repent of our own ways and to live not under the law but live as God intended us to live.

We don't need the law because it shouldn't even be in our hearts to even think about breaking it.

If Christians are knowingly still breaking the Law then I don't believe they are as saved as they think they are.

If you Believe in Christ then really believe and learn what his word is and how we are saved to Do the Lords works not our own.


Muslim faith says that you can be saved by doing Good works...yet this can't be true.

The bible teaches that if you break one of the commandments you break them all and are fallen.

No matter how much good you do, you can't make up for going against God.

Say for instance you have an unfaithful wife, and she begs you to forgive her.

Even if you do forgive her and she is faithful and good to you there still is always that unclean stain left behind that she was unfaithful to you. It can take a very long time before the hurt can be healed.

How do you wash that uncleanness of sin away.

We are thought that only the blood of Christ has the power too wash away our uncleanness and sin.

Christ has to be God as only God has the power to really wash away our sin. God himself sacrificed his own flesh so we could be saved.

He endured torture and death on the cross to bear our punishment.

You can't be saved by good works. As if people are saved according to their own merits this would lead to Pride one of the roots of all sin

There is none Good but God.

Believing in Jesus does not forsake the Law. It gives you a new heart so you will be strong in him and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Ultimate Hero, he dies so all might be saved.

Salvation is a free gift of grace from God, if we accept this free gift, repent of our wicked ways and then do the works given to us by God before the creation of the world.

Then and only then are we living on the righteous path.

Terrlock

1123heavy wrote: »

“Drink no wine or strong drink, you or your sons with you, when you go into the tent of meeting, lest you die. It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations. Leviticus 10:9

"

Jesus drank wine with the apostles.

He also turned water into wine at the wedding so others may drink from it.

Jesus doesn't seem to have a very big problem with wine at all.