Test drove a ridiculously powerful hot hatch yesterday...a bit underwhelmed

MTBD

I test drove a 280bhp Seat Cupra R yesterday. It's a very well made and powerful car. Nicely detailed, high specced and great value for money.

Apparently it's also very fast. I say apparently because aside from watching the speedometer rise quite rapidly it was actually a rather dull experience. It just felt like any other car you would hop into. No engine growl, aside from the artificial piped exhaust sounds when you are in Cupra mode. Power is delivered in quite a dull way, almost diesel like in terms of torque and when I changed up. Although I probably could have revved it a bit harder. Ride seemed good too. The car was so refined that even when you are moving at high speed it doesn't seem like it.

I can't imagine how fast you actually need to be going for it to feel fast which males me wonder what's the point? A hot hatch or even a sporty car of any type should feel special every time you are in it imho.

Am I missing the point or are manufacturers? Aren't hot hatches supposed to make it feel like you are driving a fast and exciting car? Shouldn't there be an element of occasion when you sit in and make you want to go back for more? That your car is everything those who cheaped out and bought the dieself economy version isn't? Is being fast just for the sake of being fast now the point?

I drove a pretty ropey Alfa GT just beforehand and the more I drove that the more I liked it. Despite the fact it had been mistreated(not mechanically) a bit it still felt like a really special car. It was 120bhp less than the Seat but it actually felt like a sports car as you had to rev it to get it going plus the low seating position helped. I was actually grinning afterwards as opposed to thinking "I thought 280bhp would be more exciting". I know the Cupra would be fun on a good windy road but so would any sporty car. So if it's not fun all the time, then what is the point?

MuppetCheck

I think they are all going this way in a big to make the cars more rounded and appeal more to the masses but at the same time they are losing some of the fizz. It's all well and good having the power but it just proves power isn't everything.

Supergurrier

Nothing a new exhaust system wouldn't fix

edburg

VW group have always been like this, brilliantly made but boring and leave you feeling flat and underwhelmed.

pippip

So what modern day hot hatch could you buy that would give you the thrill expected of it? Have they all gone flat?

dr.fuzzenstein

Did you say artificial exhaust noise piped in?
That alone would put me off any car. That is even worse than fake vinyl hiss.
Its like hanging a paint by numbers Mona Lisa in the Louvre and charging people to see it.
Whoever invented that sh*t is obviously evil.

MTBD

pippip wrote: »

So what modern day hot hatch could you buy that would give you the thrill expected of it? Have they all gone flat?

Well that's what I'm wondering too? Are they all like this now? From what I gathered from the sales man the golf gti and golf r are basically the same in terms of character. I am no fan of VW so none of this surprises me. But when you read magazine reviews they talk about the golf as if it's the best, most exciting reasonably priced car in the world.

Plus I don't even think the greatest exhaust system you can buy would make these engines sound exciting. Modern F1 cars even sound dull with current technology.

frozenfrozen

piped in exhaust sounds is like putting playing cards through the spokes of your bicycle to make it sound like it has an engine

MuppetCheck

pippip wrote: »

So what modern day hot hatch could you buy that would give you the thrill expected of it? Have they all gone flat?

Something from Renault .

Supergurrier

Renault and Ford do fun hot hatches

rizzodun

Nothing beats the hot hatches of the 80's or 90's IMO, there was something about a Renault 5GT turbo or Peugeot 205 GTI that said ' I can do an insane amount of speed for my size (or at least seem like I can) but so much as ignore me for one second and I'll put you over a ditch'

How about the newer Civic Type R, are they still a bit mental?

Special Circumstances

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Did you say artificial exhaust noise piped in?
That alone would put me off any car. That is even worse than fake vinyl hiss.
Its like hanging a paint by numbers Mona Lisa in the Louvre and charging people to see it.
Whoever invented that sh*t is obviously evil.

Who was the first to use it as standard - BMW M5?

kona

I'd suggest driving something not made by vag. Focus st megane 225 etc.

vectra

MuppetCheck wrote: »

Something from Renault .

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwOSsYWfcmo

Asmooh

You call 0-100 in 5,7-5,9 fast?
I wonder what you are used to


"I thought 280bhp would be more exciting"


try: S2000, Supra MK4 twin turbo, Impreza, EVO 10, GT-R Corvette C5/C6, etc..

dr.fuzzenstein

Supergurrier wrote: »

Renault and Ford do fun hot hatches

Yeah, which one if those will break your heart and your wallet and leave you stranded...

Asmooh

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Yeah, which one if those will break your heart and your wallet and leave you stranded...

Ford GT > Focus RS

dr.fuzzenstein

Asmooh wrote: »

You call 0-100 in 5,7-5,9 fast?
I wonder what you are used to


"I thought 280bhp would be more exciting"


try: S2000, Supra MK4 twin turbo, Impreza, EVO 10, GT-R Corvette C5/C6, etc..

Personally, yes. Yes I would. What do you drive that is faster? :eek:

Asmooh wrote: »

Ford GT > Focus RS

What about them? :P

Asmooh

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Personally, yes. Yes I would. What do you drive that is faster? :eek:



What about them? :P

Ford GT better than any focus RS, but focus RS is not a bad car

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Personally, yes. Yes I would. What do you drive that is faster? :eek:

It doesn't matter what I drive

dr.fuzzenstein

Asmooh wrote: »

Ford GT better than any focus RS, but focus RS is not a bad car


It doesn't matter what I drive

With the MX5, speed doesn't come in to it, I know, we have one. 0-60 in eventually.

Asmooh

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

With the MX5, speed doesn't come in to it, I know, we have one. 0-60 in eventually.

The BBR MX5 does 0-100 in 5.5 with 220bhp same as the 280bhp Cupra R

Interslice

Hp is over-rated. On a proper twisty road you don't need much hp to go fast. You would be mad altogether to ever use the full 265hp. My car has only 140hp but it would be a rare occasion you get the pedal to the floor on the back roads about here. Grip, nice steering feel, light chassis, handling and brake and throttle response is where the fun lies. If launching out of traffic lights leaving heavy doddery diesels in your wake is your driving buzz then you go for big tyres and high hp.

edburg

Renault break your wallet, Well anything French has a habit of breaking your wallet.

Focus RS is nice car, one of few ford's I like. New astra opc is all diffed up now looks a good drive to (although biased to that as own H opc with diff and 280bhp)

Maybe the smaller engined fiesta/Corsa turbo's be good fun, seem to be getting a few good write ups.

As said above doubt you get that scary/exciting feel from a car like you did with 80/90's hatch's.

Other option be breaking bank and getting something v8/V10 and leaving normal life behind

Constant Curiosity

mx5 is not about speed, its about the dynamic and feedback when you are driving, i miss that with new cars

Asmooh

antongavrikov wrote: »

mx5 is not about speed, its about the dynamic and feedback when you are driving, i miss that with new cars

+1 i totally agree

dr.fuzzenstein

Asmooh wrote: »

The BBR MX5 does 0-100 in 5.5 with 220bhp same as the 280bhp Cupra R

OK, that is a bit faster than our 00 1.6. :pac:

Asmooh

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, that is a bit faster than our 00 1.6. :pac:

que? 2000 1.8 does 8.0 thats not a bit anymore hehe, 2.0 2005: 7,9

just SC/Turbo your 1.6

bazz26

pippip wrote: »

So what modern day hot hatch could you buy that would give you the thrill expected of it? Have they all gone flat?

The current Fiesta ST is supposed to be very entertaining.

MTBD

antongavrikov wrote: »

mx5 is not about speed, its about the dynamic and feedback when you are driving, i miss that with new cars

Bingo, they are better in every way but completely soulless. Having fun is surely the point, not just a Willy waving contest at traffic lights. Although showing off appears to be the new concept of fun.

Speed is a sensation more than anything. You're moving at 700mph in a plane and you can't feel anything. 50mph on a dodgy road can feel lime you are about to bend space time.

EazyD

Hot hatches today are much softer than they used to be, the idea being they are more usable for everyday driving.

Sure look at the FN type R civic as one example. A complete step backwards from the EP3 in terms of driving dynamics but an all round more comfortable car. Sadly it's the way it's gone.

CianRyan

This thread is why I like old cars, my own Eunos Roadster is not a fast car but it'll spin you in the dry if you're not paying attention. The noise of the engine, the gearbox, the heat shield rattle ( :pac: ) and the smell of petrol and rubber when you push it a bit hard.
There's a sense of occasion to the car, with your arse basically on the road.

If you want a reliable, fast and entertaining hot hatch, walk right on by the new cars in the main dealers, put €30,000 back in the bank and buy an EK9.

dr.fuzzenstein

Asmooh wrote: »

que? 2000 1.8 does 8.0 thats not a bit anymore hehe, 2.0 2005: 7,9

just SC/Turbo your 1.6

Couldn't do that at the monent, there is something wrong with it, it lost all power, doesn't like to rev and from 3rd gear onwards it doesn't want to go at all. I can't find anything wrong with it. 0-60 on that right now is an eternity.
It's actually slower than my diesel CMax. By a wide margin.
Throwing a turbo on that won't do the engine any good.

Asmooh

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Couldn't do that at the monent, there is something wrong with it, it lost all power, doesn't like to rev and from 3rd gear onwards it doesn't want to go at all. I can't find anything wrong with it. 0-60 on that right now is an eternity.
It's actually slower than my diesel CMax. By a wide margin.
Throwing a turbo on that won't do the engine any good.

Just read the ecu and see whatever comes up

Constant Curiosity

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

With the MX5, speed doesn't come in to it, I know, we have one. 0-60 in eventually.

you say eventually although your car is broken? i see... well, i have mk1 1.8 and 1.6 imports (non turbo or sc atm) and they aren't fast, but if you are planing on keeping the economy 1.8 have that little extra that 1.6 is missing. pre 94 1.6 have 115 bhp when post 94 1.6 models were reduced to 90 bhp, thats when 1.8 came into market with 130 bhp... best is get a pre 94 1.6 and turbo it, as that was initially the mazdas plan but they took turbo off to reduce costs, sadly...

kona

Asmooh wrote: »

You call 0-100 in 5,7-5,9 fast?
I wonder what you are used to


"I thought 280bhp would be more exciting"


try: S2000, Supra MK4 twin turbo, Impreza, EVO 10, GT-R Corvette C5/C6, etc..

S2000 not even in the same galaxy as a supra or gtr speed.

robbiew

EazyD wrote: »

Hot hatches today are much softer than they used to be, the idea being they are more usable for everyday driving.

Sure look at the FN type R civic as one example. A complete step backwards from the EP3 in terms of driving dynamics but an all round more comfortable car. Sadly it's the way it's gone.

A buddy has one up the country, and he put on a mugen rear spoiler, and i don't think you can even see out the back window now.. nice interior tho, even tho it has 200bhp same as my 9y/o golf i bet on the smaller roads my golf would feel more grounded, id prob only be reading his rear plates on the straight tho..
But the smaller roads are where the hatch back really comes into it's own imo..

Asmooh

kona wrote: »

S2000 not even in the same galaxy as a supra or gtr speed.

I agree the S2000 is slower indeed as OEM. but who drives OEM?

Asmooh

antongavrikov wrote: »

you say eventually although your car is broken? i see... well, i have mk1 1.8 and 1.6 imports (non turbo or sc atm) and they aren't fast, but if you are planing on keeping the economy 1.8 have that little extra that 1.6 is missing. pre 94 1.6 have 115 bhp when post 94 1.6 models were reduced to 90 bhp, thats when 1.8 came into market with 130 bhp... best is get a pre 94 1.6 and turbo it, as that was initially the mazdas plan but they took turbo off to reduce costs, sadly...

Not only look at power but also weight..


1989-1992 MX5: 1.6, 116hp, 950kg, 0-100: 8.8s
1995-1998 MX5: 1.6, 90hp, 965kg, 0-100: 10,6s
1994-1998 MX5: 1.8, 131hp, 990kg, 0-100: 8.7s
1998-2001 MX5: 1.6, 110hp, 990kg, 0-100: 9.7s
1998-2001 MX5: 1.8, 140hp, 1000kg, 0-100: 8.0s
2001-2004 MX5: 1.6, 110hp, 1010kg, 0-100: 9,7s
2001-2004 MX5: 1.8, 146hp, 1040kg, 0-100: 8,5s
2005-2009 MX5: 1.8, 126hp, 1055kg, 0-100: 9,4s
2005-2009 MX5: 2.0, 160hp, 1055kg ,0-100: 7,9s
2009-2013 MX5: 1.8, 128hp, 1000kg, 0-100: 9,9s
2009-2013 MX5: 2.0, 160hp, 1015kg, 0-100: 7,6s
2013-2015 MX5: 1.8, 126hp, 1050kg, 0-100: 9,0s
2013-2015 MX5: 2.0, 160hp, 1055kg, 0-100: 7,6s
2015+ MX5: 1.5, 131hp, 1090kg, 0-100: 8.3s
2015+ MX5: 2.0, 160hp, 1122kg, 0-100: 7,3s

corglass

Asmooh wrote: »

You call 0-100 in 5,7-5,9 fast?
I wonder what you are used to


"I thought 280bhp would be more exciting"


try: S2000, Supra MK4 twin turbo, Impreza, EVO 10, GT-R Corvette C5/C6, etc..

Sub 6s 0-60 is fast.

Brasso

Asmooh wrote: »

Not only look at power but also weight..

The new mx5 will be the same weight as the original won't it? And there's the GT86, so some manufacturers are still building cars that focus on fun over headline numbers.

Asmooh

Brasso wrote: »

The new mx5 will be the same weight as the original won't it? And there's the GT86, so some manufacturers are still building cars that focus on fun over headline numbers.

2015+ MX5: 1.5, 131hp, 1090kg, 0-100: 8.3s
2015+ MX5: 2.0, 160hp, 1122kg, 0-100: 7,3s


vs 950 kilo thats mine

kona

Asmooh wrote: »

I agree the S2000 is slower indeed as OEM. but who drives OEM?

It's slower no matter what , unless you start changing engines. There's not much that will touch a modified r35 GTR to 60.

Either way , a mx5 ( modified or not) , gtr , supra ,s2k are not hot hatches.

Just out of interest what power (proven on a dyno) will a turbo mx5 make? I can't imagine it making much more than 200 hp.

Asmooh

kona wrote: »

It's slower no matter what , unless you start changing engines. There's not much that will touch a modified r35 GTR to 60.

Either way , a mx5 ( modified or not) , gtr , supra ,s2k are not hot hatches.

Just out of interest what power (proven on a dyno) will a turbo mx5 make? I can't imagine it making much more than 200 hp.

The original BBR turbo has 220bhp.

1.6L @7psi, 215 hp & 203 tq
236whp, ~14.5psi / Begi Churbo, Stock 1.6L
99 t28 churbo 16psi 273whp, 246wht
245whp, 217wht 16psi
278whp, 244wht NB1 with GT2860R at 12.5 psi.
18psi 336whp and 20psi 349whp
234 ft/lb 224 whp 14psi

CianRyan

kona wrote: »

It's slower no matter what , unless you start changing engines. There's not much that will touch a modified r35 GTR to 60.

Either way , a mx5 ( modified or not) , gtr , supra ,s2k are not hot hatches.

Just out of interest what power (proven on a dyno) will a turbo mx5 make? I can't imagine it making much more than 200 hp.

The original 1.6 can take 250 all day on standard internals.
The same engine was found in the 323 GTR and GTX with a turbo and 4 wheel drive.
Not into rally I take it?

kona

Asmooh wrote: »

The original BBR turbo has 220bhp.

236whp, ~14.5psi / Begi Churbo, Stock 1.6L
99 t28 churbo 16psi 273whp, 246wht

They seem to do a 285 bhp one too, that would be a very very nice car but at 30k sterling? I'd be saving a bit more for a r35.

As hot hatches go, in standard trim, Renault and ford are miles ahead. You cannot compare a mx5 to focus st or a cupra R.

kona

CianRyan wrote: »

The original 1.6 can take 250 all day on standard internals.
The same engine was found in the 323 GTR and GTX with a turbo and 4 wheel drive.
Not into rally I take it?

No not really. So you can run close to a bar on a standard mx5 engine?

Asmooh

kona wrote: »

No not really. So you can run close to a bar on a standard mx5 engine?

yeah kinda

CianRyan

kona wrote: »

No not really. So you can run close to a bar on a standard mx5 engine?

Yep, they're build strong with low compression because they were designed to take a turbo.

You don't need to spend 30k either. Haha
€2000 would see you with a lovely turbo build.

Asmooh

CianRyan wrote: »

Yep, they're build strong with low compression because they were designed to take a turbo.

You don't need to spend 30k either. Haha
€2000 would see you with a lovely turbo build.

well... yes and no :P

new rods + piston = 1200 euro
new cams = 800
arp head bolts = 150
arp rod bots = 180


but those rods and pistos are needed when you want over 250hp ofc
replacing the bolts with arp is something you should always do

CianRyan

Asmooh wrote: »

well... yes and no :P

new rods + piston = 1200 euro
new cams = 800
arp head bolts = 150
arp rod bots = 180


but those rods and pistos are needed when you want over 250hp ofc
replacing the bolts with arp is something you should always do

I said 250 on standard internals, if you want new internals and you build it yourself it's probably €3500-€5000.

Asmooh

CianRyan wrote: »

I said 250 on standard internals, if you want new internals and you build it yourself it's probably €3500-€5000.

true true