Consequences of increasing your dairy herd a.k.a. the size of your meal bill

mahoney_j

freedominacup wrote: »

Just a note on the 130 cows per man. One man running 130 cows is not the same as three men on 350-400. The second scenario is very doable on a sustained basis. The first is close to impossible to sustain, not impossible to do for a short period but sustaining it year in year out I don't think so.

I think an aful lot of lads don't fully comprehend the extra time and work that is involved in going to 100 cows and beyond in a compact calving scenario .u need good facslities full stop and expanding without them is nuts,part time help is even hard justified at that number due to cost.maby I'm a lazy fooker but I'll spend the money in yard as I expand to 110/120 cows max year by year rather than chasing to get there in a 100 m sprint.even at that no I will be one man show with contractors doing most of slurry,silage ,reseeding and early fertiliser .simple efficient one man show is what is required here ,no interest in working all hours watching family grow up and been a busy fool

Mehaffey1

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Where are u farming again?

Methven in Canterbury New Zealand. One of the few non irrigated areas of Canterbury because of our altitude at 300m beside the Southern Alps.

Deepsouthwest

Mehaffey1 wrote: »

Methven in Canterbury New Zealand. One of the few non irrigated areas of Canterbury because of our altitude at 300m beside the Southern Alps.

Ok, I thought u might be somewhere in the golden vale!

Muckit

Timmaay wrote: »

I'm only properly appreciating this fully now myself, in GGs and my case our dad's are still very active on the farm, effectively the labour element has been doubled. In comparison to alot of the rest of you's I'll be expanding rapidly .....

With all this talk of expansion, yourself and gg need to be getting active in the bedroom to address labour issues in 10-15years time!

frazzledhome

stretch film wrote: »

Exporting slurry to satisfy nitrates?

Sell stock at back end to keep in line

frazzledhome

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Woo! That's high for whole farm, u need every nook and cranny pushing out grass at that rate. Are u making all ur own winter feed from this ground as well?

Yes all cylinders need to be firing. Will off load some Aut calvers and in calf heifers in Sept.

All silage this year as we had a good carry over of silage. Tbf farm growing well at 6.66 tonnes/ha grown to date. Some paddocks have done over 10 already.

Really early farm with no waste and access to all paddocks bar 24 ac cut off with mway makes life easier

frazzledhome

Muckit wrote: »

With all this talk of expansion, yourself and gg need to be getting active in the bedroom to address labour issues in 10-15years time!

Lol often said to Mes Frazz that we didn't start breeding in time

kevthegaff

Some lads have it fair handy with the father helping out, the mother cooking 3 times a day and hell some of them doing the paperwork, ive been on my own from startup but listening to ye lads im starting to miss being at home!!

frazzledhome

kevthegaff wrote: »

Some lads have it fair handy with the father helping out, the mother cooking 3 times a day and hell some of them doing the paperwork, ive been on my own from startup but listening to ye lads im starting to miss being at home!!

All you need now is someone to ride around the house

jaymla627

Whats lads plans here who are upping numbers by say by over 30% in the case of another spring like 2013 coming of a year like 2012, upping numbers here considerably too but at the same time putting away a nice bank of silage in the form of surplus paddocks and pit with a nice bit of meal going in so more silage can be got of the milking block....
In general are lads even considering this our just playing it by ear and hoping to get away with a high stocking rate and just enough conserved feed for say a 10-12 week wintering period

Greengrass1

kevthegaff wrote: »

Some lads have it fair handy with the father helping out, the mother cooking 3 times a day and hell some of them doing the paperwork, ive been on my own from startup but listening to ye lads im starting to miss being at home!!

Sure MJ has it handier than all of us

Greengrass1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Whats lads plans here who are upping numbers by say by over 30% in the case of another spring like 2013 coming of a year like 2012, upping numbers here considerably too but at the same time putting away a nice bank of silage in the form of surplus paddocks and pit with a nice bit of meal going in so more silage can be got of the milking block....
In general are lads even considering this our just playing it by ear and hoping to get away with a high stocking rate and just enough conserved feed for say a 10-12 week wintering period

Nope I won't be going up any more after next yr unless I secure land for silage ir get heifers reared.
If I did that my MP will be at 3.5 (very doable due to winter milk) and overall farm at 2.6 which I reckon should give me enough silage to feed ciws from 1st Nov to 1st April if I have to

Milked out

jaymla627 wrote: »

Whats lads plans here who are upping numbers by say by over 30% in the case of another spring like 2013 coming of a year like 2012, upping numbers here considerably too but at the same time putting away a nice bank of silage in the form of surplus paddocks and pit with a nice bit of meal going in so more silage can be got of the milking block....
In general are lads even considering this our just playing it by ear and hoping to get away with a high stocking rate and just enough conserved feed for say a 10-12 week wintering period

Applying max fert allowance and get as much out of slurry to grow as much grass as we can, and bale or pit instead of top If it gets ahead. Prob use meal if price ratio with milk and ration is right to fill gaps during main grazing season. Get rid of passengers, no holding culls or that. Will buy in maize if need to buy forage or find ground suitable for heifers and silage so can graze as much as possible and get more out of ground taken for winter feed

Timmaay

Bought in a 2nd cut here last year at a very reasonable price (low demand for it), was very tax efficient with the high milk price last year as well, still got a pit full now and will roll that over moving forward.

mahoney_j

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Sure MJ has it handier than all of us

Course I do sure I do fook all!!,work smarter not harder..out the gap every evening by 6 I click bar silage etc.wouldnt have it any other way ,simple system with money invested wisely in correct places so I ain't chasing me arse working all day and night.

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

Course I do sure I do fook all!!,work smarter not harder..out the gap every evening by 6 I click bar silage etc.wouldnt have it any other way ,simple system with money invested wisely in correct places so I ain't chasing me arse working all day and night.

That's the aim here too. For one yr I think I'll survive. I'd prefer to have the money being made and then make start spending the money.

mahoney_j

Greengrass1 wrote: »

That's the aim here too. For one yr I think I'll survive. I'd prefer to have the money being made and then make start spending the money.

I work the opposite way ,got to spend money to make money.so far so good.keeps mr collector general quite as well!!

frazzledhome

mahoney_j wrote: »

I work the opposite way ,got to spend money to make money.so far so good.keeps mr collector general quite as well!!

That position can vary greatly from farm to farm. Ability to borrow, stage of family and drawings.

Sometimes people just have to cut their cloth, put their head down and get boots on the ground.

Deepsouthwest

jaymla627 wrote: »

Whats lads plans here who are upping numbers by say by over 30% in the case of another spring like 2013 coming of a year like 2012, upping numbers here considerably too but at the same time putting away a nice bank of silage in the form of surplus paddocks and pit with a nice bit of meal going in so more silage can be got of the milking block....
In general are lads even considering this our just playing it by ear and hoping to get away with a high stocking rate and just enough conserved feed for say a 10-12 week wintering period

Feeding extra meal at the moment to make more silage sounds like financial suicide. Meal is dearer than grass and silage put together. U can justify spreading more fert so u can take out more paddocks now, or else just buy the meal when u need it.

Deepsouthwest

kevthegaff wrote: »

Some lads have it fair handy with the father helping out, the mother cooking 3 times a day and hell some of them doing the paperwork, ive been on my own from startup but listening to ye lads im starting to miss being at home!!

Same here Kev, no free family labour, everyone who does a stroke here is paid by the hr.

Feckthis

mf240 wrote: »

Milking 51 at the moment. Will probably float around the 50 55 mark.

Started with 24 cows in 2003 and built cubicles milking palour and calf houseing. Put in roads resseeding and a lot of drainage.

Happy enough now and not interested in being a busy fool.

Fair play. Just curious are you farming full time since 2003 I.e no other income?

mf240

kevthegaff wrote: »

Some lads have it fair handy with the father helping out, the mother cooking 3 times a day and hell some of them doing the paperwork, ive been on my own from startup but listening to ye lads im starting to miss being at home!!

I might be able to let you borrow the mother a couple of days a week if you can collect.

Any day bar tuesday. She does sheperds pie on tuesdays.:D:D

mf240

Feckthis wrote: »

Fair play. Just curious are you farming full time since 2003 I.e no other income?

Worked untill 09 couldnt have done it otherwise. Went fulltime then when i got on top of repayments. Couldnt of done it without help from the parents. Have a small beef enterprise on outfarms aswell.

Dawggone

mahoney_j wrote: »

Agree but grass can ultimately only take u so far,,land and nitrates are the new quotas

Where did I hear that before??

jaymla627

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Feeding extra meal at the moment to make more silage sounds like financial suicide. Meal is dearer than grass and silage put together. U can justify spreading more fert so u can take out more paddocks now, or else just buy the meal when u need it.

Feeding 5.5kg average across the herd with 40% of the herd getting 3kgs and high yielders 40 litres plus 8kgs, cows have held at 30 litres the past 90 days and are sitting on 2.15 kgs of milk solids at 3.5pr with 50% of the herd heifers....
Would you think it's a better option if I cut meal out completely watch yield drop 5-6 litres a cow along with condition score and cull rate come winter up at 30 plus % when the higher yielding ladies fall apart due to some lad on the Internet telling me it's financial suicide giving a cow producing nearly 13 euros a day of milk 2.50s worth of meal

Dawggone

I have to say that the exuberance in this thread is most enjoyable!


When all is said and done...everyone maxed out on production...will ye be better off financially?
OR will ye be running faster to stand still?


Not being a killjoy now. I've doubled numbers and might go a lot further...

Timmaay

jaymla627 wrote: »

Feeding 5.5kg average across the herd with 40% of the herd getting 3kgs and high yielders 40 litres plus 8kgs, cows have held at 30 litres the past 90 days and are sitting on 2.15 kgs of milk solids at 3.5pr with 50% of the herd heifers....
Would you think it's a better option if I cut meal out completely watch yield drop 5-6 litres a cow along with condition score and cull rate come winter up at 30 plus % when the higher yielding ladies fall apart due to some lad on the Internet telling me it's financial suicide giving a cow producing nearly 13 euros a day of milk 2.50s worth of meal

Interesting point, I've actually possibly taken a backwards step in going from manual fty in the old parlour to basic batch feeders in the new parlour. I'm slowly but surely breeding the large +400kg for milk HOs with poor fertility out of the system anyways, and the 10k premium for cashmans over the pig feeders didn't look appealing enough, basically manual fty still, and esp with no grant on feeders at the time. Anyways trying to strick a happy medium on what meal to feed at the sec, with grass flying it and good dry weather I have cut the meal back to something around 2.5kg/day, them 3 or 4 higher yielding cows are certainly down on their peak last yr (45l against 40l max this year), meal then was up to 8kgs though, condition still holding well, and the ones who usually go in calf quick seem to be holding fine. Just looking at the last milk recording (during the wet weather!!) , bf on the 2 highest yielding (37 and 40l) is dire, under 3%. Hmm maybe with the news grants which do cover feeders I should be considering a fty system, the full automatic fty Delaval system seems to be priced a lot more reasonable than other system I looked at.

mahoney_j

Dawggone wrote: »

Where did I hear that before??

Some mad lad in France ,he talks a lot of sense!!

Dawggone

mahoney_j wrote: »

Some mad lad in France ,he talks a lot of shyte!

Fixed that for you.

Greengrass1

Dawggone wrote: »

I have to say that the exuberance in this thread is most enjoyable!


When all is said and done...everyone maxed out on production...will ye be better off financially?
OR will ye be running faster to stand still?


Not being a killjoy now. I've doubled numbers and might go a lot further...

Good point. When parents bought here it was all worked out and unless they milked 100 cows it was a no go. 11 yrs later were only getting up to that number now. Now we're managing fine and have managed through the very tough yrs like 09 and 12 with alot more problems than we have now. Herd is back to the way dad had it before we moved.
There's definitely money in it. But not alot if surplus atm as alot is going back in in the form of heifer costs reseeding and fert.
I've my own SFP now but it's coming at a time now where money is starting to free up a bit.
I can even see this yr with the extra nos cash isn't as tight. I won't be like the tillage boys though where there sfp is there wage.

onyerbikepat

Digressing a little but, for those of you stocked to the limit, how much fertiliser are you spreading. Units/acre of N/P/K not including your own slurry and no slurry brought in.

Timmaay

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Good point. When parents bought here it was all worked out and unless they milked 100 cows it was a no go. 11 yrs later were only getting up to that number now. Now we're managing fine and have managed through the very tough yrs like 09 and 12 with alot more problems than we have now. Herd is back to the way dad had it before we moved.
There's definitely money in it. But not alot if surplus atm as alot is going back in in the form of heifer costs reseeding and fert.
I've my own SFP now but it's coming at a time now where money is starting to free up a bit.
I can even see this yr with the extra nos cash isn't as tight. I won't be like the tillage boys though where there sfp is there wage.

*waits for dwag to point out the obvious mert of quotas* . Not many businesses can survive on only 60/70% of the original sales projections to make the whole plan viable, moving forward will the lack of quotas, wild price swings and tighter margins allow bad luck as such go unpunished?

Kevhog1988

This is a very interesting thread

Deepsouthwest

jaymla627 wrote: »

Feeding 5.5kg average across the herd with 40% of the herd getting 3kgs and high yielders 40 litres plus 8kgs, cows have held at 30 litres the past 90 days and are sitting on 2.15 kgs of milk solids at 3.5pr with 50% of the herd heifers...
Would you think it's a better option if I cut meal out completely watch yield drop 5-6 litres a cow along with condition score and cull rate come winter up at 30 plus % when the higher yielding ladies fall apart due to some lad on the Internet telling me it's financial suicide giving a cow producing nearly 13 euros a day of milk 2.50s worth of meal

Well if that's the repurcussions of u dropping meal, then I'm afraid it's a decision that's well and truly out of ur hands! Anyway back to my original point(which seems to have ruffled ur feathers) U said ur feeding "a nice bit of meal to make more silage from the cows ground". Grass 7ish cent/kg dm, silage 14ish cent/kg dm, and 20ish cent/kg dm. I rest my case!

jaymla627

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Well if that's the repurcussions of u dropping meal, then I'm afraid it's a decision that's well and truly out of ur hands! Anyway back to my original point(which seems to have ruffled ur feathers) U said ur feeding "a nice bit of meal to make more silage from the cows ground". Grass 7ish cent/kg dm, silage 14ish cent/kg dm, and 20ish cent/kg dm. I rest my case!

Curious to how you came to a figure of 7 cent a kilo of dm is your base farm Moore park our a lad up the side of a hill in cavan who gets six month winters, then of course you have the other variables of is ground owned/rented/subject to a loan....
Then you have to factor in said cost of reseeding/maintaining/watering/fencing ground not to forget roadways which in the case of my place 20,000 grand has been spent on the last two years....
To throw out a figure of 7 cent is laughable considering the amount of variables from farm to farm and land types encountered by different farmers....

Milked out

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Digressing a little but, for those of you stocked to the limit, how much fertiliser are you spreading. Units/acre of N/P/K not including your own slurry and no slurry brought in.

Spread 235kgsN/ha last year according to the nitrates anyway. Have a low p allowance due to amount of slurry and meal fed reduces it also. K has no limit so I spread that particularly on silage ground is costly they say u should go 1 to 1 n to k I think but slurry provides a good bit too. I would imagine cash is king with regard to reseeding and low index ground.

ellewood

Milked out wrote: »

Spread 235kgsN/ha last year according to the nitrates anyway. Have a low p allowance due to amount of slurry and meal fed reduces it also. K has no limit so I spread that particularly on silage ground is costly they say u should go 1 to 1 n to k I think but slurry provides a good bit too. I would imagine cash is king with regard to reseeding and low index ground.

How many tons grown at that N ?

onyerbikepat

Milked out wrote: »

Spread 235kgsN/ha last year according to the nitrates anyway.

So about 200Kgs (4 small bags) of urea per/acre per annum.

stretch film

onyerbikepat wrote: »

So about 200Kgs (4 small bags) of urea per/acre per annum.

Iirc kgs n/ha multiply by 0.8 gives units /ac.

4bags urea about right .

Deepsouthwest

jaymla627 wrote: »

Curious to how you came to a figure of 7 cent a kilo of dm is your base farm Moore park our a lad up the side of a hill in cavan who gets six month winters, then of course you have the other variables of is ground owned/rented/subject to a loan....
Then you have to factor in said cost of reseeding/maintaining/watering/fencing ground not to forget roadways which in the case of my place 20,000 grand has been spent on the last two years....
To throw out a figure of 7 cent is laughable considering the amount of variables from farm to farm and land types encountered by different farmers....

7c/kg dm has been the figure that's been used for a while, more as a rule of thumb as anything else, the same as 14c/kgdm is used for silage and 21 c/kgdm for meal. Or the old ratio of cost for grass - silage - meal, being 1-2-3, which I'm sure u'll say u've never heard of either, or else will say is a load of sh1t! Anyway back to my original point of feeding more meal to cows to slowdown their intake of grass so u can make more silage being ludicrous. If it's such a good idea why stop at 6 kgs, why not house the cows feed all ration and make silage off ur whole milking block!!

milkprofit

160 increase to 220
60 dry cows on kale replacements contract reared
Will hopefully build parlour and cubicles topless when cash flow allowes

jaymla627

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

7c/kg dm has been the figure that's been used for a while, more as a rule of thumb as anything else, the same as 14c/kgdm is used for silage and 21 c/kgdm for meal. Or the old ratio of cost for grass - silage - meal, being 1-2-3, which I'm sure u'll say u've never heard of either, or else will say is a load of sh1t! Anyway back to my original point of feeding more meal to cows to slowdown their intake of grass so u can make more silage being ludicrous. If it's such a good idea why stop at 6 kgs, why not house the cows feed all ration and make silage off ur whole milking block!!

Taking out all this ground for silage also means that at the minute 60% of grazing block is coming back into after grass over the next three weeks, no bollocking with topper our trying to make cows eat down stemmy crap setting cows up for the summer and pumping out milk along with a bank of 150 bales of high quality wraps to buffer cows coming into winter...
You sound like jack Kennedys love child disregarding 6kg of meal going into a animal giving 34 litres of milk as ludicrous, reading up on the journal a monitor farm with a very similar profile to mine age wise is doing 18 litres a day with no meal going in so I'm achieving 12 litres more a day and only .2 behind on pr on 5 kilos of meal get a calculator out and see if that's profitable

Greengrass1

jaymla627 wrote: »

Taking out all this ground for silage also means that at the minute 60% of grazing block is coming back into after grass over the next three weeks, no bollocking with topper our trying to make cows eat down stemmy crap setting cows up for the summer and pumping out milk along with a bank of 150 bales of high quality wraps to buffer cows coming into winter...
You sound like jack Kennedys love child disregarding 6kg of meal going into a animal giving 34 litres of milk as ludicrous, reading up on the journal a monitor farm with a very similar profile to mine age wise is doing 18 litres a day with no meal going in so I'm achieving 12 litres more a day and only .2 behind on pr on 5 kilos of meal get a calculator out and see if that's profitable

Difference that man only started last yr with a herd of heifers half are first calvers and half are second calvers. He's chucking out great solids yes yeild not great but what's he going to get for even a kg if meal? A litre? Those heifers aren't under pressure at all they don't need meal

kevthegaff

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Difference that man only started last yr with a herd of heifers half are first calvers and half are second calvers. He's chucking out great solids yes yeild not great but what's he going to get for even a kg if meal? A litre? Those heifers aren't under pressure at all they don't need meal

1kg=26c 1litre high solids= 32c he should get a good conversion when theyre milking that poorly

dar31

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Difference that man only started last yr with a herd of heifers half are first calvers and half are second calvers. He's chucking out great solids yes yeild not great but what's he going to get for even a kg if meal? A litre? Those heifers aren't under pressure at all they don't need meal

I think he might have been on OAd till April 1st which knocked back yield a fair bit

jaymla627

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Difference that man only started last yr with a herd of heifers half are first calvers and half are second calvers. He's chucking out great solids yes yeild not great but what's he going to get for even a kg if meal? A litre? Those heifers aren't under pressure at all they don't need meal

In year 3 here with 60% of herd 1st and 2nd lactation have crossbred jersey/hol heifers of a shottle stock bull currently doing 30 litres gorgeous animals to look at and would love a herd of them, why lads associate crossbred cows as short stumpy cows with low yield amazes me one cross of a good typey hol as above with say plus 400kg of milk you end up with a cracking animal that has nearly the solids of a jr and the milk of a holstein with a lot less issues management wise, any herd no matter the breeding involved only producing 18 litres a day the last week of May will struggle to produce 4000 litres a cow for the year

mahoney_j

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Difference that man only started last yr with a herd of heifers half are first calvers and half are second calvers. He's chucking out great solids yes yeild not great but what's he going to get for even a kg if meal? A litre? Those heifers aren't under pressure at all they don't need meal

Prevention from tetany for 1,

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

Prevention from tetany for 1,

Would be badly wanted looking out the window tonite too, it's more like autumn weather at the minute than the middle of summer

mf240

Some lads must think cows are solar powered.


Small bit of meal is a huge help to a cow during peak milking / breeding ect.

jaymla627

mf240 wrote: »

Some lads must think cows are solar powered.


Small bit of meal is a huge help to a cow during peak milking / breeding ect.

Don't you mean grass powered the poor yokes would be long dead if they where relying on sun the past 5 weeks haha

Greengrass1

mahoney_j wrote: »

Prevention from tetany for 1,

All mins in water using a terra system.